Understanding Metavariants., If someone could lend a hand. Options

[Mäx]

You haven't look too closely at SURGE, have you? SURGE is basically raising the cap on how many bp worth of qualities you can take (with a limit on which qualities apply) as well as allowing you take a slew of qualities you can't otherwise get. Drop 15bp on SURGE, and you get 30Bp worth of positive and 15 of negative, right? Leaves you 20 more you can use on positive qualities, effectively allowing you to spend 50bp on positive qualities. Nartaki give you 15 (shiva arms) + 35 (normal) = 50. Huh... You would gladly pay to play the nartaki because you're bad at math, it seems. Just Surge, and you get the same effect, only you get to choose which qualities you get, and have access to the whole list of metagenic qualities for all of your quality points, where the Nartaki does not have that option for the 35 points.

Or maybe you just suck at understanding in general, being nartaki doesnt stop me from getting surge.
So how many point of qualities do i get oh thats right 65 and thats more then 50, now who fails math forever.
Next time think before being a dickhead.

[Draco18s]

Next time think before being a dickhead.

Ad hominem attack. Please refrain.

[Mäx]

Ad hominem attack. Please refrain.

Sorry i take it little personally when someone is talking out of their ass and then have the nerve to say i suck at math.

[Rystefn]

Or maybe you just suck at understanding in general, being nartaki doesnt stop me from getting surge.
So how many point of qualities do i get oh thats right 65 and thats more then 50, now who fails math forever.
Next time think before being a dickhead.

...So in your universe, being able to get 50 is the same as having a "very tight" limit of 35? Sorry, but you're still bad at math, then. Much worse than I thought. Please note, by the way, that this is not the same as saying you suck at math. One is an assessment of your skills, the other is personal attack. It's subtle difference, dickhead.

[Mäx]

...So in your universe, being able to get 50 is the same as having a "very tight" limit of 35? Sorry, but you're still bad at math, then. Much worse than I thought. Please note, by the way, that this is not the same as saying you suck at math. One is an assessment of your skills, the other is personal attack. It's subtle difference, dickhead.

Numbers dont really matter, my point was your paying premium for being able to get more qualities then is normally possible.
Its totally irrevelant to that point whether that normal limit is 35,50 or 2 billion.
You understand now smartguy or do you need a wireframe model.
I think i have to take it back you dont fail at math, you just fail reading comprehension for life.

[Axl]

This thread has turned ugly. It's time a moderator blocked it.

[Rystefn]

Only it does matter, since we're talking about how much you're willing to spend on the metatype for the bonus. Spending 25 bp for a .0005% boost is notably different than paying 25bp for a 10000% boost, right? Unless you're bad at math, of course, in which case, it wouldn't matter if it was 35, 50, or 2 billion.

[Mäx]

Only it does matter, since we're talking about how much you're willing to spend on the metatype for the bonus. Spending 25 bp for a .0005% boost is notably different than paying 25bp for a 10000% boost, right? Unless you're bad at math, of course, in which case, it wouldn't matter if it was 35, 50, or 2 billion.

whether you need those qualities or not is only thing that matters.
If the consept is someone who has four-arms and you need all the possible quality points for the concept to work, it really doesnt matter how much of points it is you can normally spend.
For example if i wanted my Type-o system adept to have four arms, making her Nartaki is the only possible way to go.

[Rystefn]

whether you need those qualities or not is only thing that matters.
If the consept is someone who has four-arms and you need all the possible quality points for the concept to work, it really doesnt matter how much of points it is you can normally spend.
For example if i wanted my Type-o system adept to have four arms, making her Nartaki is the only possible way to go.

...and if it cost you 100bp or 5 to play the Nartaki, that wouldn't change. What would change, I think, is whether or not you'd "gladly pay" that cost for the ability. More to the point, let's compare this to the Koborokuru. They cost 10bp relative to the dwarf, gain everything the dwarf has, and carry a net 0bp worth of Metagenic qualities. So what you're saying is that it's fair to charge 10bp to allow you exceed the normal quality limit by 15, and to also charge the same 10bp to allow you to exceed the same normal quality limit by 5? This is good math to you as well, I assume. I mean if 35=2 billion, then 15=5, right?

Let's keep in mind, as well, that you aren't actually paying this cost to exceed the quality limit. You're paying it to play a rare metatype, according to the designers. So this, all of it, is a [/i]post hoc[/i] rationalization of an arbitrary rule.

[Draco18s]

5*0 = 100*0

a = 5
b = 100
c = 0

ac = bc

(ac)/c = (bc)/c

a = b

5 = 100

AmIright?

[Mäx]

...and if it cost you 100bp or 5 to play the Nartaki, that wouldn't change. What would change, I think, is whether or not you'd "gladly pay" that cost for the ability. More to the point, let's compare this to the Koborokuru. They cost 10bp relative to the dwarf, gain everything the dwarf has, and carry a net 0bp worth of Metagenic qualities. So what you're saying is that it's fair to charge 10bp to allow you exceed the normal quality limit by 15, and to also charge the same 10bp to allow you to exceed the same normal quality limit by 5? This is good math to you as well, I assume. I mean if 35=2 billion, then 15=5, right?

And now you really do fail math forever.
Concidering that what your saing doesn't make aby sense at all in your example.
Nartaki pays 25 to exceed the limit by 15 and koborokuru 10 to exceed it by 5 so imnot exactly sure whats your point there again.

[Rystefn]

5*0 = 100*0

a = 5
b = 100
c = 0

ac = bc

(ac)/c = (bc)/c

a = b

5 = 100

AmIright?

Have to love those divide by zero errors, right?

And now you really do fail math forever.
Concidering that what your saing doesn't make aby sense at all in your example.
Nartaki pays 25 to exceed the limit by 15 and koborokuru 10 to exceed it by 5 so imnot exactly sure whats your point there again.

No. Nartaki pay 25 to exceed the limit and Shiva Arms. Shiva Arms cost 15bp, remember?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No. Nartaki pay 25 to exceed the limit and Shiva Arms. Shiva Arms cost 15bp, remember?

Actually Nartaki pay 25bp to play a Rare Race, Exceed the Limit and Possess Shiva Arms... which means that the ability to exceed the limit, and the cost of its Rarity, cost some combination of 10bp... works for me...

Keep the Faith

[Draco18s]

Rare Race

I wish people would stop using this as a justification for something to cost more points. In this scenario I'm not going to argue that Nartaki should be cheaper, as they've got other things going for them, but it's a pretty bad rational (because if anything "rare" is a flaw).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I wish people would stop using this as a justification for something to cost more points. In this scenario I'm not going to argue that Nartaki should be cheaper, as they've got other things going for them, but it's a pretty bad rational (because if anything "rare" is a flaw).

Just keeping in tune with the original ideas of the topic...
I do agree that the Nartaki is a fairly interesting idea, without rarity needing any actual bearing...

But in actuality, rarity does impact cost, in a lot of ways for a lot of things... you may not agree with it in a game perspective, but it is often true nontheless...

Keep the Faith

[Glyph]

I wish people would stop using this as a justification for something to cost more points. In this scenario I'm not going to argue that Nartaki should be cheaper, as they've got other things going for them, but it's a pretty bad rational (because if anything "rare" is a flaw).

In this particular case, it is an attempt to enforce rarity by making it a less attractive option. Or so we have been told. I am still dubious about that rationale, though. It doesn't hold up when you look at the metatypes, since some of the equally rare ones are actually a bargain. Personally, I think it is a bit of an after the fact justification.

[Draco18s]

Personally, I think it is a bit of an after the fact justification.

As do I.

[Rystefn]

Personally, I think it is a bit of an after the fact justification.

Exactly.

[Cardul]

Well, to look at the Nartaki example, they are paying 10 points for a nebulous *something* and Shiva Arms is a 15 point quality. Now, what about this: 15 points requires Surge 2, which is 10 points, 20 points of positive qualities, 10 points of negative qualities. The Nartaki do not have those 10 points of Negative qualities. So, you could say that the
10 points are the balance of what they do not have, not just what they do have.

For the person who is saying that the Nartaki and other metavariants do not allow you to have more qualities then
you buy as qualities: Highest grade of Surge is 30 points of qualities, (15 points of which count towards
your total), and then you have the 20 remaining points. However, you ALSO get the traits of the Metavariant.
So, please, build a character using only 50 point that duplicates the character concept you had planned for those
meta variants, and does so only using Surge and the maximum build points in qualities.

[Rystefn]

So... you pay ten points to not have five points of negative qualities? That would be interesting if it were true, but we were told that we're paying the ten points because Nartaki are rare, remember? By making the argument, you're calling the devs liars, too. Puts you pretty square on my side of the argument.

Oh, and it's easy to duplicate the Nartaki with SURGE, and more. Take Surge III (15bp). You now have 15bp of negs and 30 of pos. You have 20bp of positive left. Giving you a total of 50bp towards positive qualities. You take Shiva Arms for 15, leaving you... 35. You can do everything the Nartaki can do now, including taking any qualities you might have taken instead of SURGE, only now, you can spend your 35 on regular qualities or metagenic qualities, as you desire. You don't even have to take the Striking Skin Pigmentation, if you don't want it. Just pick something else, instead. Keep in mind that the Nartaki and the changeling both will be getting Distinctive Style added on either way, so you should grab some negative traits that reflect this and have little other game effect. Done. Any other challenges you'd like to set?

[Mäx]

So... you pay ten points to not have five points of negative qualities? That would be interesting if it were true, but we were told that we're paying the ten points because Nartaki are rare, remember? By making the argument, you're calling the devs liars, too. Puts you pretty square on my side of the argument.

Oh, and it's easy to duplicate the Nartaki with SURGE, and more. Take Surge III (15bp). You now have 15bp of negs and 30 of pos. You have 20bp of positive left. Giving you a total of 50bp towards positive qualities. You take Shiva Arms for 15, leaving you... 35. You can do everything the Nartaki can do now, including taking any qualities you might have taken instead of SURGE, only now, you can spend your 35 on regular qualities or metagenic qualities, as you desire. You don't even have to take the Striking Skin Pigmentation, if you don't want it. Just pick something else, instead. Keep in mind that the Nartaki and the changeling both will be getting Distinctive Style added on either way, so you should grab some negative traits that reflect this and have little other game effect. Done. Any other challenges you'd like to set?

Make a four-armed adept with Type-o system without using nartaki. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Rystefn]

Make a four-armed adept with Type-o system without using nartaki. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

Make a six-armed adept with Type-O system at all. More to the point, make an adept with Celerity and Type-O system without using Koborokuru... This is equally impossible, and yet the bp price is different. Why is that? Because the price for a new combination of abilities you invented is just as much a post hoc rationalization for what is actually nothing more than an arbitrary line as the "rarity cost" the devs are trying to sell us.

Remember the main point here - you making up hypothetical reasons of particular instances of semi-balance don't work when they 1) don't apply equally and 2) don't resemble what the game designers claim to be the reasons.

In the end, any point you make about the special advantage you gain from any given metavariant means exactly nothing unless it applies in the same way to every other metavariant. There is exactly one idea that adequately explains the bp cost of every metavariant: arbitrary rules decisions. Nothing else works. Nothing else fits it all together. Doubly so since we have been given the "rarity cost" explanation, which now must be fit into every explanation you try to make.