SR4 Says Vampires are immune to age, pathogens and toxins, are they also immune to radiation and/or extreme temperatures? If they are, what kind of modifiers would they suffer? and what other HMHVV infected would also have the same immunity? Just HMHVV1? Thanks

They are not immune to radiation or extreme temperature/environments.

They do, however, typically Regenerate any damage caused by such conditions at least as fast as it occurs, meaning Immunity would be largely redundant anyways. Because of how Regeneration works, it should also repair any non-damage side effects caused by prolonged radiation exposure, but this is not supported in the mechanics, only fluff.

Rules or no, they shouldn't be able to regenerate from UV or deeper radiation. That's what makes sunlight harmful to people with allergies to sunburn anyway. Internal propblems X-Ray machines would normally be used to diagnose should instead call for medical deep radar or ultrasound. If you are going to explain away vampirism as a pathogenically commnicable disease, it shouldn't be a heads I win, tails you lose sort of proposition.

But vampires have no allergy to UV or such. It is sunlight... But yeah i know this is the magical vampire/ biological vampire - discussion then. I prefer my vampires magical, so UV-lights and such won't have the effect (Maybe a spell called SUNLIGHT may), since it is not the sun. It is the power of life that burns the vampire (or the eye of god, or whatever weird explanation the vampires have).

Back to the topic: radiation should be no problem. Extreme temperatures on the other hand... i could guess that excecive cold could freeze the vampire down, so he can't move and get excessive damage to all wet tissue (brains and such) and as such MAY be destroyed... but that would take a LOT of cold, i think.

Vampiric vulnerability to sunlight is traditionally been a mystical weakness, not a biological allergen. The weakness to ultraviolet wavelengths popularized by movies such as Blade has no real basis in vampire myths.

Granted - Shadowrun vampires do deviate from the vampires of classical myth but the vampiric virus remains an Awakened virus - aka magical in nature, as are the properties granted by it. Also note that the allergy is to sunlight, not ultraviolet light.

In simple terms, no. There is no difference by damage caused by ultraviolet radiation, nuclear radiation, or any other radiation. None of those trigger the vampire's allergy to sunlight. Even if the allergy was indeed to ultraviolet frequencies, it would still only prevent Regeneration while the vampire remains exposed - as soon as the exposure is removed, damage caused Regenerates normally.


Not really. Damage caused by extreme cold temperatures is due to cell death (frostbite). Unless the vampire looses Regeneration due to a mana ebb or similar, even the weakest (1 Body, 1 Magic) would heal damage faster than it is caused in all but the most extreme environments (approaching absolute zero) - at least, by the rules, as I have no personal experience as to exactly how fast vampires regenerate, or the rate damage is caused by such temperatures.

even so, a vampire shadowrunner (PC) isnt going to want to tax his regenerating abilities unless theyre fairly confident that theyre not going to get shot at in those extreme areas anyway. So really it boils down to a game balance comparison: Is it unbalanced to let an infected/regenerating character not have to worry about environmentally sealing their armor/protective clothing versus those elements? Given the relative cheap cost and availability, the answer is: no, not really.

In extreme temperatures they still burn or freeze. Vampires can still get heatstroke, hypothermia or frostbite. They might last a bit longer or regrow their nose, but you leave them in the cold long enough they will still freeze solid.

Never forget that vampires aren't immune to pain. Even if they'll regenerate damage, it still isn't going to be a pleasant experience. I know that a lot of RPG sessions tend to treat pain as if it didn't exist unless it's in spell form or some other unnatural imposed version of it, but one would think that the "average" vampire wouldn't be particularly thrilled at the idea of exposing themselves to fire, or freezing temperatures, or radiation exposure, even if they knew they could probably survive it and regenerate the damage later on.

UV is sunlight...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight

BRodda: No. Unless the damaging effects of the cold or heat (or fire, if you prefer) can exceed the rate the vampire regenerates damage, it will be incapable of causing any permanent effects. Frostbite, as an example, is cell death due to extreme cold, most often occurring in extremities - this is precisely the type of effect regeneration repairs (cell/tissue damage & death). And if the vampire is not suffering from frostbite, the tissue will not freeze.

Eimi: Unless the damage is inflicted at a rate greater than the vampire's regeneration speed, they would likely feel little more than a 'tingling' sensation, as the tissue is repaired instantaneously as the injury is inflicted. While this may be an uncomfortable feeling, it would not be painful (it would also be far easier to ignore, or 'get used to' than pain; for some individuals, it may even be 'pleasant' in a way).



Edit: Delarn: Incorrect. Sunlight contains a variety of different wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation, of which ultraviolet light is one of. Sunlight is not composed purely of ultraviolet frequencies, and ultraviolet light alone is not sufficient to duplicate sunlight (sunlight actually includes three different frequencies of ultraviolet radiation, among others). I suggest you actually read what you link - preferably prior to making false statements about it.

Edit: Eimi: As an example, if the vampire is regenerating at a rate of 3 damage per combat turn, and suffering damage from exposure to fire at a rate of 2 damage per combat turn, the regeneration provides near-instantaneous compensation for the damage caused by the fire, resulting in no pain (due to lack of damage - it would never reach the nerves to send signals, and if it was somehow in direct contact with the nerves, the damage still would unlikely register due to the healing rate). The tingling sensation I suggested can be compared to the itching that commonly occurs when wounds (particularly cuts & scrapes) heal.

No... Sunlight is a broad band of EM radiation which includes, but is not limited to, UV. The vampire is allergic to whole sunlight, not to individual bits and pieces from other sources. Again, due to the magical nature of the infection, one could make a case that it is not possible to technologically synthesize artificial sunlight in such a way as to trigger the allergy. If the intent was for raw UV to cause problems, the allergy would be to UV, not sunlight.

According to the rules until they are in a situation where they are no longer making survival rolls from the environment the damage can't be healed.

Pg 137 SR4A


So at best regeneration gives you a bonus to your survival dice pool to avoid taking the damage in the first place, but once you take it your screwed until your someplace out of the weather. Once out of the weather regeneration will kick in and they will be fine; but if they overflow in the wilderness they are dead just like anybody else.

I actually never noticed the "cannot be recovered" clause in that area. It then falls down to how a particular GM interprets "recovers", as that phrase is not used in any other section of the rules I am aware of (certainly not Healing).

The use of that phrase seems to imply that a character cannot naturally heal damage, & would not apply to artificial healing, such as magic or First Aid.

Rules as Written, it does not actually apply to anything, as there are no methods of "recovering" from damage presented - a stretch, as "recover" is generally a synonym for "heal", but still technically correct. Certainly something I will be clarifying in my House Errata.

Can Vampires operate interfaces such as touchscreens? Do they still have electricity flowing through them or no?

I'm not so sure about that. I figure that as soon as cells start dying (frostbite) they'll just be regenerated right away. I don't actually see this being anything more then extremely uncomfortable.

Yes. Vampire in SR are not "undead". They are suffering from a disease, a magical disease, but a disease non the less. They are closer to vampires in Blade than those in Dracula.

Thanks for the excellent comments, I was thinking in extreme temperatures unprotected extremities like fingers and toes would snap off but would easily regenerate. Note to self, no more vampire PC's in my campaigns. This is my Third Post on a infected topic.

The cells aren't just dying. They are frozen. They can't heal until they melt. Once they melt they heal as normal. Or at least that's how I rule it. Regen doesn't melt stuff.

Remove ultraviolet and you don't have sunlight ... So UV is sunlight and mostly the most damageable. And when you think of sunlight allergy in RL it's mainly to UVs. So if Sunlight is not UV then UV is not light either. Think that a whole need to have all component to be counted has a whole. So UV is sunlight ... Like Sunlight is visible spectrum and also Infrared.

Like I just explained, Sunlight is composed of UV, Visible Spectrum and Infrared. So remove one of the component and you don't have Sunlight you have lights. Then Alergy to sunlight is mainly alergy to UVs and not visible spectrum or infrared lights.

So the statement UV is sunlight is not quite true, but the point is that sunlight allergy is in fact UV alergy is true.

You may argue that RL^TM sunlight allergy is caused by UV, but when we are talking about a ficticious disease provoked by an AWAKENED virus whose symptoms and nature aren't completely discovered, all bets are off.
Sure, vampiric allergy to sunlight could be only for the UV part, but could also be the whole spectrum too. In the end we can't know for sure unless a dev tell us which it is.

Then artificial light that does not contain UV and IR is not safe for them either because LIGHT would be the problem. Light to be called sunlight needs UV and IR with the visible spectrum. If the Sunlight is not the problem then it's the raw mana flowing with the sunlight that make them burn because of the Vampire strain of the virus is reactive to mana and not sunlight. (source for that argument : http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=29284 )

But I still think that the allergy to sunlight is from UV. (I think it was explained in 2nd or 3rd ed)

That's the real crux of the problem right there - we just don't have enough information. It's a glaring omission, and it would have been nice if it had been specified, especially with vampire PCs now being an option. It is certainly something that a 6th World scientist would have tested at some point.

In your own games I'd just make a ruling and run with it, either artificial lights can invoke the allergy or not. What wavelength or wavelengths is required will have little effect on game play, unless you rule that any artificial light hurts vamps (this is clearly not intended by the rules). It really depends on how much of a weakness you want the allergy to be - if it cannot be duplicated using tech it is much easier to avoid (and much less of a weakness) than if any properly equipped person can fry. Of course, even if you rule artificial light can't hurt vamps, it could make for an interesting additional flaw for a vamp PC to take, either as an allergy or a phobia.

No. We have plenty of information. & Delarn is, intentionally or not (aka troll or moron), he is spewing obvious bullshit.

Vampires have an allergy to sunlight. Ultraviolet light does not affect them in itself. Visible light does not affect them in itself. Nor does Infrared. It is the full combination of wavelengths that compose sunlight that is harmful to vampires.

I beg you pardon ? Can I have excuses ... Who are you to have the right to call me that ?

I just sent a tweet to the devs to define Sunlight and what cause Allergy to it ! We'll be fixed.

--- Edit ---
Albinos trait gives Allergy to sunlight ... Are they hit by VVHMH ?

Information complement : http://www.dermnet.org.nz/reactions/photosensitivity.html


If it's not UV then it's for an other F****** reason. And that reason may be MANA vehiculed in sunlight (Wich is theorically discussed in this thread : http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=29284 )

F******ly Awakened or not VVHMH is still a retrovirus that must add the magus gene to the infected(And thus awakening the victim). It can imbue a GENETICALLY failure to protect the victim from UV like those GENETICAL diseases : Photosensitivity is caused by a pre-existing genetic disorder, e.g.:xeroderma pigmentosum, Bloom syndrome, Rothmund Thomson syndrome.

Hokay, by the letter of the rules a vampire is affected by environmental hazards same as everyone else. They do not recover from the ongoing affects until they meet the condition to do so just as every one else. Similarly vampires only suffer their penalties and damages from Sunlight. The reason for that is depressingly vague however that's the way the rules stand as written.

No but the cells would notice that their neighbor is 'dead' and then divide to replace them, or however it is regen works.

If I recall correctly AH actually already talked about this, and said there was some supernatural quality about 'sunlight' which caused vamps to have the problem. If I'm misremembering this, then please forgive me, but I seem to remember him stating UV lamps were effectively useless for defense against vampires and the like, as would light from any star other then Sol.

Precisely. And due to poor choice of wording, this means a number of incomparable situations are RAW.

As I previously stated, the wording implies that natural healing does not function until you have met the prerequisite "respite". The literal meaning can vary anywhere between and including not having any effect whatsoever, as there are no rules for "recovering" damage (note - it does not say you are unable to recover from the damage - you are unable to recover the damage), and it does not include "healing" in the restriction.


It is yet another poorly written section of the rules in need of clarification (minimum). Also, please explain to me how the following makes sense (particularly taking into account magic): Because the body is unable to repair itself, nothing can repair it.

While having such a restriction apply to natural healing is fine, & makes sense, having it apply to everything is absurd (from both gameplay and realistic viewpoints).



Edit: To provide support, the rules for Regeneration specifically state forms of damage that cannot be healed by it - of which damage caused by failed Survival checks is not one of. This implies (rather strongly) that Regeneration will, in fact, repair such damage.

The rules don't support that. If you want to be immune to cold and heat there are mutagenic qualities you can buy. Otherwise you are scragging game balance. Same for the UV/sunlight argument. The allergy says sunlight and UV lights don't say "treat as sunlight"

I'm still waiting for excuses ...

[quote name='BRodda' date='Feb 6 2010, 06:16 PM' post='889428']
The rules don't support that.
[\quote]
Where don't they support that? If you take damage, and its not from something you have a weakness to, or the allergen which caused it is no longer present, you begin to regenerate immediately. As was noted above environmental damage is not one of the things listed under regeneration which is stop it or even slow it down.

Non sequitur. If I pull out yellow, it's no longer sunlight, therefore sunlight allergy is mainly allergy to yellow light. See how that doesn't work? It's the same as what you said, which also does not work.


No. It's not true. It's not close to true. You haven't got a leg to stand on.

Ok, well how about because U.V. is not listed as damaging, and there are no weaponized UV systems in arsenal, or any suggested in runner's companion or running wild?
The complete absence of any listed effect, and exploitation of said effect should be reason to believe that effect does not actually exist.

Final time. Vampires do not possess an allergy to ultraviolet light. They do possess an allergy to sunlight. Sunlight does not equal ultraviolet light. Sunlight does equal a combination of multiple frequencies projected by the sun. This is also not taking into account that being a magical virus, the allergy is not magical in nature, as both I and others have suggested as a possibility.

If you disagree, either provide a rules quote or shut the fuck up.

@Mordivan, the guy insulted me by calling me moron/troll ...

Read that one : http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=889358

Because the rules for Environmental damage (from environments requiring a survival test) say that you can't heal it. If we wanted to go the RAW route of handling it it would be that the regenerating creature does not get a Regeneration Test until they get out of the extreme environment. So technically I guess they could freeze solid and when the spring thaw (or whatever) happens you get the Regeneration Test to see if your dead or not.

Rule Quote : SR4A P.60


Rule Quotes from Jason Harding


IS that better ? So in my game Vampire are Allergic to UVs because in RL people that are Allergic to Sunlight are really allergic to UVs.

Semi-agreed. They may or may not be affected, depending on what exact part of sunlight they are allergic to.

Agreed

Disagreed, Sunlight = Ultraviolet Light, however UV Light =! Sunlight, in the manner that all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Sunlight, being a good source of UV Light, is therefore treated as UV Light, hence UV vision enhancements don't work (as effectively) during daylight.

Agreed.

This presents about a three case scenario:

-Vampires are allergic to the exact electromagnetic wave make-up of sunlight, such that the allergy is only suffered when the correct proportions of Visible, UV, Infrared, etc. light are present, in which case artificial duplication of these conditions could be achieved and an effective Vampire Deterrent flashlight could be produced, or they could be artificially exceeded, making a super-duper Anti-Vampire light-beam weapon that might also be powerful enough to set things on fire without additional magnification. In fact, such could be achieved with some sort of composite laser, that could also be useful as a weapon against other targets.

-Vampires are allergic to the magical energy that radiates from the sun, but which is somehow blocked by the physical/astral body of the Earth, and therefore not present at night, and which therefore must also be blocked by whatever shelter the Vampire resides under during the day, including man-made, mundane, not-at-all-magical buildings, making this a less likely scenario.

-Vampires have either a magically or meta-genetically manifesting psycho-somatic illness to the detectable presence of sunlight that displays as an allergy. This is my favorite solution, as it would mean that casting an illusory spell to make a Vampire believe they were under direct sunlight would have the same effect as them actually being under direct sunlight.

There may be another explanation, but the actual CAUSE of damage isn't really named, just the source.

It's like saying Player A was killed with a shotgun. Whether or not the shotgun was shooting buckshot or slugs or some other type of ammunition, or even if it was used as a club is not given, and therefore, all we can say is that Player A was killed by a shotgun in an unknown manner.

Vampires are allergic to sunlight, but the property of sunlight by which they are affected is unknown.

If the touchscreens are pressure based I don't see why not...

Errr some heated debates....thanks for the comments

Not sure if you noticed you avatar lately.... but I'd feel pretty confident in calling you a troll too.

LOL for the avatar ok. But he was using the Troll = bad bullshitter moron type of way

Why do you believe this? Be sure and cite your sources.

Headshot_Joe makes some excellent pointd in his three case scenario. The biggest problem with the theory from where I sit is if vampires are allergic to a magical component of sunlight how does that magical component travel through the void. This is presuming that magic operates in a consistant and logical manner in the shadowrun universe, which it does by and large and indeed has been one of the things I love most about the setting, it doesn't resort to "A wizard did it!" very much at all. This is before the very valid concerns Joe brings up about night time and barriers and what have you.

Which brings us back to a scientific argument which means some artificially producable variance of light might indeed do the trick.

As to Muspellsheimr, i recommend just ignoring him either through technical means or otherwise obviously her (or i guess it could be a she, but the behavior type seldom holds) typifies the angry RPG guy raging impotantly somewhere in the depths of the internet.

but what if its not the UV but the shortwave IR? or maybe its the X-rays! the sun does put out a small amount of them. Personally I think its the Muons.

Aren't we here to have fun and discuss how we see the worl of shadowrun ? Bashing and Flaming someone just because you disagree with him is just plain stupid right ?
Asking for excuses is something natural when you are insulted. And if the guy can't do it, it means he doesn't have big enough ball to see he made a mistake.

Calling me a girl is not as insulting as calling me a moron. I call everyone "Fillette" at job. So I'm used to it. I was not raging that much, but if a call you a total moron because I disagree with you and that you only write bullshit wouldn't you ask for excuses ?

He asked me for rules quote I gave him rules quotes. He has to be happy about it and just give me excuses.

RPG is like philosophy : You debate your point of view and keep in mind that you are all seeing the same apple but in different perspective. The dev told in page 60 of SR4 exactly it. And if they weren't explicit about sunlight is to debate and compromise to achieve a rule that fits everyone in the community. But if the community starts flamming at each other, because of different point of view, it's just plain stupid to call us a community.

I agree with the fact that it may not be UVs that give damages to Vampires, but in an other thread we were starting a theory that mana is vehiculed by sunlight and then Skimmed by the earth (or the people on it) to be usable. So if VVHMH is affected by RAW mana source, and that sunlight is the vehicule of RAW mana. Then vampires are Damaged by the RAW mana rather then Sunlight and thus have the Allergy to sunlight, but not really sunlight but the mana that travels on it.

I wish people would debate on that theory, because it's a theorical thread when we talk about what in sunlight hurt the vampire.

I agree that it could also be the wavelenght, but as I contributed to the what is the source of magic thread, I tend to explain this by RAW mana source and VVHMH not able to process it.

From the rule citation, it seems environmental damage is stun damage, which later overflows into physical. Dependign on hwo exactly regeneration work, my own interpretation of it would that regeneration doesn't help with the stun effect, but can heal the overflow.

which means that were a non-regenerating metahuman shuts down then dies, a vampire would shut down and stay there, unless the environment id hazardous to inflict more damage than he can regenerate. It makes the vampire better able live through such problems, thouhg it won't help him operating in it.

So, when called upon for a rules quote, you resort to a vague guideline for altering rules, not actual rules, that can be used to "prove" you wrong literally just as easily as it can be used to support your position - in fact, can support just about anything (vague, remember)?


Sunlight allergies, according to the Rules, is not equivalent to an ultraviolet allergy. Such allergies in real life are most often to the ultraviolet frequencies, true, but not necessarily. Further, calling such allergies "sunlight allergies" is incorrect, like vast numbers of other common phrases.


So, you have been repeatedly posting in a manner effectively claiming you are correct in a false interpretation of the rules with no support. You are either doing so intentionally to instigate an argument or flaming (Trolling), or are unable to understand your position is false (low intelligence, idiot, or moron).




And I'm almost surprised I have not received a warning for personal attacks yet.