Vampires Radiation and Extreme Temperatures, Is Radiation or Extreme Temperature Lethal to Vampires Options

[Delarn]

Information complement : http://www.dermnet.org.nz/reactions/photosensitivity.html

Ultraviolet Radiation

Sunlight contains both ordinary visible light and shorter invisible light rays called ultraviolet radiation (UVR). UVR can produce tanning but also causes burning and skin cancer.

UVR is divided into UVB (short wavelength rays that cause sunburn and tan) and UVA (longer wavelength tanning rays). Patients can be sensitive to one kind of sunlight (i.e. only to UVB, UVA or visible light) or to a wider range of radiation. The most common photosensitivity is to UVA.

If it's not UV then it's for an other F****** reason. And that reason may be MANA vehiculed in sunlight (Wich is theorically discussed in this thread : http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=29284 )

F******ly Awakened or not VVHMH is still a retrovirus that must add the magus gene to the infected(And thus awakening the victim). It can imbue a GENETICALLY failure to protect the victim from UV like those GENETICAL diseases : Photosensitivity is caused by a pre-existing genetic disorder, e.g.:xeroderma pigmentosum, Bloom syndrome, Rothmund Thomson syndrome.

[LurkerOutThere]

Hokay, by the letter of the rules a vampire is affected by environmental hazards same as everyone else. They do not recover from the ongoing affects until they meet the condition to do so just as every one else. Similarly vampires only suffer their penalties and damages from Sunlight. The reason for that is depressingly vague however that's the way the rules stand as written.

[Mordinvan]

The cells aren't just dying. They are frozen. They can't heal until they melt. Once they melt they heal as normal. Or at least that's how I rule it. Regen doesn't melt stuff.

No but the cells would notice that their neighbor is 'dead' and then divide to replace them, or however it is regen works.

[Mordinvan]

No. We have plenty of information. & Delarn is, intentionally or not (aka troll or moron), he is spewing obvious bullshit.

Vampires have an allergy to sunlight. Ultraviolet light does not affect them in itself. Visible light does not affect them in itself. Nor does Infrared. It is the full combination of wavelengths that compose sunlight that is harmful to vampires.

If I recall correctly AH actually already talked about this, and said there was some supernatural quality about 'sunlight' which caused vamps to have the problem. If I'm misremembering this, then please forgive me, but I seem to remember him stating UV lamps were effectively useless for defense against vampires and the like, as would light from any star other then Sol.

[Muspellsheimr]

They do not recover from the ongoing affects until they meet the condition to do so just as every one else.

Precisely. And due to poor choice of wording, this means a number of incomparable situations are RAW.

As I previously stated, the wording implies that natural healing does not function until you have met the prerequisite "respite". The literal meaning can vary anywhere between and including not having any effect whatsoever, as there are no rules for "recovering" damage (note - it does not say you are unable to recover from the damage - you are unable to recover the damage), and it does not include "healing" in the restriction.


It is yet another poorly written section of the rules in need of clarification (minimum). Also, please explain to me how the following makes sense (particularly taking into account magic): Because the body is unable to repair itself, nothing can repair it.

While having such a restriction apply to natural healing is fine, & makes sense, having it apply to everything is absurd (from both gameplay and realistic viewpoints).



Edit: To provide support, the rules for Regeneration specifically state forms of damage that cannot be healed by it - of which damage caused by failed Survival checks is not one of. This implies (rather strongly) that Regeneration will, in fact, repair such damage.

[BRodda]

No but the cells would notice that their neighbor is 'dead' and then divide to replace them, or however it is regen works.

The rules don't support that. If you want to be immune to cold and heat there are mutagenic qualities you can buy. Otherwise you are scragging game balance. Same for the UV/sunlight argument. The allergy says sunlight and UV lights don't say "treat as sunlight"

[Delarn]

Precisely. And due to poor choice of wording, this means a number of incomparable situations are RAW.

As I previously stated, the wording implies that natural healing does not function until you have met the prerequisite "respite". The literal meaning can vary anywhere between and including not having any effect whatsoever, as there are no rules for "recovering" damage (note - it does not say you are unable to recover from the damage - you are unable to recover the damage), and it does not include "healing" in the restriction.


It is yet another poorly written section of the rules in need of clarification (minimum). Also, please explain to me how the following makes sense (particularly taking into account magic): Because the body is unable to repair itself, nothing can repair it.

While having such a restriction apply to natural healing is fine, & makes sense, having it apply to everything is absurd (from both gameplay and realistic viewpoints).



Edit: To provide support, the rules for Regeneration specifically state forms of damage that cannot be healed by it - of which damage caused by failed Survival checks is not one of. This implies (rather strongly) that Regeneration will, in fact, repair such damage.

I'm still waiting for excuses ...

[Mordinvan]

[quote name='BRodda' date='Feb 6 2010, 06:16 PM' post='889428']
The rules don't support that.
[\quote]
Where don't they support that? If you take damage, and its not from something you have a weakness to, or the allergen which caused it is no longer present, you begin to regenerate immediately. As was noted above environmental damage is not one of the things listed under regeneration which is stop it or even slow it down.

[Rystefn]

Like I just explained, Sunlight is composed of UV, Visible Spectrum and Infrared. So remove one of the component and you don't have Sunlight you have lights. Then Alergy to sunlight is mainly alergy to UVs and not visible spectrum or infrared lights.

Non sequitur. If I pull out yellow, it's no longer sunlight, therefore sunlight allergy is mainly allergy to yellow light. See how that doesn't work? It's the same as what you said, which also does not work.

...but the point is that sunlight allergy is in fact UV alergy is true.

No. It's not true. It's not close to true. You haven't got a leg to stand on.

[Mordinvan]

I'm still waiting for excuses ...

Ok, well how about because U.V. is not listed as damaging, and there are no weaponized UV systems in arsenal, or any suggested in runner's companion or running wild?
The complete absence of any listed effect, and exploitation of said effect should be reason to believe that effect does not actually exist.

[Muspellsheimr]

Final time. Vampires do not possess an allergy to ultraviolet light. They do possess an allergy to sunlight. Sunlight does not equal ultraviolet light. Sunlight does equal a combination of multiple frequencies projected by the sun. This is also not taking into account that being a magical virus, the allergy is not magical in nature, as both I and others have suggested as a possibility.

If you disagree, either provide a rules quote or shut the fuck up.

[Delarn]

Ok, well how about because U.V. is not listed as damaging, and there are no weaponized UV systems in arsenal, or any suggested in runner's companion or running wild?
The complete absence of any listed effect, and exploitation of said effect should be reason to believe that effect does not actually exist.

@Mordivan, the guy insulted me by calling me moron/troll ...

[Delarn]

Non sequitur. If I pull out yellow, it's no longer sunlight, therefore sunlight allergy is mainly allergy to yellow light. See how that doesn't work? It's the same as what you said, which also does not work.


No. It's not true. It's not close to true. You haven't got a leg to stand on.

Read that one : http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=889358

[BRodda]

The rules don't support that.

Where don't they support that? If you take damage, and its not from something you have a weakness to, or the allergen which caused it is no longer present, you begin to regenerate immediately. As was noted above environmental damage is not one of the things listed under regeneration which is stop it or even slow it down.

Because the rules for Environmental damage (from environments requiring a survival test) say that you can't heal it. If we wanted to go the RAW route of handling it it would be that the regenerating creature does not get a Regeneration Test until they get out of the extreme environment. So technically I guess they could freeze solid and when the spring thaw (or whatever) happens you get the Regeneration Test to see if your dead or not.

[Delarn]

Final time. Vampires do not possess an allergy to ultraviolet light. They do possess an allergy to sunlight. Sunlight does not equal ultraviolet light. Sunlight does equal a combination of multiple frequencies projected by the sun. This is also not taking into account that being a magical virus, the allergy is not magical in nature, as both I and others have suggested as a possibility.

If you disagree, either provide a rules quote or shut the fuck up.

Rule Quote : SR4A P.60

If you come up with a game mechanic that you
think works better—go for it!
Above all, the rules are here to facilitate telling good stories. Don’t
get bogged down in rules disputes when it’s important to keep the plot
moving, just fudge it and move on. Don’t allow powergaming to run
out of control, but don’t let an unexpected death or glitch derail the
plot either. If you know in advance that a certain outcome would be
more dramatic or amusing than what you are likely to roll, then don’t
bother to roll. When the rules get in the way of the story, ignore the
rules and tell the story.

Rule Quotes from Jason Harding

Jason: Feel free to tell them that the developer said "As long as everyone at your table is cool with a certain interpretation of the rules, it's generally okay.

IS that better ? So in my game Vampire are Allergic to UVs because in RL people that are Allergic to Sunlight are really allergic to UVs.

[Headshot_Joe]

Final time. Vampires do not possess an allergy to ultraviolet light.

Semi-agreed. They may or may not be affected, depending on what exact part of sunlight they are allergic to.

They do possess an allergy to sunlight.

Agreed

Sunlight does not equal ultraviolet light.

Disagreed, Sunlight = Ultraviolet Light, however UV Light =! Sunlight, in the manner that all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Sunlight, being a good source of UV Light, is therefore treated as UV Light, hence UV vision enhancements don't work (as effectively) during daylight.

Sunlight does equal a combination of multiple frequencies projected by the sun.

Agreed.

This is also not taking into account that being a magical virus, the allergy is not magical in nature, as both I and others have suggested as a possibility.

This presents about a three case scenario:

-Vampires are allergic to the exact electromagnetic wave make-up of sunlight, such that the allergy is only suffered when the correct proportions of Visible, UV, Infrared, etc. light are present, in which case artificial duplication of these conditions could be achieved and an effective Vampire Deterrent flashlight could be produced, or they could be artificially exceeded, making a super-duper Anti-Vampire light-beam weapon that might also be powerful enough to set things on fire without additional magnification. In fact, such could be achieved with some sort of composite laser, that could also be useful as a weapon against other targets.

-Vampires are allergic to the magical energy that radiates from the sun, but which is somehow blocked by the physical/astral body of the Earth, and therefore not present at night, and which therefore must also be blocked by whatever shelter the Vampire resides under during the day, including man-made, mundane, not-at-all-magical buildings, making this a less likely scenario.

-Vampires have either a magically or meta-genetically manifesting psycho-somatic illness to the detectable presence of sunlight that displays as an allergy. This is my favorite solution, as it would mean that casting an illusory spell to make a Vampire believe they were under direct sunlight would have the same effect as them actually being under direct sunlight.

There may be another explanation, but the actual CAUSE of damage isn't really named, just the source.

It's like saying Player A was killed with a shotgun. Whether or not the shotgun was shooting buckshot or slugs or some other type of ammunition, or even if it was used as a club is not given, and therefore, all we can say is that Player A was killed by a shotgun in an unknown manner.

Vampires are allergic to sunlight, but the property of sunlight by which they are affected is unknown.

[Kalvan]

Can Vampires operate interfaces such as touchscreens? Do they still have electricity flowing through them or no?

If the touchscreens are pressure based I don't see why not...

[Bushw4cker]

Errr some heated debates....thanks for the comments

[Mordinvan]

@Mordivan, the guy insulted me by calling me moron/troll ...

Not sure if you noticed you avatar lately.... but I'd feel pretty confident in calling you a troll too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Delarn]

Not sure if you noticed you avatar lately.... but I'd feel pretty confident in calling you a troll too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

LOL for the avatar ok. But he was using the Troll = bad bullshitter moron type of way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[LurkerOutThere]

No but the cells would notice that their neighbor is 'dead' and then divide to replace them, or however it is regen works.

Why do you believe this? Be sure and cite your sources.

Headshot_Joe makes some excellent pointd in his three case scenario. The biggest problem with the theory from where I sit is if vampires are allergic to a magical component of sunlight how does that magical component travel through the void. This is presuming that magic operates in a consistant and logical manner in the shadowrun universe, which it does by and large and indeed has been one of the things I love most about the setting, it doesn't resort to "A wizard did it!" very much at all. This is before the very valid concerns Joe brings up about night time and barriers and what have you.

Which brings us back to a scientific argument which means some artificially producable variance of light might indeed do the trick.

As to Muspellsheimr, i recommend just ignoring him either through technical means or otherwise obviously her (or i guess it could be a she, but the behavior type seldom holds) typifies the angry RPG guy raging impotantly somewhere in the depths of the internet.

[Daylen]

but what if its not the UV but the shortwave IR? or maybe its the X-rays! the sun does put out a small amount of them. Personally I think its the Muons.

[Delarn]

As to Muspellsheimr, i recommend just ignoring him either through technical means or otherwise obviously her (or i guess it could be a she, but the behavior type seldom holds) typifies the angry RPG guy raging impotantly somewhere in the depths of the internet.

Aren't we here to have fun and discuss how we see the worl of shadowrun ? Bashing and Flaming someone just because you disagree with him is just plain stupid right ?
Asking for excuses is something natural when you are insulted. And if the guy can't do it, it means he doesn't have big enough ball to see he made a mistake.

Calling me a girl is not as insulting as calling me a moron. I call everyone "Fillette" at job. So I'm used to it. I was not raging that much, but if a call you a total moron because I disagree with you and that you only write bullshit wouldn't you ask for excuses ?

He asked me for rules quote I gave him rules quotes. He has to be happy about it and just give me excuses.

RPG is like philosophy : You debate your point of view and keep in mind that you are all seeing the same apple but in different perspective. The dev told in page 60 of SR4 exactly it. And if they weren't explicit about sunlight is to debate and compromise to achieve a rule that fits everyone in the community. But if the community starts flamming at each other, because of different point of view, it's just plain stupid to call us a community.

I agree with the fact that it may not be UVs that give damages to Vampires, but in an other thread we were starting a theory that mana is vehiculed by sunlight and then Skimmed by the earth (or the people on it) to be usable. So if VVHMH is affected by RAW mana source, and that sunlight is the vehicule of RAW mana. Then vampires are Damaged by the RAW mana rather then Sunlight and thus have the Allergy to sunlight, but not really sunlight but the mana that travels on it.

I wish people would debate on that theory, because it's a theorical thread when we talk about what in sunlight hurt the vampire.

I agree that it could also be the wavelenght, but as I contributed to the what is the source of magic thread, I tend to explain this by RAW mana source and VVHMH not able to process it.

[Manunancy]

Where don't they support that? If you take damage, and its not from something you have a weakness to, or the allergen which caused it is no longer present, you begin to regenerate immediately. As was noted above environmental damage is not one of the things listed under regeneration which is stop it or even slow it down.


Because the rules for Environmental damage (from environments requiring a survival test) say that you can't heal it. If we wanted to go the RAW route of handling it it would be that the regenerating creature does not get a Regeneration Test until they get out of the extreme environment. So technically I guess they could freeze solid and when the spring thaw (or whatever) happens you get the Regeneration Test to see if your dead or not.

From the rule citation, it seems environmental damage is stun damage, which later overflows into physical. Dependign on hwo exactly regeneration work, my own interpretation of it would that regeneration doesn't help with the stun effect, but can heal the overflow.

which means that were a non-regenerating metahuman shuts down then dies, a vampire would shut down and stay there, unless the environment id hazardous to inflict more damage than he can regenerate. It makes the vampire better able live through such problems, thouhg it won't help him operating in it.

[Muspellsheimr]

IS that better ? So in my game Vampire are Allergic to UVs because in RL people that are Allergic to Sunlight are really allergic to UVs.

So, when called upon for a rules quote, you resort to a vague guideline for altering rules, not actual rules, that can be used to "prove" you wrong literally just as easily as it can be used to support your position - in fact, can support just about anything (vague, remember)?


Sunlight allergies, according to the Rules, is not equivalent to an ultraviolet allergy. Such allergies in real life are most often to the ultraviolet frequencies, true, but not necessarily. Further, calling such allergies "sunlight allergies" is incorrect, like vast numbers of other common phrases.


So, you have been repeatedly posting in a manner effectively claiming you are correct in a false interpretation of the rules with no support. You are either doing so intentionally to instigate an argument or flaming (Trolling), or are unable to understand your position is false (low intelligence, idiot, or moron).

@Mordivan, the guy insulted me by calling me moron/troll ...

And I'm almost surprised I have not received a warning for personal attacks yet.