Understanding Metavariants., If someone could lend a hand. Options

[The Jopp]

Hmm...

I cannot find that Metavariant abilities cannot be stacked with Changeling abilities in Runner Companion

After all, metavariants arent changelings, they are a metatype divergence and SHOULD be able to buy the changeling qualities as well.

You want to have a drooling horde of faithful servants after you? Pick a dryad and take Glamour + Changeling Quality Glamour.

Want to be called Stilts? Picka a Wakyambi with Elongated Limbs Changeling Quality.

Of course, you get twice the bonus, but also twice the drawback.

A Nartaki With X8 Arms, sure, just pay for it.

[Aerospider]

Hmm...

I cannot find that Metavariant abilities cannot be stacked with Changeling abilities in Runner Companion

IMHO it is implied that qualities only stack where it is explicitly allowed. For example, an elf cannot take a quality bestowing low-light vision (or maybe they CAN but it's just burning BPs) whereas an infected character could cash in on a more severe allergy than that listed (gaining the difference in BPs). Personally, I'd decree that choosing a race/metatype with a given quality means the player has 'bought' that quality and therefore cannot buy it again.

In cases like the glamour example, the GM could rule that some dryads are even more 'glamourous' than others but then each quality should be assessed individually (as and when) to determine whether stacking will keep balance and fit the table's interpretation of the Sixth World.

WRT SURGE qualities specifically, I'd be inclined to say no since the quality is a genetic expression. I wouldn't consider that the metavarient has in some way been granted a different baseline (for want of a better word) to others – the genome has already mutated so the quality has already been bought and applied.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

These exotic types were introduced in Runner's Companion, so I don't see why anyone would have a character concept that is hung up on one certain type. Xapiri Thepe and Oni are lame - so why play them? Leave them as NPCs or whatever. Yeah, they could have all been balanced better, but if you go too far doing that, then everything has a dreary sameness, and character creation choices don't matter as much.

How about because I would want to play an Oni?

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Native Americans are pretty rare too, and Australian Aborigines. Neither has a point cost associated with them.

There is nothing special about them though... which is why there is no point cost...

Keep the Faith

[HappyDaze]

There's really nothing special about Oni either. Sure, you have some cosmetic effects, but that's about all you get with the ethnic groups I've mentioned too compared to the dominant population groups.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There's really nothing special about Oni either. Sure, you have some cosmetic effects, but that's about all you get with the ethnic groups I've mentioned too compared to the dominant population groups.

The fact that they are a variant of Ork says that they are...

Keep the Faith

[Glyph]

Metagenetic qualities can't be "doubled up". If your metatype already has one of those qualities, you can't buy it again - you already have it.

But the qualities you get with your metatype don't count against the SURGE quality, either. If you have a dryad with SURGE III, you start out with glamour, and then get to pick 30/15 more points in qualities. Or, if glamour was all you wanted, you could be a dryad instead of getting SURGE, and have all 35 points available for other positive qualities.

[Udoshi]

its worth noting that having access to metagenetic qualities through metavariants let you take not only positive qualities, but negative ones to - and get points for them.

[Draco18s]

The fact that they are a variant of Ork says that they are...

Keep the Faith

So they're ethnic orcs the same way Native Americans are...ethnic humans.

Gasp.

[BishopMcQ]

This argument has been hashed out several times since 2008 when the book was released. LINK Here is the link to Synner's post. He was the Line Developer for the book and explains it all. If you read the rest of the thread, both before and after, you will see some further explanations by other notable posters.

My recommendation, play with the rules as they are presented unless you disagree. If they aren't fun for you and your group, sit down with everyone and hash out a new set. They work fine for my table, but my people have issues with other sections. We all have our own quirks, play with the cards you are dealt or trade cards with a partner until everyone likes their hand.

Got any fours?

[Apathy]

While that may be the equation they used, it ignores the fact that not all attributes are equal (e.g. Agi is way more useful than Str in every profession, and physical stats are easier to cyber up than mental ones), and bonuses are more valuable than negatives (which only decrease your cap, not your actual stat value.)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So they're ethnic orcs the same way Native Americans are...ethnic humans.

Gasp.

With Striking Skin Pigmentation... Gasp... which Native Americans do not have... Gasp...

Nitpik, but there you go... If you don't like them, don't play them... I happen to like them, don't mind the extra cost, and even have a few concepts for them... especially since our campaign takes place in Asia...

Keep the Faith

[Draco18s]

With Striking Skin Pigmentation...

Which is a flaw, not a positive quality.

So why am I paying positive BP over an orc?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Which is a flaw, not a positive quality.

So why am I paying positive BP over an orc?

So What... so it is a flaw... big deal, you are unique, and choose to play something that is different... so, why complain about the costs... sometimes it is not about the mechanics...

Oh, Silly me, this is Dumpshock... what was I thinking... Sorry...

Keep the Faith

[Nimsul]

This argument has been hashed out several times since 2008 when the book was released. LINK Here is the link to Synner's post. He was the Line Developer for the book and explains it all. If you read the rest of the thread, both before and after, you will see some further explanations by other notable posters.

My recommendation, play with the rules as they are presented unless you disagree. If they aren't fun for you and your group, sit down with everyone and hash out a new set. They work fine for my table, but my people have issues with other sections. We all have our own quirks, play with the cards you are dealt or trade cards with a partner until everyone likes their hand.

Got any fours?

Thank you for the link. I didn't see this topic in the search fields or I wouldn't have reopened this can of worms.

[toturi]

Which is a flaw, not a positive quality.

So why am I paying positive BP over an orc?

Because you are paying for the privilege of playing an oni. It is your choice and that is the cost.

[MatrixJargon]

This is, of course, with everybody forgetting that the ultimate and final BP costs of absolutely everything is the GMs call. If he thinks there is a balance issue, he can deal with it accordingly with his GM magic.

[toturi]

This is, of course, with everybody forgetting that the ultimate and final BP costs of absolutely everything is the GMs call. If he thinks there is a balance issue, he can deal with it accordingly with his GM magic.

Actually he doesn't need to think there is a balance issue, if he wants to house rule it; everything is his game is subject to his whim if he wants to use GM magic.

[Draco18s]

Because you are paying for the privilege of playing an oni. It is your choice and that is the cost.

Ha, I'm sorry. The two of us must be talking about completely different notions of balance here.

A game would be called unbalanced if one or more players have an unfair advantage over the others.

A more complex definition of game balance that critics have described is that, when players have multiple options or routes to victory, most or all of these options are about equally effective or feasible. To be perfectly balanced, each of these options would have to be strategically identical (in which case they wouldn't be substantial choices at all). In a game where various options (such as armies in a real-time strategy game, fighters in a fighting game, or character classes in a role-playing game) have significant qualitative differences between them, the game is balanced if the options are roughly equally likely to lead to success despite their differences. In a suitably balanced game, players would make such choices based on their personal preference, strengths, and playing style, rather than on an inherent advantage in one option. If one option were weaker than the others, then it would rarely be selected by any player and will not contribute to the complexity of the game.

When trying to create a complex or strategically rich game, game designers typically strive to maintain balance by using a careful selection of game mechanics, while offering the greatest possible number of these options, which in turn increases the difficulty of balancing the game. Balanced games are generally more enjoyable, and are considered better-made, than unbalanced ones.

You're asking me, as a player, to pay an in-game resource (BP) for an...out-of-game...sense of personal satisfaction?

[toturi]

Ha, I'm sorry. The two of us must be talking about completely different notions of balance here.

You're asking me, as a player, to pay an in-game resource (BP) for an...out-of-game...sense of personal satisfaction?

No, I am telling you as a player to suck it up and pay the in-game resource for the in-game effect of being able to use that race.

A game would be called unbalanced if one or more players have an unfair advantage over the others.

It is your choice to choose that race. Nobody has an unfair advantage over you.

[Draco18s]

No, I am telling you as a player to suck it up and pay the in-game resource for the in-game effect of being able to use that race.

Having to tell someone to "suck it up and deal with it" is not:
1) A way to convince them that you're right
or
2) Very nice.

It is your choice to choose that race. Nobody has an unfair advantage over another.

Oh, I'm pretty sure that a rule that said, "for 10 BP you inhaled too much helium as a child and thus are not as capable as everyone around you" would never be chosen because it's not balanced (why take an inferior choice?) which is exactly what playing an Oni over an orc does. The other players are, effectively, 10 or more BP stronger than you are because you spent extra BP on air.

[BetaFlame]

So What... so it is a flaw... big deal, you are unique, and choose to play something that is different... so, why complain about the costs... sometimes it is not about the mechanics...

No, I am telling you as a player to suck it up and pay the in-game resource for the in-game effect of being able to use that race.

Sorry, but these two posts smack of flippant arrogance and a rediculous sense of closing your eyes and chanting "booksarerightbooksarerightbooksareright".

Here's something to consider. Books are written by people, and people are sometimes wrong.

Regardless of your personal feelings on the matter, at some point all players have to take a hard look at their character and say "Damn, how effective is he gonna be when the shit hits the fan?" If they spent around 30bps gaining penalties, they are gonna fall into the category of "not very effective". The metavarients are flavorful and nice, but in a game where I expected to have to, you know, roll dice to take actions I wouldn't play one. I'd rather stick with a normal metarace and use SURGE if I felt the need to make a off-shoot race.

The metavarients are terribly balance. You can argue about "rarity" and "special snowflake" all you want, but unless you can point out a Quality with a point value for Rare, math says they are imbalanced.

[Rystefn]

I'm sorry but I utterly fail to see how "If you don't like it, don't play that kind of character" makes a numerically inferior choice suddenly balanced. Am I missing something? While the Ares Alpha is is (in most situation) the superior AR, it at least has the common decency to cost more. If there were a more expensive one that was exactly the same except it glitched on 2s as well as 1s, would you defend it, and tell people who called it worthless to "suck it up"?

[toturi]

Having to tell someone to "suck it up and deal with it" is not:
1) A way to convince them that you're right
or
2) Very nice.

Oh, I'm pretty sure that a rule that said, "for 10 BP you inhaled too much helium as a child and thus are not as capable as everyone around you" would never be chosen because it's not balanced (why take an inferior choice?) which is exactly what playing an Oni over an orc does. The other players are, effectively, 10 or more BP stronger than you are because you spent extra BP on air.

I do not need to convince you I am right. I know I am right. You just need to be told that I am. I am not nice.

Yes, precisely, and that is the cost of your choice. The writers in costing the metavariants as they have are making sure that there is a disincentive for you to choose oni.

Sorry, but these two posts smack of flippant arrogance and a rediculous sense of closing your eyes and chanting "booksarerightbooksarerightbooksareright".

I'm sorry but I utterly fail to see how "If you don't like it, don't play that kind of character" makes a numerically inferior choice suddenly balanced.

The books just are, like the earthquake in Haiti just happened. Life isn't fair, the costs of various options do not need to be equally viable or even nearly so; at least in character generation, you get to make a choice. The balance is thus: You have a choice. Choose, you do not have to choose the inferior choice.

[Rystefn]

The books just are, like the earthquake in Haiti just happened. Life isn't fair, the costs of various options do not need to be equally viable or even nearly so; at least in character generation, you get to make a choice. The balance is thus: You have a choice. Choose, you do not have to choose the inferior choice.

Only the books were written by people. People who claim that this is balanced and fair. If a human person (or group of them) had caused the earthquake in Haiti and said that is was fair to punish them for their choice to live in Haiti, or if the game was developed by uncontrolled geological forces (or even if the devs said "yeah, screw Oni, life's not fair") you might have a valid comparison.

None of which actually explains what makes you think "You don't have to play the unbalanced character" is the same as "this character is balanced." I find myself wondering if you even understand what the word "balance" means.

Oh, and I don't see you telling the people of Haiti to "suck it up." I find that telling.