Magic and Manifesting, What can you do while manifesting? Options

[macd21]

Ran a short SR campaign a few years ago, but have forgotten more about the rules than I remember. I may be running it again in the near future and am trying to pick up as much as I can again. One thing that confuses me is manifesting. What impact can a spirit have on the real world while manifesting? Can it use its powers on the real world? Likewise a mage in the astral manifesting. If a mage is manifesting can he cast spells at real world targets, or can he only be seen and communicate with them?

[Nows7]

Spirits manifesting can act on the physical world. Use powers, shake hands, bash heads.

Magicians "manifesting" can be seen and heard by living beings, but not by cameras. They cannot act on the pysical world. They can only cast mana spells, and only at ASTRAL targets. They CANNOT manifest, then manabolt your face off.

[Medicineman]

Sorry,but thats partially Wrong
Spirits don't Manifest, they Materialise !
Manifesting is simply Making yoursellf visible for Mundanes. The Mage stays in the Astralspace,views from the Astralspace,etc. He's not on the material Plane.
He's just making himself visible to mundanes (he can't be recorded either) to communicate with them ,thats all

Hough!
Medicineman

[macd21]

Sorry,but thats partially Wrong
Spirits don't Manifest, they Materialise !

Spirits can manifest (SR4A 193), but I take it they can't use their powers on material targets unless they materialise?

So, a mage can't target material targets while manifesting. This leads to another question - how are mages useful in runs without astral opposition? They are unlikely to have more than one IP if they aren't astral, which (as far as I can tell) severely limits their usefulness in combat. Sure, they can be be useful when it comes to astral scouting and the like, but once the bullets start flying they have to keep their heads down. Is the Increase Reflexes a total no-brainer for any combat mage?

[Summerstorm]

1. This leads to another question - how are mages useful in runs without astral opposition?

2. Is the Increase Reflexes a total no-brainer for any combat mage?

1: they are just THE KINGS of the world then. No Astral opposition means no counterspelling, which pretty much means that all your spells will have always full effect. No one's brain is secure againt your mental manipulations and illusions, and your combat spells will have a HUGE effect. (Discounting the dudes with some innate magical protection, like Fomoris)

2: Well, there are some without it... but really four times the actions, and all you need is 5 karma and a spellbattery... i mean sustaining focus. For combat-casting really USEFUL.

If you are really chicken with being physical present... it is now allowed to summon spirits while astral (PLEASE show me it is not so). So you can always "send" down spirits to interact with the real world and stay in the astralworld. But your teammates will hate you for that. (And summoning around all the time can give a nasty backlash with drain)

[Medicineman]

Yeah,OK they can manifest,but they can do nil (just like the Mage) 'cept communicating. If they want to affect the Mundane World,they have to materialise

1. This leads to another question - how are mages useful in runs without astral opposition?
No it doesn't at all
mage can do so much besides casting Spells and Summoning Spirits.They can go and spy Astrally,
Counterspelling,etc

They are unlikely to have more than one IP if they aren't astral, which (as far as I can tell) severely limits their usefulness in combat
If you're playing a Combat Mage there are quite a few possibilities to get more than 1 IP and you should be using at least one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Assuming,that a Mage has only 1 IP is like assuming all Ki-Adepts are magical Streetsamurai Clones (Nearsighted) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

HokaHey
Medicineman

[macd21]

1: they are just THE KINGS of the world then. No Astral opposition means no counterspelling, which pretty much means that all your spells will have always full effect. No one's brain is secure againt your mental manipulations and illusions, and your combat spells will have a HUGE effect. (Discounting the dudes with some innate magical protection, like Fomoris)

Sure, no counterspelling sounds great. However, if you only have 1 IP, by the time you've cast your illusion either a) you've been shot 4 times and had your head cut off or b) your friends the street sam and combat adept have shot the targets 4 times and cut their heads off.

Yeah,OK they can manifest,but they can do nil (just like the Mage) 'cept communicating. If they want to affect the Mundane World,they have to materialise

Gotcha. Just wanted to make sure I had that right.

They are unlikely to have more than one IP if they aren't astral, which (as far as I can tell) severely limits their usefulness in combat
If you're playing a Combat Mage there are quite a few possibilities to get more than 1 IP and you should be using at least one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Assuming,that a Mage has only 1 IP is like assuming all Ki-Adepts are magical Streetsamurai Clones (Nearsighted) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Meh. I'm thinking of just eliminating extra IPs from the game completely. Cause more problems that they're worth.

[Karoline]

Sure, no counterspelling sounds great. However, if you only have 1 IP, by the time you've cast your illusion either a) you've been shot 4 times and had your head cut off or b) your friends the street sam and combat adept have shot the targets 4 times and cut their heads off.

Well, first off the mage gets to act in the first IP along with everyone that has 4IPs, so mage will get to do something before it is all over. And of course very few people actually have the full 4 IPs. Most enemies will have 1-2 and most runners will have 2-3. So yeah, SS is going to get in a few extra shots, but the fact is that in general, if there is no astral opposition, the mage is going to do in one turn what it takes the SS 2-3 combat turns to accomplish. (Twin casting F10 stunballs to take out basically everything in sight, mind controling a couple people to attack their allies, taking out at least 2 people per person mind controlled and so on.)

Gotcha. Just wanted to make sure I had that right.

Yeah, gotta be careful with the terms. Manifesting is basically "Oh look, a ghosty!" and has no real affect on what the mage/spirit can do. Materialization is basically "I'm physical now, feel the pain."

Meh. I'm thinking of just eliminating extra IPs from the game completely. Cause more problems that they're worth.

Why? It is a major decision point for SSs and Adepts as they have to decide how much essence/PP they want to trade for IPs. It is a gap that helps define the difference between a combative type and the mage/hacker/joe average security guard.

[Karoline]

Sure, no counterspelling sounds great. However, if you only have 1 IP, by the time you've cast your illusion either a) you've been shot 4 times and had your head cut off or b) your friends the street sam and combat adept have shot the targets 4 times and cut their heads off.

Well, first off the mage gets to act in the first IP along with everyone that has 4IPs, so mage will get to do something before it is all over. And of course very few people actually have the full 4 IPs. Most enemies will have 1-2 and most runners will have 2-3. So yeah, SS is going to get in a few extra shots, but the fact is that in general, if there is no astral opposition, the mage is going to do in one turn what it takes the SS 2-3 combat turns to accomplish. (Twin casting F10 stunballs to take out basically everything in sight, mind controling a couple people to attack their allies, taking out at least 2 people per person mind controlled and so on.)

Gotcha. Just wanted to make sure I had that right.

Yeah, gotta be careful with the terms. Manifesting is basically "Oh look, a ghosty!" and has no real affect on what the mage/spirit can do. Materialization is basically "I'm physical now, feel the pain."

Meh. I'm thinking of just eliminating extra IPs from the game completely. Cause more problems that they're worth.

Why? It is a major decision point for SSs and Adepts as they have to decide how much essence/PP they want to trade for IPs. It is a gap that helps define the difference between a combative type and the mage/hacker/joe average security guard.

[macd21]

Well, first off the mage gets to act in the first IP along with everyone that has 4IPs, so mage will get to do something before it is all over. And of course very few people actually have the full 4 IPs. Most enemies will have 1-2 and most runners will have 2-3. So yeah, SS is going to get in a few extra shots, but the fact is that in general, if there is no astral opposition, the mage is going to do in one turn what it takes the SS 2-3 combat turns to accomplish. (Twin casting F10 stunballs to take out basically everything in sight, mind controling a couple people to attack their allies, taking out at least 2 people per person mind controlled and so on.)

Why? It is a major decision point for SSs and Adepts as they have to decide how much essence/PP they want to trade for IPs. It is a gap that helps define the difference between a combative type and the mage/hacker/joe average security guard.

Because, from a play perspective, it's a terrible mechanic. In fact it's one of the biggest complaints I've heard from people who used to play the game.

Even if the Mage can cast a spell in her first IP that takes out half the opposition, for the rest of the turn the player is left sitting doing nothing. In our last campaign we had a SS (4IP), an adept (3 IP), an assassin (2IP) a hacker (1 - 3IP) and a mage (1IP). After her IP the mage had to wait through 10 + IPs for the other characters to do stuff, + whatever the NPCs were doing.

I don't mind SSs and adepts being better in combat than the mage/hacker/security guard, but focusing too much time and attention on one type of player at the expense of the others is bad IMO. With increased attributes and other abilities I think the SS and adepts will be powerful enough without giving them 4 times as much to do as the other characters.

[spica2501]

The reason that a lot of old players complain about multiple initiative passes is because in 1st-3rd edition the players with extra initiative passes took them before everyone else. In 4th edition, everyone has a turn before those with extra passes get to act again.

Also, If you are still complaining about mages not getting more than one initiative pass, you haven't been paying attention to what has been said. Increase reflexes can grant you up to 4 IPs, and even if you cannot afford a sustaining focus you can always use drugs. Psyche allows you to sustain a spell at only a -1 penalty to your action, which is a pretty minor trade off for 4 IPs, and either Jazz or Cram can be used to give you an extra initiative pass if you do not have increase reflexes or do not want to sustain a spell. Heck, when given the choice between drugs and wired reflexes 1, I choose drugs every time. They're far cheaper.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Heck, when given the choice between drugs and wired reflexes 1, I choose drugs every time. They're far cheaper.

Really? You can never run out of Wired Reflexes, and they are always there... try using your drugs when you have none or can't get them...

Keep the Faith

[spica2501]

I can buy 1100 doses of cram for the price of wired reflexes 1. Even if I buy an auto injector and fake license (cram is only restricted after all), I can still buy ~950 doses of cram for the price of wired reflexes 1. Cram also has an availability of 2, so it's not hard to get.

[macd21]

The reason that a lot of old players complain about multiple initiative passes is because in 1st-3rd edition the players with extra initiative passes took them before everyone else. In 4th edition, everyone has a turn before those with extra passes get to act again.

No, these were complaints from 4ed players. Some had played earlier editions, others hadn't. The fact is that players with fewer IP got less 'screen time' that others, amongst other problems. The character with the most IPs gets the most attention and accomplishes the most in any given combat encounter. It can leave the other players feeling superfluous.

Also, If you are still complaining about mages not getting more than one initiative pass, you haven't been paying attention to what has been said. Increase reflexes can grant you up to 4 IPs, and even if you cannot afford a sustaining focus you can always use drugs. Psyche allows you to sustain a spell at only a -1 penalty to your action, which is a pretty minor trade off for 4 IPs, and either Jazz or Cram can be used to give you an extra initiative pass if you do not have increase reflexes or do not want to sustain a spell. Heck, when given the choice between drugs and wired reflexes 1, I choose drugs every time. They're far cheaper.

The Increased Reflexes spell seems to be pretty much required to make a mage viable (unless you want to take drugs or cram your head full of 'ware) - I get that. I just don't like it. I think it's bad game design and not much fun (and my players agree). I don't feel that IPs add much (anything?) to the game, so I think I'll try and see if they can be removed from the game without too much difficulty.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I can buy 1100 doses of cram for the price of wired reflexes 1. Even if I buy an auto injector and fake license (cram is only restricted after all), I can still buy ~950 doses of cram for the price of wired reflexes 1. Cram also has an availability of 2, so it's not hard to get.

Cram can be taken away... Wired Reflexes is a little harder to remove... and wired reflexes are generally not very addicting...if you plan on actually using those 900+ doese of Cram, expect to be saddled with a very heavy, always increasing addiction...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, these were complaints from 4ed players. Some had played earlier editions, others hadn't. The fact is that players with fewer IP got less 'screen time' that others, amongst other problems. The character with the most IPs gets the most attention and accomplishes the most in any given combat encounter. It can leave the other players feeling superfluous.


The Increased Reflexes spell seems to be pretty much required to make a mage viable (unless you want to take drugs or cram your head full of 'ware) - I get that. I just don't like it. I think it's bad game design and not much fun (and my players agree). I don't feel that IPs add much (anything?) to the game, so I think I'll try and see if they can be removed from the game without too much difficulty.

The dislike from 4th Edition pl;ayers stems from how multiple passes worked in previous editions... 4th makes it more even (dare I say Balanced)... and characters are indeed viable with 1 pass, though I would suggest a baseline of 2 for most runners...

If you are determined to go that route (no multiple IP's), however, have the technology/spells/etc provide bonuses to initiative only... the higher the initiative the better your survivability will be (and that is how it is handled in Cyberpunk 2020...

Keep the Faith

[Rystefn]

Cram can be taken away... Wired Reflexes is a little harder to remove... and wired reflexes are generally not very addicting...if you plan on actually using those 900+ doese of Cram, expect to be saddled with a very heavy, always increasing addiction...

Keep the Faith

If your drugs got taken away, you've already been arrested or something, most likely, and you've already screwed up the run beyond repair in most cases. I would say the major risk of using drugs is addiction. Mostly, it hinges on how much your GM is willing to screw you.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If your drugs got taken away, you've already been arrested or something, most likely, and you've already screwed up the run beyond repair in most cases. I would say the major risk of using drugs is addiction. Mostly, it hinges on how much your GM is willing to screw you.

and screw you he should if you are consuming that much in drugs... as for the getting caught, it happens some times, botched run or not... why add on another charge for Drugs as well...

Keep the Faith

[Rystefn]

... because Wired Reflexes are more legal than Cram? I'm pretty sure they are not, in fact. Caught with Cram is about the same as caught with Tylenol III. Wired Reflexes is like being caught with an unlicensed automatic weapon.

Oh, and consuming drugs during a run and no other time isn't really that much drugs for most people. It's not like the average team has a run every couple of days, is it? Your group may differ, but I think most aren't like that.

[Manunancy]

Removing the multiple IPs would in my opinion make most streetsams the ugly ducklings of the game : most basically sit on the wayside whenever things get social or technical. If you stiff their blaze of glory moments (namely comabts with their multiples IPs), they'll lose a lot of appeal.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

... because Wired Reflexes are more legal than Cram? I'm pretty sure they are not, in fact. Caught with Cram is about the same as caught with Tylenol III. Wired Reflexes is like being caught with an unlicensed automatic weapon.

Oh, and consuming drugs during a run and no other time isn't really that much drugs for most people. It's not like the average team has a run every couple of days, is it? Your group may differ, but I think most aren't like that.

I can actually get a license for the Ware, even plausibly so, in fact... when is the last time that you have seen a license for cocaine? I never have... Cram is not equivalent to Tylenol III, it is more equivalent to Cocaine or Speed...

You are right about run frequencey, but here is the thing... the GM can call for an addiction roll at any time for those errant drug users, and if you are RELYING upon Cram for your combat boosts, then you are becoming a habitual user, and eventually you will be addicted to it, With addiciton comes more frequent use, which leasds to a heavier addiction, etc. and we all know how that will end up in the end... habitual drug users have issues, and tend to take a quick slide to the lower rungs of the social ladder, eventually ending up dead (if they do not take steps to quit their self-destructive behavior), especially for those class of drugs that Cram is a part of... Especially in a Dystopian world like Shadowrun...

Keep the Faith

[Rystefn]

Actually, since Cram is R, not F, you can get a license for it... or, in this case, a prescription. So no, not like coke.

Oh, and I already pointed out addiction, didn't I? You score zero points for that. Especially considering how trivial it is to get the relevant stats high enough to just buy success on every addiction roll that comes up for Cram (threshold 2).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually, since Cram is R, not F, you can get a license for it... or, in this case, a prescription. So no, not like coke.

Oh, and I already pointed out addiction, didn't I? You score zero points for that. Especially considering how trivial it is to get the relevant stats high enough to just buy success on every addiction roll that comes up for Cram (threshold 2).

You an always suffer penalties to your rolls to resist addiction... it is restricted because people can become addicted... as such, you cannot always count on that resistance to succumbing to the addiction to operate...

And also, you might want to refer to the actual text of Addiction tests becasue you apparently missed the part about the GM having the right to do away with the addiction test completely and just decide to apply addiction whenever it is appropriate... So even if you are Tommy Troll with a Body 10 and Willpower 6 (for the Physical Addiction Test) or Willpower 6 and Logic 5 (for the Mental Addiction Test) you can still be saddled with an addiction if the GM believes that your character is abusing the substance such that it would be logical...

Keep the Faith

[Bugfoxmaster]

You an always suffer penalties to your rolls to resist addiction... it is restricted because people can become addicted... as such, you cannot always count on that resistance to succumbing to the addiction to operate...

And also, you might want to refer to the actual text of Addiction tests becasue you apparently missed the part about the GM having the right to do away with the addiction test completely and just decide to apply addiction whenever it is appropriate... So even if you are Tommy Troll with a Body 10 and Willpower 6 (for the Physical Addiction Test) or Willpower 6 and Logic 5 (for the Mental Addiction Test) you can still be saddled with an addiction if the GM believes that your character is abusing the substance such that it would be logical...

Keep the Faith

This is true, but bringing the unknown, unspecified GM character into that debate is sort of... off. Of course the GM could just go ahead and apply the Addiction quality, but then again, another GM might subvert the whole debate by saying he didn't care and that the player could do what he wanted. We can't rely on the vagaries of the GM's mental process for a decision - thus, we shouldn't look to 'GM's discretion' for advice.

[Rystefn]

You an always suffer penalties to your rolls to resist addiction... it is restricted because people can become addicted... as such, you cannot always count on that resistance to succumbing to the addiction to operate...

And also, you might want to refer to the actual text of Addiction tests becasue you apparently missed the part about the GM having the right to do away with the addiction test completely and just decide to apply addiction whenever it is appropriate... So even if you are Tommy Troll with a Body 10 and Willpower 6 (for the Physical Addiction Test) or Willpower 6 and Logic 5 (for the Mental Addiction Test) you can still be saddled with an addiction if the GM believes that your character is abusing the substance such that it would be logical...

Keep the Faith

The GM can do that, sure. The GM can also make rocks fall out of the sky and kill the whole party. Of course GM fiat overrides, but if the GM tends to use fiat, then player choices are mostly meaningless anyway. Or, if you prefer.. is the GM likely to fiat an addiction on a person who uses Cram once every 6-8 weeks? If you're using it 2-3 times a week, that would make sense, perhaps, but ruling addiction for occasional to rare usage and never taking more than one dose is a dick move, isn't it?