Ran a short SR campaign a few years ago, but have forgotten more about the rules than I remember. I may be running it again in the near future and am trying to pick up as much as I can again. One thing that confuses me is manifesting. What impact can a spirit have on the real world while manifesting? Can it use its powers on the real world? Likewise a mage in the astral manifesting. If a mage is manifesting can he cast spells at real world targets, or can he only be seen and communicate with them?

Spirits manifesting can act on the physical world. Use powers, shake hands, bash heads.

Magicians "manifesting" can be seen and heard by living beings, but not by cameras. They cannot act on the pysical world. They can only cast mana spells, and only at ASTRAL targets. They CANNOT manifest, then manabolt your face off.

Sorry,but thats partially Wrong
Spirits don't Manifest, they Materialise !
Manifesting is simply Making yoursellf visible for Mundanes. The Mage stays in the Astralspace,views from the Astralspace,etc. He's not on the material Plane.
He's just making himself visible to mundanes (he can't be recorded either) to communicate with them ,thats all

Hough!
Medicineman

Spirits can manifest (SR4A 193), but I take it they can't use their powers on material targets unless they materialise?

So, a mage can't target material targets while manifesting. This leads to another question - how are mages useful in runs without astral opposition? They are unlikely to have more than one IP if they aren't astral, which (as far as I can tell) severely limits their usefulness in combat. Sure, they can be be useful when it comes to astral scouting and the like, but once the bullets start flying they have to keep their heads down. Is the Increase Reflexes a total no-brainer for any combat mage?

1: they are just THE KINGS of the world then. No Astral opposition means no counterspelling, which pretty much means that all your spells will have always full effect. No one's brain is secure againt your mental manipulations and illusions, and your combat spells will have a HUGE effect. (Discounting the dudes with some innate magical protection, like Fomoris)

2: Well, there are some without it... but really four times the actions, and all you need is 5 karma and a spellbattery... i mean sustaining focus. For combat-casting really USEFUL.

If you are really chicken with being physical present... it is now allowed to summon spirits while astral (PLEASE show me it is not so). So you can always "send" down spirits to interact with the real world and stay in the astralworld. But your teammates will hate you for that. (And summoning around all the time can give a nasty backlash with drain)

Yeah,OK they can manifest,but they can do nil (just like the Mage) 'cept communicating. If they want to affect the Mundane World,they have to materialise

1. This leads to another question - how are mages useful in runs without astral opposition?
No it doesn't at all
mage can do so much besides casting Spells and Summoning Spirits.They can go and spy Astrally,
Counterspelling,etc

They are unlikely to have more than one IP if they aren't astral, which (as far as I can tell) severely limits their usefulness in combat
If you're playing a Combat Mage there are quite a few possibilities to get more than 1 IP and you should be using at least one
Assuming,that a Mage has only 1 IP is like assuming all Ki-Adepts are magical Streetsamurai Clones (Nearsighted)

HokaHey
Medicineman

Sure, no counterspelling sounds great. However, if you only have 1 IP, by the time you've cast your illusion either a) you've been shot 4 times and had your head cut off or b) your friends the street sam and combat adept have shot the targets 4 times and cut their heads off.





Gotcha. Just wanted to make sure I had that right.





Meh. I'm thinking of just eliminating extra IPs from the game completely. Cause more problems that they're worth.

Well, first off the mage gets to act in the first IP along with everyone that has 4IPs, so mage will get to do something before it is all over. And of course very few people actually have the full 4 IPs. Most enemies will have 1-2 and most runners will have 2-3. So yeah, SS is going to get in a few extra shots, but the fact is that in general, if there is no astral opposition, the mage is going to do in one turn what it takes the SS 2-3 combat turns to accomplish. (Twin casting F10 stunballs to take out basically everything in sight, mind controling a couple people to attack their allies, taking out at least 2 people per person mind controlled and so on.)


Yeah, gotta be careful with the terms. Manifesting is basically "Oh look, a ghosty!" and has no real affect on what the mage/spirit can do. Materialization is basically "I'm physical now, feel the pain."

Why? It is a major decision point for SSs and Adepts as they have to decide how much essence/PP they want to trade for IPs. It is a gap that helps define the difference between a combative type and the mage/hacker/joe average security guard.

Well, first off the mage gets to act in the first IP along with everyone that has 4IPs, so mage will get to do something before it is all over. And of course very few people actually have the full 4 IPs. Most enemies will have 1-2 and most runners will have 2-3. So yeah, SS is going to get in a few extra shots, but the fact is that in general, if there is no astral opposition, the mage is going to do in one turn what it takes the SS 2-3 combat turns to accomplish. (Twin casting F10 stunballs to take out basically everything in sight, mind controling a couple people to attack their allies, taking out at least 2 people per person mind controlled and so on.)


Yeah, gotta be careful with the terms. Manifesting is basically "Oh look, a ghosty!" and has no real affect on what the mage/spirit can do. Materialization is basically "I'm physical now, feel the pain."

Why? It is a major decision point for SSs and Adepts as they have to decide how much essence/PP they want to trade for IPs. It is a gap that helps define the difference between a combative type and the mage/hacker/joe average security guard.

Because, from a play perspective, it's a terrible mechanic. In fact it's one of the biggest complaints I've heard from people who used to play the game.

Even if the Mage can cast a spell in her first IP that takes out half the opposition, for the rest of the turn the player is left sitting doing nothing. In our last campaign we had a SS (4IP), an adept (3 IP), an assassin (2IP) a hacker (1 - 3IP) and a mage (1IP). After her IP the mage had to wait through 10 + IPs for the other characters to do stuff, + whatever the NPCs were doing.

I don't mind SSs and adepts being better in combat than the mage/hacker/security guard, but focusing too much time and attention on one type of player at the expense of the others is bad IMO. With increased attributes and other abilities I think the SS and adepts will be powerful enough without giving them 4 times as much to do as the other characters.

The reason that a lot of old players complain about multiple initiative passes is because in 1st-3rd edition the players with extra initiative passes took them before everyone else. In 4th edition, everyone has a turn before those with extra passes get to act again.

Also, If you are still complaining about mages not getting more than one initiative pass, you haven't been paying attention to what has been said. Increase reflexes can grant you up to 4 IPs, and even if you cannot afford a sustaining focus you can always use drugs. Psyche allows you to sustain a spell at only a -1 penalty to your action, which is a pretty minor trade off for 4 IPs, and either Jazz or Cram can be used to give you an extra initiative pass if you do not have increase reflexes or do not want to sustain a spell. Heck, when given the choice between drugs and wired reflexes 1, I choose drugs every time. They're far cheaper.

Really? You can never run out of Wired Reflexes, and they are always there... try using your drugs when you have none or can't get them...

Keep the Faith

I can buy 1100 doses of cram for the price of wired reflexes 1. Even if I buy an auto injector and fake license (cram is only restricted after all), I can still buy ~950 doses of cram for the price of wired reflexes 1. Cram also has an availability of 2, so it's not hard to get.

No, these were complaints from 4ed players. Some had played earlier editions, others hadn't. The fact is that players with fewer IP got less 'screen time' that others, amongst other problems. The character with the most IPs gets the most attention and accomplishes the most in any given combat encounter. It can leave the other players feeling superfluous.



The Increased Reflexes spell seems to be pretty much required to make a mage viable (unless you want to take drugs or cram your head full of 'ware) - I get that. I just don't like it. I think it's bad game design and not much fun (and my players agree). I don't feel that IPs add much (anything?) to the game, so I think I'll try and see if they can be removed from the game without too much difficulty.

Cram can be taken away... Wired Reflexes is a little harder to remove... and wired reflexes are generally not very addicting...if you plan on actually using those 900+ doese of Cram, expect to be saddled with a very heavy, always increasing addiction...

Keep the Faith

The dislike from 4th Edition pl;ayers stems from how multiple passes worked in previous editions... 4th makes it more even (dare I say Balanced)... and characters are indeed viable with 1 pass, though I would suggest a baseline of 2 for most runners...

If you are determined to go that route (no multiple IP's), however, have the technology/spells/etc provide bonuses to initiative only... the higher the initiative the better your survivability will be (and that is how it is handled in Cyberpunk 2020...

Keep the Faith

If your drugs got taken away, you've already been arrested or something, most likely, and you've already screwed up the run beyond repair in most cases. I would say the major risk of using drugs is addiction. Mostly, it hinges on how much your GM is willing to screw you.

and screw you he should if you are consuming that much in drugs... as for the getting caught, it happens some times, botched run or not... why add on another charge for Drugs as well...

Keep the Faith

... because Wired Reflexes are more legal than Cram? I'm pretty sure they are not, in fact. Caught with Cram is about the same as caught with Tylenol III. Wired Reflexes is like being caught with an unlicensed automatic weapon.

Oh, and consuming drugs during a run and no other time isn't really that much drugs for most people. It's not like the average team has a run every couple of days, is it? Your group may differ, but I think most aren't like that.

Removing the multiple IPs would in my opinion make most streetsams the ugly ducklings of the game : most basically sit on the wayside whenever things get social or technical. If you stiff their blaze of glory moments (namely comabts with their multiples IPs), they'll lose a lot of appeal.

I can actually get a license for the Ware, even plausibly so, in fact... when is the last time that you have seen a license for cocaine? I never have... Cram is not equivalent to Tylenol III, it is more equivalent to Cocaine or Speed...

You are right about run frequencey, but here is the thing... the GM can call for an addiction roll at any time for those errant drug users, and if you are RELYING upon Cram for your combat boosts, then you are becoming a habitual user, and eventually you will be addicted to it, With addiciton comes more frequent use, which leasds to a heavier addiction, etc. and we all know how that will end up in the end... habitual drug users have issues, and tend to take a quick slide to the lower rungs of the social ladder, eventually ending up dead (if they do not take steps to quit their self-destructive behavior), especially for those class of drugs that Cram is a part of... Especially in a Dystopian world like Shadowrun...

Keep the Faith

Actually, since Cram is R, not F, you can get a license for it... or, in this case, a prescription. So no, not like coke.

Oh, and I already pointed out addiction, didn't I? You score zero points for that. Especially considering how trivial it is to get the relevant stats high enough to just buy success on every addiction roll that comes up for Cram (threshold 2).

You an always suffer penalties to your rolls to resist addiction... it is restricted because people can become addicted... as such, you cannot always count on that resistance to succumbing to the addiction to operate...

And also, you might want to refer to the actual text of Addiction tests becasue you apparently missed the part about the GM having the right to do away with the addiction test completely and just decide to apply addiction whenever it is appropriate... So even if you are Tommy Troll with a Body 10 and Willpower 6 (for the Physical Addiction Test) or Willpower 6 and Logic 5 (for the Mental Addiction Test) you can still be saddled with an addiction if the GM believes that your character is abusing the substance such that it would be logical...

Keep the Faith

This is true, but bringing the unknown, unspecified GM character into that debate is sort of... off. Of course the GM could just go ahead and apply the Addiction quality, but then again, another GM might subvert the whole debate by saying he didn't care and that the player could do what he wanted. We can't rely on the vagaries of the GM's mental process for a decision - thus, we shouldn't look to 'GM's discretion' for advice.

The GM can do that, sure. The GM can also make rocks fall out of the sky and kill the whole party. Of course GM fiat overrides, but if the GM tends to use fiat, then player choices are mostly meaningless anyway. Or, if you prefer.. is the GM likely to fiat an addiction on a person who uses Cram once every 6-8 weeks? If you're using it 2-3 times a week, that would make sense, perhaps, but ruling addiction for occasional to rare usage and never taking more than one dose is a dick move, isn't it?

Depends on how you rule on Cram. It's possible to get hooked quite fast, and what are the odds of more than one combat in two months? More importantly, wired reflexes are internal. Cram isn't. So either you're getting crammed up before every run or you're doing drugs in the middle of a firefight, and neither one sounds like a good option. And coming off of cram is a really bad idea if the run takes longer than expected.

Then there's the side effects. Yes, by the rules Cram is pretty nice stuff. But with the flavor? You'll be jittery, jumpy, and twitchy--not good news for a runner. Especially if you need to be stealthy... or not shoot the wrong person in q split-second reaction.

And, frankly, Cram just won't take you that far. Why stop at one IP when you can get wired up for more? As you say, 2 IP is a bare minimum for most successful runners. 3 IP will take you much farther, and you can't get that with chemical boosts.

Sure you can... K-10 will bring you up to 4IP's... well after that you get 16 stun (unresistable) so if you were wounded in the fight you will pretty much be dead... but hey, look on the bright side: it only costs 900 Nuyen is insanely illigal and lets you berserk (and if you miss an edge-roll berserk you FOREVER).

Thing is: i think i stay with Move-By-Wire I for non-combat characters. Just so many advantages over Reflex Booster. Mages however: Just a sustaining focus and the spell. Not so expensive.

Just finished up my last campaign, in the beginning, we one person playing a mage with increase reflexes, but who refused to use a sustaining foci because "he would never rely on something external like that". So as a result, that mage NEVER had more than one IP, and spent alot of time bored in combat.

When we started up our new game, all the players made a gentleman's agreement to start play with no more than 2 IP. The GM supported this and he agreed that he won't be throwing gangers with 4IP at us, until we all work our way up.

Perhaps you can talk to your group and see if they like that idea?

They cannot cast spells at non-astral targets? Is Mystic Adept astral target?

So is mundane character completely safe from manifesting magician?

Mystic Adept is not a astral target. (Unless he has astral perception on.)

An Astral target is: any dual critters/npc's, spirits and watchers, astral projecting magicians, astral perceiving magicians and adepts, wards and (people will still argue that and yes in 4th edition it doesn't seem to be the case anymore) spells and active foci.

So as long as you don't say: "Hey let me just do a quick lookie into the astral" you are safe. But if you say: let me use my astral sight, there might be something hovering above you, just waiting for you to become active so he can powerbolt you into a coma.

This of course is the sensible, communicating adult way of doing things


As for Cram vs. Wired:

Cram +
* No 2 Essence cost to start with
* Doesn't show up on cyberware scanners and such
* You can leave it at home if the run calls for a completely innocent-looking body
* 10 and 2R means you don't run out, and if you do, you can get more in in an hour or so.

Cram -
* Not everyone likes using drugs
* Can be taken away
* Supply might run out
* Duration might run out on very long runs
* Max +1 IP

Wired +
* Always there for you
* Goes up to +3IPs

Wired -
* More expensive
* Essence expensive
* More illegal
* Easily detected


All in all, I'd want to save up for synaptic boosters every time. The much-harder-to-detect bioware and only 0.5 Essence per rating makes it a much better choice in the long term. Even mages should seriously consider it. Doubling/tripling your actions at the cost of a point of magic can be worth it.

I tend to go for the bioware as well, myself, but drugs are a viable option if it fits the character concept.

Ok, so I have a question about auras and the astral.

Can a mage on the astral see the aura of people who are invisible? Would they also be able to see the auras of the invisibility spell itself to counterspell it?

Yes, and yes. Read the spell description, and it explicitly tells you it does not prevent astral perception.

Oh perfectly. That is the thing with invisibility: Anyone with astral sight just sees you perfectly clear (except you can hide your aura with metamagic or in dense life, astral stealth is possible).

For the dispelling: WELL... i would allow it. But i have played 2nd and 3rd edition where that was perfectly ok and a standard procedure, since a spell was a astral presence. In the 4th Edition it never gets mentioned, so it maybe not allowed since the spell is somehow physical and as such not on the astral. That would be (in my opinion) totally retarded.

I don't see the cause/effect here. Why does using a focus have anything to do with how many IPs he gets? The focus doesn't affect the number of IPs you get, having more IPs doesn't increase the concentration penalty. Not using a focus is no direct reason for the increase reflexes spell to only give you 1 bonus IP as opposed to 2 or 3 since a sustaining focus doesn't affect the number of IPs you can get in any form what-so-ever.

I think he meant: The dude will NEVER use a focus, no matter what kind. And he is too lazy to sustain the spell himself, so he is always at 1 IP. It is just the difference between 1 IP/ no spell, or sustained X IP's. He chose the former.

...and, as such, it's his own fault he's bored.

Oh, well if he has the spell but is too lazy to use it then that is an entirely different problem and really doesn't have much to do with the question of improving IP. Like Rystefn said, mostly his own fault he was bored if he had the means to gain IPs and was just too lazy to use it.

Kind of like playing a sammy with a gun and then complaining you never get to do anything in fights because you refuse to use your gun.

You only get into fights every 6-8 weeks in your game... wow... We sometimes have multiple fights in a session (and sometimes no fights in a session)... but statistically, we would probably be in that 2-3 fights/week or so If I took the time to lok at it... at which point, even I would take voluntary penalties to the roll for addiction, as I am obviously using the drug as a crutch... which was my point... the more you ise it, the worse it is going to be and YOU WILL become addicted eventually...

Hell, I have even just taken the Addictions from time to time (after play starts) because of this very thing...

Keep the Faith

See Medicineman's reply to the post you quoted... Spirits do not manifest on the physical to cause havok, they Materialize... this is a very big difference...

Assuming that a mage found some way to actually Materialize from the Astral (Endowment?) then they would be just as deadly as a normal mage on the Physical Plane...

Keep the Faith

Well the Force of the Focus actually DOES come into Play... You can have no more applied hits than the Spells FOrce and the Focus must be equal (or more powerful) to the Force of teh Cast spell to sustain... No Sustaining a Force 4 Spell on a Focus of Force 3... barring using edge to bypass the cap of the Force Limits...

Keep the Faith

Yeah, about every 6-8 weeks. See, I run with a team of pros, and being pros, we like to avoid being shot at, so we try to engineer runs to make this as unlikely as possible. It fails about as often as it succeeds (the game would be boring if things always went according to plan, right?), and sometimes there's just not a viable no-shooting plan we can come up with. More to the point, though... we don't mug little old ladies for a living. That's not a long-term business model that works. So we aren't exactly running out every couple of days for a couple hundred nuyen. Even when we first started, we wouldn't get out of bed for less than a few grand each. Not worth it. Better off spending your bp buying a permanent lifestyle and retiring out of the box before shot #1 is fired. Of course, if you're playing a poverty-stricken, street-level game, that would make more sense... but then it wouldn't make sense to be able to afford expensive mil-spec cyberware. Getting hooked on drugs is much more fitting to that brand of game, I think.

Right, true, but this was a question of using a sustaining focus at all. If you aren't using a sustaining focus at all, it really doesn't matter, as not having a sustaining focus doesn't prevent you from personally sustaining high force spells or anything.

He said that the character didn't have a sustaining focus and thus didn't use his increased reflexes spell. I did misread the post a bit though and thought he meant that the character was going through with only 1 extra IP, instead of not using the spell at all so as to only have 1 total IP. Basically the character had the means to trade a -2 penalty in exchange for +3 IP and decided not to do it for unknown reasons, and then complained that he didn't have any fun in combat because he didn't have enough IPs.

As I said before, this is basically like giving your character a gun, then complaining that you don't get to do anything in combat because you refuse to use your gun (And don't, you know, have the pacifism trait).

We too play a Ice Cold Professional Style game... we to try to minimize the fallout of a run, and your right, it fails about half the time (maybe a little more)... but we also tend to have environmental situations that have to be ocassionally dealt with... We do not "get out of bed" for less than several thousands each either (generally around the 5,000 Nuyen/Operative Minimum)... we do not "Mug Old Ladies" or Knock over Stuffer Shacks or any of that silly nonsense... Even when we first started... we are highly trained and highly professional shadow assets, with half of the characters well over 200 points (The Mage is at about 250, I, The Hacker, am at 250, and the Jack of all trades is close to 300 or so), and the other half approaching 200 points (2 Street Sams and a Technomancer)... unfortunately, we have been pursuing the elusive "Big Score" for over a year in game and we have made a LOT of enemies... and they do tend to show up at the most inconvenient of times, let me tell you...

Yes, in a street level game (played one in 3rd for a while) no-one had the expensive mil-spec anything, and the character I played was a druggie ganger, took a while to kick the habit, but I finally did, and my awakening (Physad) compensated for the drugs, once I was clean... becasue as you say, in that style of game it made a lot of sense

Anyways... Keep the Faith

Good Point...

Keep the Faith

So... you send a lot of time shooting at the environment? Although I must say, I find a lot of humor in the idea of a drugged-out runner freaking out and taking shots at the world around him every couple of days, that character shouldn't expect a long and glorious career in shadowrunning. He should expect a sudden and early demise.

Seriously, though... Your GM has people show up and try to kill you every couple of days? That's pretty extreme. Have you tried... you know, laying low?

By environmental, I refer to such things as gang/yakuza/vory/triad interaction that is required whether you are hiding out or researching information/following leads to track down people/places/things/etc....

We continuously pursue the "Big Score" that we are working on, sometimes we can actually go a week or two without shots being fired, and then sometimes we have to deal with a running fight that takes us through some facility and through major parts of a section of a town... we do indeed lay low, and we even frequently pursue leads outside of our base of operations (Hong Kong)... we have had an assassination team from Mitsuhama show up once, we have had a street gang attempt to take out a character because he was "on the wrong side of town", reputation notwithstanding (it was a face thing don't you know) and there are times we do not fire a shot and still have combat (unarmed subduals, etc)... point being, the action happens when the action happens... if you are popping that drug whenever it happens, you are eventually going to acquire that addiction... and then you will start that spiral, unless you can get out from under it...

So, in answer to your question... no they do not try to kill us every couple of days... but we are active enough that, well, action happens... whether it is a chase scene, a shootout, silently taking a few guards, avoiding the Corporate hit team sent after you, avoiding the HRT teams, whatever... we use runs (we can essentially set up our own, as we have the reputation to do so) to finance the pursuit of the "Big Score"... and when you need access to a lot highly secured areas/sensitive information, and have opposing teams going after the same information (putting us on a form of time constraint; though when raiding an Ultra-high Security Zero Zone, where one little misstep can get you very, very dead, you really want to make sure that you have all that you really need to complete the actual mission, so time constraints are a little more flexible), you tend to have a lot of action... it has been an exciting 14 months (or so)...

And hell, some of our sessions cover only a single night or two... while others span 3-4 weeks...

Keep the Faith

The street scum, startup desperate runners, and other shadow misfits might turn to drugs. They also have a bad habit of ending up dead quickly.

The professionals are very much into minimizing their chances of dying and maximizing their profits, probably in that order. Drugs are cheap. Developing a habit is no longer cheap, and while addiction is bad news, screwing up your drugs for a run is worse news. When you come off a Cram high mid-run, or end up in a surprise firefight without your chemical crutches handy, you're likely to end up dead. The savvy runner expects that a run will run hours over schedule at least once, and someone with a grudge and a gun will pop up sometime.

Wiring yourself up is expensive, but dying because you're a cheap bastard means you can't enjoy the nuyen you saved. Good runners get the wires. They're a better long-term investment. Desperate gangers? They do whatever they can not to die today. Tomorrow can be dealt with if they're not dead tonight.

Doublethanks for the explanation!

I had missed this info and it seemed to me that mage can attack creatures through direct spells while manifesting. I created a bit of terror (because they couldn't do anything about it) in my group (who has no magic) when manifesting security mage came and gave a bit of pain to them.

So is there anything that security mage can do (while manifesting) if facility is being attacked? Besides scouting and informing.