Sneaking vs. Magic, The plight of a ninja Shadowrunner Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Thats not the issue here - it's what happens if you swap out "guards" with "spirits" and "overseer" with "watcher".

Which should change... absolutely nothing...

Keep the Faith

[CanadianWolverin...]

It does change something, it changes only who can say "Hey, that place is being guarded" from what they see.

What it won't change is infiltration because follow with me here, since we all learned from the nice people in this thread who quoted parts from books, that those objects in the physical plane can still block line of sight in the astral plane, so where would one place guards in the physical, wouldn't it follow that would be approximately where one would place guards in the astral as well? Before someone goes pointing out the flying/floating thing for astral, allow me to point out where in the physical plane people would be most likely to place a camera.

In conclusion, the infiltration practiced and used against physical watchers who sound alarms would be pretty damn close to the same thing as what would be used against astral watchers who sound alarms because line of sight is a constant (well not quite thanks to the window thing but hopefully you get the idea).

Here is the part I think we are getting caught up on, its Camouflage (Disguise?) that doesn't work the same on the physical as it does in the astral. So, IMHO, just remove any benefit the Infiltrator gets from his gear in the physical (or better yet, just add a bonus to the astral perceiving person's Perception pool to offset it), unless you deem it is thick enough that his aura doesn't glow through it that is. What is the equivalent of Disguise and Camouflage in the astral, Mask IIRC?

And other than that? Well, if the Infiltrator can't see a camera, hiding camouflaged ninja, or astral spirit, he can't report it to his less stealthy pals, correct?

It is totally possible with what we have for two sneaky things to sneak past each other, fail their perception rolls, and both be none the wiser about an obstacle to other less sneaky folks. Sounds pretty kosher - and even dare I say it fun - to me.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It does change something, it changes only who can say "Hey, that place is being guarded" from what they see.

What it won't change is infiltration because follow with me here, since we all learned from the nice people in this thread who quoted parts from books, that those objects in the physical plane can still block line of sight in the astral plane, so where would one place guards in the physical, wouldn't it follow that would be approximately where one would place guards in the astral as well? Before someone goes pointing out the flying/floating thing for astral, allow me to point out where in the physical plane people would be most likely to place a camera.

In conclusion, the infiltration practiced and used against physical watchers who sound alarms would be pretty damn close to the same thing as what would be used against astral watchers who sound alarms because line of sight is a constant (well not quite thanks to the window thing but hopefully you get the idea).

Here is the part I think we are getting caught up on, its Camouflage (Disguise?) that doesn't work the same on the physical as it does in the astral. So, IMHO, just remove any benefit the Infiltrator gets from his gear in the physical (or better yet, just add a bonus to the astral perceiving person's Perception pool to offset it), unless you deem it is thick enough that his aura doesn't glow through it that is. What is the equivalent of Disguise and Camouflage in the astral, Mask IIRC?

And other than that? Well, if the Infiltrator can't see a camera, hiding camouflaged ninja, or astral spirit, he can't report it to his less stealthy pals, correct?

It is totally possible with what we have for two sneaky things to sneak past each other, fail their perception rolls, and both be none the wiser about an obstacle to other less sneaky folks. Sounds pretty kosher - and even dare I say it fun - to me.

With which I Agree...

Keep the Faith

[Ascalaphus]

Currently, camouflage modifies the chance to spot someone, not the difficulty of hiding tests. So you don't need to give spirits a bonus; they simply don't get a penalty earthbound observers get.


I think Infiltration specialties by observer type are a bad system. Because it'd require different rolls against different observers. How I think it's best handled is this:

* Normal Infiltration just makes a test. Any observers who get more hits can see the ninja.
* Some methods of observation might get a bonus for some reason. (For example, because they can't be perceived, and are therefore harder to properly hide from. This is not a penalty on the Infiltration check, because any normal observers aren't harder to hide from, merely because there are special observers.) The bonus would usually be +2
* A ninja can take a penalty on his Infiltration to specifically hide from a certain type of observation, that would normally get a bonus to spot them. That bonus is negated. ONLY in this case does a specialty against specific observer types have an effect; it adds dice, reducing the penalty for specific observers.

Example:

Nick Ninja is moving through an industrial building. He's infiltrating; makes a test, and gets some hits. Charlie Camera, George Guard and Sonny Spirit are trying to see him.

Nick makes a Perception check and spots Charlie. George isn't hidden. They don't receive bonuses against Nick, because he's aware of them.

Sonny gets a +2 to his dice pool, because Nick can't see spirits.



Example2:

Nick knows rumors that there's a spirit there. He's got a Spirits specialty on Infiltration. He hasn't seen Charlie this time.

He thinks there may be cameras, and he wants to hide from both spirits and cameras that he can't see. This makes his job a lot harder; -2 for the spirits, -2 for the cameras. His Spirits specialty kicks in, reducing the penalty to -2 (cameras).

Suppose he fails to spot George; now George gets a +2 to see him, and Charlie and Sonny don't.



This assumes that anything which isn't hidden is seen; that some guards are hidden, some cameras are hidden, and others are obvious, to make sure people behave. (Big brother is watching you.)

Successful sneaking now requires good Perception; but that makes a lot of sense to me.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

So, in short, what you are saying is: people just does infiltration tests like they always did and spirits and projecting wizards receive bonus or penalties according to overall cover and astral background (where by background I mean lack or full presence of life-forms, ambiental "noise", etc...)?

[CanadianWolverin...]

So, in short, what you are saying is: people just does infiltration tests like they always did and spirits and projecting wizards receive bonus or penalties according to overall cover and astral background (where by background I mean lack or full presence of life-forms, ambiental "noise", etc...)?

Er, no, not what I was saying anyways. I am saying that if the infiltrator is aware of a possible perceiving sentry (thus their position and type of data gathering), the enviroment only benefits them more so, not less. The only possible bonus to a sentry is the infiltrator not being aware of their existence.

So, I figure, the higher a Infiltrator's skill, the more knowledge they possess about possible sentries to their movement and position, thus all the moves they make are assumed between the character moving from where they start and declare what the dice they are rolling are for and their proposed goal. The more complicated this stuff gets in its calculations for if that infiltration to be successful, the more I see this going from abstracted character knowledge to specific player knowledge, which I can only see as being more hassle for both player and GM aka not fun. If the GM makes the additional stuff clear before hand and the player agrees, then I don't see a problem but just assuming the player who rolls a bunch of dice has the same amount of specific pro-elite knowledge of their character to make the call on when they tip toe, panther crawl, stay still, hustle between cover, go over or under the fence, and so on seems like it could be a big headache in not just player decision but GM designing and improvising the scenario.

I hope this makes some sense and it after all only my humble opinion - plus, I could be totally off base in some way, I only own the 1 book SR4A. *shrug*

It kinda reminds me of one of my favorite movies, The Hunted. There are scenes in that movie, especially early on, that if you don't know what you are looking for you can look right past the film's antagonist. I also get a kick out of watching a tv show called Mantracker. If there is some other fun Perception vs Infiltration entertainment out there, I would be glad to hear about it.

[Smokeskin]

Thats not the issue here - it's what happens if you swap out "guards" with "spirits" and "overseer" with "watcher".

That is exactly my point. RAW doesn't state all modifiers you can, will and should apply, very far from it.

If you're playing the game in a way that lets a mundane sneak past a regular guard as easily as a patrolling spirit - who is much faster, can fly, pass through walls, and is invisible to the infiltrator - then you're simply doing it wrong.

[Ascalaphus]

If you're playing the game in a way that lets a mundane sneak past a regular guard as easily as a patrolling spirit - who is much faster, can fly, pass through walls, and is invisible to the infiltrator - then you're simply doing it wrong.

I think that completely mundane guards are an extinct species. A typical guard probably carries some of the following:

* Ultrawideband Radar (see through 20 Structure rating of walls)
* Ultrasound
* Thermographic
* Radio signal scanner
* Increased audio sensitivity
* Laser microphone ("is there any minute noise over there?")

Also, all these can be loaded onto a scanner the size of a tricorder, which takes a lot of effort to spot (-2 to concealability, comparable to a light pistol), on a well-hidden camera, or a minidrone. Some fit into a microdrone (-6 concealability). They can further get some ruthenium coating, be made from ceramics to fool a ninja's MAD scanner and so forth.

Since drones and scanners aren't all that expensive, probably cheaper than well-trained guards, they should be the standard by which Infiltration difficulties are measured. And it would be silly to always apply a difficulty to Infiltration.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Actually, the drones you suggest are expensive - around 10 grand for the crawlers, 20 grand for the hunter-killers. I know - I build some of those... and they don't even have upgraded Response.

Same goes for the sensors.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Specially when you add the ruthenium coating and the ceramic parts...

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Well, aside from the fact that there is no ceramic mod for drones - it's not only completely useless because MADs are not used against them, but also not even included in the above figures.

[Ascalaphus]

I'm not saying they're free, but 10K?

* All microdrones cost 1000-1500
* Chameleon coating costs Body x 1000 (all microdrones have Body 0...)
* Improved Sensor Array costs 1000 and gives room for [3] sensors (strangely, they're even able to function with just one out of the box..)
* Some sensor options: Camera [1] & 100, Microphone [1] & 50, Motion Sensor [1] & 50, Ultrawideband Radar rating 4 [2] & 2000, Radio Signal Scanner rating 6 [1] & 150

All in all, not so very expensive. Given that they'd be -10 to spot (-6 to begin with, chameleon coating for another -4), can fit just about anywhere, crawl around on the ceiling as well..

[Ascalaphus]

Well, aside from the fact that there is no ceramic mod for drones - it's not only completely useless because MADs are not used against them, but also not even included in the above figures.

Yeah, I noticed.. I think it's an oversight in Arsenal. It's a relevant feature for small drones that you could smuggle in your pockets.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

It's a relevant feature for small drones that you could smuggle in your pockets.

Not really - they are made mostly from plastics anyway.

What you have to worry about are cyber scanners and non-linear junction detectors.

[Orcus Blackweath...]

The same points seem to be made repeatedly here. I believe that the most important thing here is that the GM applied a -8 to sneak against a spirit. This means that it is impossible for a normal human being to sneak (normal skill 3 stat 3 dice pool of 6) from a spirit EVER. Regardless of who the observer might be, the dice pool penalty for sneaking should only be those things in control of the sneaker. For example Wound penalties, how quickly the infiltrator is moving, is he using cover, and etc. If the observer is hidden so that the sneaker is not aware, that would provide a bonus to perception. If the observer has some sort of special sight, again perception bonus. Lighting? Perception bonus. Number of sentries? Perception bonus. If you feel that the spirit has such an advantage that it should get +8 to it's pool, that is fine, as it is possible for the dice to roll poorly, but to take away 8 dice makes it impossible to even try in most cases.

As an additional point, if you apply bonus to the perceiver rather than negative to the infiltrator, you do not have to tell the player what he is up against.

[Machiavelli]

4 pages in such a short time with so many competent answers. Very Nice. I admit that i have only read the first and the last page of this topic, so maybe somebody already did quote my following thoughts:

Pros:
- infiltration skill works pretty fine even on the astral

Cons:
- while objects are dark shades and living beings are glooming colorful and vibrant, this would definitely qualify for the perception test threshold of 1
- because his doesn´t know on which side of the wall he has to hide, give him another -2 on his dice-pool
- the spirit is actively looking (-3 on his dicepool)
- spirits can fly which grants great overview (+3 for the spirit)

I think this could be a good solution for the problem.

[Orcus Blackweath...]

4 pages in such a short time with so many competent answers. Very Nice. I admit that i have only read the first and the last page of this topic, so maybe somebody already did quote my following thoughts:

Pros:
- infiltration skill works pretty fine even on the astral

Cons:
- while objects are dark shades and living beings are glooming colorful and vibrant, this would definitely qualify for the perception test threshold of 1
- because his doesn´t know on which side of the wall he has to hide, give him another -2 on his dice-pool
- the spirit is actively looking (-3 on his dicepool)
- spirits can fly which grants great overview (+3 for the spirit)

I think this could be a good solution for the problem.

Doesn't quite work Machiavelli. The spirit looking does not in anyway affect whether he has chosen a good hiding spot. All of the things you mention are bonuses to the spirit to make a perception test, not something that determines how stealthy the infiltrator is. If the infiltrator is being super sneaky, he would get all of his dice to roll. If there are 5 different perceivers, some of whom werevisible and some were not, some spirits, some not, then the infiltrator would need to make 5 different die rolls to determine which enemies saw him and which did not. Instead you grant him bonuses or negatives to those aspects of the test that directly affect him. Ie walking on bubble rap, carrying a screeching monkey, or bleeding arterial spray. Then apply bonuses to anyone who has some reason to be more able to see him. One Spirit is on the other side of the room (+1 bonus because he does not know it is there), One spirit which happens to be directly above him (+1 because he does not know it is there, +2 for superior position, +1 because of excellent visibility, + 1 for no cover in the astral). The human guard in Chameleon suit, the human mage invisible, and the hidden camera in the ceiling would be granted similar bonuses as applicable.

In short, the sneakiest people would be seen by someone in the right position, but missed by those in the wrong position. The infiltration skill is not modified by either of them.

[Semerkhet]

DISREGARDING ALL THAT, if you STILL don't buy any of the above arguments, consider this.... if astral surveillance was SO much of a trump card in regards to physical stealth, a spell would have HAD to have been created to negate this. Just think... desert wars, actual wars, militaries, corpsec... if a single spirit is able to point out an unlimited number of snipers or guerillas on the battlefield, a corp or government would have no choice but to come up with a spell to negate this. So if you are so dead set on the fact that auras stick out like a sore thumb to any sort of astral perception, AT LEAST make a spell available that is the equivalent to astral stealth for a mundane metahuman. Because, if you're that inclined towards realism, it's quite unrealistic to assume that no countermeasures have ever been conceived against it.

I'd like to address this particular point. Is there any reason why an Astral Invisibility spell would be impossible to design within the parameters of the rules in Street Magic? Certainly it is possible in the SR world to conceal objects and living creatures from astral observers, i.e. the spirit Concealment power. Why couldn't a spell be designed to provide Astral Invisibility in an analogous manner to the existing (Improved)Invisibilty spells?

They way I figure it you have an Illusion spell with the following traits:
Type: Mana +0
Range: LoS +0
Duration: Sustained +0
Illusion Hides or Conceals: +2

So you have a Mana-based Illusion with a Drain Code of (F/2)+2.

The only other consideration that comes to mind is one of the Limitations of Magic noted in the sidebar on p. 160 of Street Magic:

Sorcery Cannot Bridge the Gap between the Astral and Physical Planes
Spells only have an effect in the plane onwhich they are cast. Spells cast on the astral have no effect on the physical, and vice versa. Likewise, spells cast in the astral or physical have no effect on the metaplanes, and vice versa.

This merely requires the caster to be astrally perceiving or projecting when he/she casts the spell on the subject. An extra step, to be sure, but a minor one.

Anything about this spell violate RAW?

[Ghremdal]

Well you have the concealment power of spirits to protect you.

But I agree that infiltration should work normally against astral perception as well for a mundane character. Both from the mechanical and in game standpoint. Think of the consequences if it did not:

Mechanically:
- no mundane would pick the infiltration skill (with the exception of riggers). Any mundane trying to enter a guarded compound would not consider the stealthy approach, and would put those points into heavy weapons / skills to use them.
- as a result more players would choose awakened characters

In game:
- development of stealth and anti stealth technology would probably not evolve as much
- pretty much any wage mage would be a spirit binder
- security in most complexes would be astral. Even a apartment building could afford a bound watcher spirit, especially if they ditched other security measures

[Mikado]

I'd like to address this particular point. Is there any reason why an Astral Invisibility spell would be impossible to design within the parameters of the rules in Street Magic? Certainly it is possible in the SR world to conceal objects and living creatures from astral observers, i.e. the spirit Concealment power. Why couldn't a spell be designed to provide Astral Invisibility in an analogous manner to the existing (Improved)Invisibilty spells?

They way I figure it you have an Illusion spell with the following traits:
Type: Mana +0
Range: LoS +0
Duration: Sustained +0
Illusion Hides or Conceals: +2

So you have a Mana-based Illusion with a Drain Code of (F/2)+2.

The only other consideration that comes to mind is one of the Limitations of Magic noted in the sidebar on p. 160 of Street Magic:


This merely requires the caster to be astrally perceiving or projecting when he/she casts the spell on the subject. An extra step, to be sure, but a minor one.

Anything about this spell violate RAW?

Well... The regular Invisibility spell makes people ignore the target of the spell and the spell is already a mana spell so it can be cast on the Astral. It would not be a far jump to say that spell works as normal because the character is never really invisible, he is telling everyone who can perceive him to "IGNORE ME!" and they would.
Now, I'm not saying that it is truly legal by the rules but as written it should work.

[Sponge]

I'd like to address this particular point. Is there any reason why an Astral Invisibility spell would be impossible to design within the parameters of the rules in Street Magic? Certainly it is possible in the SR world to conceal objects and living creatures from astral observers, i.e. the spirit Concealment power. Why couldn't a spell be designed to provide Astral Invisibility in an analogous manner to the existing (Improved)Invisibilty spells?

Except the spell itself is a separate visible entity on the astral, so instead of a plainly visible metahuman aura, you have a plainly visible spell aura, which is probably even more suspicious (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Semerkhet]

Except the spell itself is a separate visible entity on the astral, so instead of a plainly visible metahuman aura, you have a plainly visible spell aura, which is probably even more suspicious (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

However, if you follow Mikado's assertion that the mana-based invisibility causes people to just ignore the target of the spell, would they notice the spell signature? If not, then the only choice for any infiltration of a high security area is to have a spirit using Concealment on the infiltrators. I dislike having one and only one solution to a given problem. Infiltration skill checks alone versus patrolling spirits will work some of the time, but not enough for professionals to rely upon.

I dispute the relevance of any arguments about how rare magicians or magical security is in the 6th world. Unless you're running a street-level game, the shadowrunners are, almost by definition, hitting targets that are valuable enough to warrant magical security. It doesn't matter if 80%(or whatever) of corporate facilities don't have spirits patrolling because 80% of the ones that runners are trying to hit *do* have magical security.

[Muspellsheimr]

Though mana-based illusions can be created
on the astral plane, their magical auras give them away as illusions to
anyone who makes a successful Assensing Test (see Astral Perception,
p. 191). Illusions cannot fool assensing to disguise or create auras.

Her aura is still
visible to astral perception.

[Mikado]

Yea... Whats to stop someone from making a "Control Thoughts" equivalent to Invisibility? A mage with improved masking and a mind control "Ignore Me" spell could hide (themselves or another) from astral detection.

[The Jake]

Actually, the drones you suggest are expensive - around 10 grand for the crawlers, 20 grand for the hunter-killers. I know - I build some of those... and they don't even have upgraded Response.

Same goes for the sensors.

Compare that against the salary of multiple guards, factoring in sick leave, annual leave, training, 401k/Super/company benefits, etc, against the number of drones, factoring down time for spares/replacements, estimated maintenance cost, it could still be cheaper.

- J.