Astral Patrolling and Infiltration, Need to confirm GM rulling Options

[PatB]

Chummers, I need to confirm the following I ruled during my last game: the players had to find a guy that was kidnapped by other runners. They managed to find the site, so the mage decided to peek around, astral projection style.

The site had a Watcher patrolling the astral. The mage player said he was going in carefully to make sure that he won't attract the attention of any patrol. I made him roll an Infiltration test (from previous threads, treating the astral like the physical seems the best way to deal).

The mage rolled 3 hits, which guaranteed an automatic success against the Watcher (Force 1 and Assenssing 1, max 2 hits possible). The mage was able to move around, make the proper Assenssing test to find the target and kidnapping runners (feelings of stress and fear was palpable in the astral), and get out with a snap.

Could you confirm if this was done correctly or not ?? (note: GM lesson learned - next time, use a spirit, not a watcher, for astral patrolling).

Thanks in advance

[The Jopp]

Personally I would NOT follow that ruling even though it follows RAW.

The point with watchers is that they are supposed to be able to guard and discover things, very much like a human security guard. When shit hits the fan the security guard/Watcher calls in support troops in the guise of Heavy Security/Spirits.

I would rather call Watchers F1 for all other tests than perception and make a caster choose a force for the watcher purely to gauge it’s attribute and perception skill.

Not much of a watcher if it is blind.

You can also add a dice bonus of +3 for intentionally looking for something giving them a pool of 5D6 with max successes of NET HITS of 2.

[Dragnar]

By RAW, the ruling was correct and yes, by RAW watchers are utterly useless. They can't watch over anything, they have the search power but too low a DP to ever find anything and as they don't have the telepathic link to the summoner and die in one hit they don't even work as stationary alarm sirens.

[deek]

I don't know, I think that was good use of Infiltration by the player and a good ruling by the GM to allow it. I've had a couple mages astrally scout in my games a ton of times and none of them ever thought to use infiltration to hide from other spirits.

The watcher is still useful though, maybe not for detecting astral infiltration, but once those bodies get in the area, they aren't going to be hiding from it in the physical world. So, while a F1 watcher may not be able to detect a decent mage astrally scouting, they are still going to be able to alert the big spirits/mages once someone physically gets close.

[Dragnar]

No, they're not, because they still only have 2 dice in their perception pool, which isn't enough to actually notice anyone physically getting close, even adjusting for the fact that they get to ignore chameleon suits and bad lighting.

[Summerstorm]

To avoid the uselessness of watchers i allow in my group the summoning of a Force (magic/2) Watcher and also give them a +2 dice bonus on searching. That at least lets them perform on spirit rating 3-5 level.

To go back: Yeah that was good enough i guess, i would have done it pretty much the same. (Bu one could always have MORE watcher/spirits and magicians looking around. Also i think there are bonus dice involved with patroling a smaller area than 10.000 m². If applicable.

[deek]

No, they're not, because they still only have 2 dice in their perception pool, which isn't enough to actually notice anyone physically getting close, even adjusting for the fact that they get to ignore chameleon suits and bad lighting.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I wouldn't make a watcher have to roll to see a living creature. In the astral, that metahuman sneaking around is still a bright beacon. So, unless they are somehow masking or hiding their astral presence, the watcher is going to see them and report back to whomever that something is there. At my table, you don't have to roll for things that are obvious.

[PatB]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I wouldn't make a watcher have to roll to see a living creature. In the astral, that metahuman sneaking around is still a bright beacon. So, unless they are somehow masking or hiding their astral presence, the watcher is going to see them and report back to whomever that something is there. At my table, you don't have to roll for things that are obvious.

I would disagree on this. First of, being mundane or astrally projecting, you're still a beacon in the astral (the only difference is the type of beacon). Secondly, using any living/non-living obstacle (wall, window, plants, etc) will hide that beacon. And lastly, which is why I accepted the mage using Infiltration, is that Infiltration is the art of making yourself unnoticeable. In 2070, with the magic firmly in place, any training in that skill is bound to include tips and tricks to evade the watchful eyes of the astral entities.

[Dragnar]

Evading astral spotters isn't even a different skillset from evading physical spotters, because assensing has exactly the same line of effect (apart from the fact that you can hide behind windows against astral watchers).
And noticing something obvious like a neon sign or a yelling person is threshold 1 by RAW (ie: very easy for people more skilled than watchers, but still requiring a roll).
So yes, if you change the rule and play by some houserule specifically making noticing people easier, than noticing people will be easier (obviously), which may make even watcher spirits useful.
I didn't discuss deek's houserules, but the official ones, though.

[The Jopp]

Evading astral spotters isn't even a different skillset from evading physical spotters, because assensing has exactly the same line of effect

Here I disagree.

Assensing is all about assensing an aura – but the watcher must first FIND the aura.

Assensign is only used here in a way of describing what sense is used but there should be no assensign test, just an opposed stealth test but using the assensing pool.

[DireRadiant]

Could you confirm if this was done correctly or not ?? (note: GM lesson learned - next time, use a spirit, not a watcher, for astral patrolling).

Did you have fun? Did the player have fun? Then you did awesome.

Watchers are effective in packs, use teamworks tests, and don't forgot adding a few modifiers such as actively searching. Search power isn't that effective for patrolling, it does require you already know what you are looking for, and if you know someone is coming, why wait around when you can go look for them?

Also, consider that any rating 1 spirit would have been just as ineffective. Though there are some with additional powers that would have helped them do a better job.

[Aerospider]

Watchers are especially weak against magical threats, but my understanding is that their primary use is against the non-magical kind. Any magician who's been awakened for more than a month can dupe a watcher – they are the most basic and primitive of magical tools.

If you're expecting a (non-awakened) street gang might rain down on your safehouse in their droves then a watcher will spot it coming and give you enough warning to escape without needing a roll at all.

If you're expecting someone to astrally infiltrate your safehouse then yes, for God's sake don't trust the job to what is not much more than a figment of your imagination!

Similarly for the search power - looking for a distinctive aura that's been out and about a lot recently is right up their alley, but finding something non-living or astrally hidden is likely to be out of their scope. Looking at the search power modifier table it looks woefully incomplete: I could (and would) come up with more possible modifiers both positive and negative.

You run into difficulty when someone in the physical plane is using Infiltration – it's been debated elsewhere on DS as to whether it counts against astral observers. IIRC the consensus said it does, though as GM I would want the players to specify they were hiding from astral observers as well and would probably penalise their physical inconspicuity (that should so be a word) as something of a trade-off.

Another option to make watchers useful in a watching capacity is to have lots of them. Under the rules for perception* each additional perceiver adds one die to the highest rating. So five watchers would roll six dice – not amazing but proficient and may get boosted by other modifiers. Problems with this are the Charisma limit (but then it should be high for a summoning character anyway) and drain, so best to repeatedly summon short life-span watchers (e.g. it's easier to resist 2 x 1DV than 1 x 2DV).

Ultimately magicians are rare enough that even they can neglect to defend against awakened threats if they don't have reason to expect any, so often a watcher will be considered a cheap and easy way to get something done. If the job is hard, crucial or in the face of awakened adversity then don't be such a skinflint and summon a proper spirit.

* RAW doesn't explicitly say that Assensing is the astral equivalent of the Perception skill, but if it isn't then watchers roll 0 dice to notice something by having to default, which cannot have been intended.

[FriendoftheDork]

Watchers are especially weak against magical threats, but my understanding is that their primary use is against the non-magical kind. Any magician who's been awakened for more than a month can dupe a watcher – they are the most basic and primitive of magical tools.

If you're expecting a (non-awakened) street gang might rain down on your safehouse in their droves then a watcher will spot it coming and give you enough warning to escape without needing a roll at all.

If you're expecting someone to astrally infiltrate your safehouse then yes, for God's sake don't trust the job to what is not much more than a figment of your imagination!

Similarly for the search power - looking for a distinctive aura that's been out and about a lot recently is right up their alley, but finding something non-living or astrally hidden is likely to be out of their scope. Looking at the search power modifier table it looks woefully incomplete: I could (and would) come up with more possible modifiers both positive and negative.

You run into difficulty when someone in the physical plane is using Infiltration – it's been debated elsewhere on DS as to whether it counts against astral observers. IIRC the consensus said it does, though as GM I would want the players to specify they were hiding from astral observers as well and would probably penalise their physical inconspicuity (that should so be a word) as something of a trade-off.

Another option to make watchers useful in a watching capacity is to have lots of them. Under the rules for perception* each additional perceiver adds one die to the highest rating. So five watchers would roll six dice – not amazing but proficient and may get boosted by other modifiers. Problems with this are the Charisma limit (but then it should be high for a summoning character anyway) and drain, so best to repeatedly summon short life-span watchers (e.g. it's easier to resist 2 x 1DV than 1 x 2DV).

Ultimately magicians are rare enough that even they can neglect to defend against awakened threats if they don't have reason to expect any, so often a watcher will be considered a cheap and easy way to get something done. If the job is hard, crucial or in the face of awakened adversity then don't be such a skinflint and summon a proper spirit.

* RAW doesn't explicitly say that Assensing is the astral equivalent of the Perception skill, but if it isn't then watchers roll 0 dice to notice something by having to default, which cannot have been intended.

This!

However I will like to ask you all a question: Where in SR rulebook does it say that you can hide in plain sight using the infiltration skill? How can you hide without something to conceal you or hide you? Even a watcher spirit may bark when a certain door is open or anything astral moves through the south wall. Infiltration could work IMO but you might not always be able to use it.

[The Jopp]

However I will like to ask you all a question: Where in SR rulebook does it say that you can hide in plain sight using the infiltration skill?

I would say if it is a barren room/corridor with no cover and no way for the infiltrator to know where the watcher/guard is looking they will be discovered - especially if a door is suddenly opened for no reason by an invisible man.

[Aerospider]

I would say if it is a barren room/corridor with no cover and no way for the infiltrator to know where the watcher/guard is looking they will be discovered - especially if a door is suddenly opened for no reason by an invisible man.

Exactly so. This kind of situation is an unconscious trap-mechanism that will need some ingenuity to defeat. Perception/Assensing tests are for more abstract scenarios where the variables are too myriad to bother with.

Remember - perception isn't about whether you see something it's about whether you notice something. Do you think to turn your head at a particular moment? Do you subconsciously disregard that blur in your peripheral vision? Do you remember that there weren't so many footprints around here the last time you looked? Etc.

[forgarn]

This!

However I will like to ask you all a question: Where in SR rulebook does it say that you can hide in plain sight using the infiltration skill? How can you hide without something to conceal you or hide you? Even a watcher spirit may bark when a certain door is open or anything astral moves through the south wall. Infiltration could work IMO but you might not always be able to use it.

But where are you in plain sight? Remember the astral is a mirror of of this plane and everything reflects at least a shadow. And hiding behind a window will block your aura from those on the other side of said window. So on the astral, anything that can hide you on the physical can hide you on the astral and then some.

[DireRadiant]

Astral beings are as omniscient as I am.

[LurkerOutThere]

That's not a fair standard dire as I hear your pretty omnicient.

[Redjack]

Just a quick thought.. It seems most people tend to ignore modifiers.

Perceiver is actively looking/listening for it +3
Object/sound stands out in some way +2

[deek]

But where are you in plain sight? Remember the astral is a mirror of of this plane and everything reflects at least a shadow. And hiding behind a window will block your aura from those on the other side of said window. So on the astral, anything that can hide you on the physical can hide you on the astral and then some.

In my estimation, darkness and shadows are quite helpful when infiltrating. I would think they would be used quite often...but I wouldn't think those would help hide you from an astral observer.

Now, I think that if you are able to stay out of line of sight completely, then maybe the watcher is useless against you. But, I could also see that watchers are also picking up on your emotions and that could be a bigger astral volume than just your normal body in the physical.

I'd have to agree with one of the posts above. Unless the infiltrator points out they are taking into account astral objects (which they may or may not even be aware of), then I'd have a hard time giving the watcher an auto-fail against mundanes...

[forgarn]

In my estimation, darkness and shadows are quite helpful when infiltrating. I would think they would be used quite often...but I wouldn't think those would help hide you from an astral observer.

Now, I think that if you are able to stay out of line of sight completely, then maybe the watcher is useless against you. But, I could also see that watchers are also picking up on your emotions and that could be a bigger astral volume than just your normal body in the physical.

I'd have to agree with one of the posts above. Unless the infiltrator points out they are taking into account astral objects (which they may or may not even be aware of), then I'd have a hard time giving the watcher an auto-fail against mundanes...

But are we talking about a mundane being seen by an astral watcher, or are we talking about the OP where the mage was astral projecting and using infiltration? You still have to take into account the box is still on the astral plane and the ap mage can still hide behind it.

[deek]

But are we talking about a mundane being seen by an astral watcher, or are we talking about the OP where the mage was astral projecting and using infiltration? You still have to take into account the box is still on the astral plane and the ap mage can still hide behind it.

Well, I am assuming the OP's original situation, but continued. Meaning, I have no issue with the astrally projecting mage using infiltration and having basically no chance to be seen by a lone watcher. But when the mage's team comes on the scene, even knowing there is a watcher around, infiltration alone, by the mundanes, is still rather easy for he watcher to find. Granted, if the mage is astrally perceiving and directing the team's movement to stay out of line of sight and whatnot, then that puts advantage back to the mundanes, but without that, the watcher is likely going to see the mundanes on the astral as they move about, even with really good "physical" infiltration.

At least that is my take and what has always made sense to me.

[Tsuul]

Use some watchers as obvious bait guards and hide others to watch approaches that avoid those bait watchers. Use your watchers offensively.

[DireRadiant]

Well, I am assuming the OP's original situation, but continued. Meaning, I have no issue with the astrally projecting mage using infiltration and having basically no chance to be seen by a lone watcher. But when the mage's team comes on the scene, even knowing there is a watcher around, infiltration alone, by the mundanes, is still rather easy for he watcher to find. Granted, if the mage is astrally perceiving and directing the team's movement to stay out of line of sight and whatnot, then that puts advantage back to the mundanes, but without that, the watcher is likely going to see the mundanes on the astral as they move about, even with really good "physical" infiltration.

At least that is my take and what has always made sense to me.

I suppose if you assume the situation of an astral perceiver viewing a mundane if it's something that's out of it's element and understanding and thus cannot be countered. For example, for mundanes to perceive spirits materialized in the mundane world, the rules are explicit about how a mundane perceives them (You will also note there are no explicit mechanics for what you are saying, only some fluff descriptions) . However, should a Materialized spirit have the infiltration skill, does this also mean that the spirit is also incapable of using this? Are you really arguing that infiltration skill is a mundane one only, that as there is a an astral version of perception that there must be a corresponding version of astral infiltration? I would argue that Assensing exists as a separate astral perception skill only because it is a different sense then the normal mundane ones, and thus, as you have special skills like exotic weapons, you have a special perception skill for this new sense.

In any case, I am against omniscient astral beings. Granted it is their natural environment and a patrolling spirit should get the modifiers for actively searching and environmental modifiers to assist, but to automatically succeed simply because the opponent is a mundane or a glowy astral awakened is poor game play. The GM is effectively deciding the PC cannot win.

Just because the astral sense primary metaphor is Normal Vision, this does not mean all attendant associated experience of that metaphor also applies for that new different astral sense. Certainly auras are "glowy", and non living things are less "glowy", but what is the relative difference and scale? how does it drop off? What is the basic background contrast? You experiential model of how normal sight works will not apply to how assensing works. Assensing is different, it's Magic, our use of the normal vision metaphor is only a vague attempt to model something that only our imaginations can supply (For those of us without astral senses currently)

Describing the astral world is like describing color to a blind person.

A blind person can understand that if the got inside a cardboard box that they could be hidden from whomever is looking for them.. (Though they might be able to tell if it was a transparent box, which is a whole different matter. It's still a valid attempt to hide.)

[Muspellsheimr]

Chummers, I need to confirm the following I ruled during my last game: the players had to find a guy that was kidnapped by other runners. They managed to find the site, so the mage decided to peek around, astral projection style.

The site had a Watcher patrolling the astral. The mage player said he was going in carefully to make sure that he won't attract the attention of any patrol. I made him roll an Infiltration test (from previous threads, treating the astral like the physical seems the best way to deal).

The mage rolled 3 hits, which guaranteed an automatic success against the Watcher (Force 1 and Assenssing 1, max 2 hits possible). The mage was able to move around, make the proper Assenssing test to find the target and kidnapping runners (feelings of stress and fear was palpable in the astral), and get out with a snap.

Could you confirm if this was done correctly or not ?? (note: GM lesson learned - next time, use a spirit, not a watcher, for astral patrolling).

Thanks in advance

This is correct, with a [possible] correction. While astrally projecting, you do not use Agility, you use Logic.

By RAW, the ruling was correct and yes, by RAW watchers are utterly useless. They can't watch over anything, they have the search power but too low a DP to ever find anything and as they don't have the telepathic link to the summoner and die in one hit they don't even work as stationary alarm sirens.

RAW, watchers are actually quite useful for a number of things (outside of Search, if you use the RAW optional limiter on Extended Tests). Such things include guarding locations against casual trespassers, messengers, and erasing astral signatures.

I don't know, I think that was good use of Infiltration by the player and a good ruling by the GM to allow it. I've had a couple mages astrally scout in my games a ton of times and none of them ever thought to use infiltration to hide from other spirits.

The watcher is still useful though, maybe not for detecting astral infiltration, but once those bodies get in the area, they aren't going to be hiding from it in the physical world. So, while a F1 watcher may not be able to detect a decent mage astrally scouting, they are still going to be able to alert the big spirits/mages once someone physically gets close.

I personally have used Astral Infiltration before, in combination with the Concealment power.

Further, it does not matter if the infiltrator is physical or astral, any perceiver must first beat their Infiltration test to locate them. Period.

Watchers are especially weak against magical threats, but my understanding is that their primary use is against the non-magical kind. Any magician who's been awakened for more than a month can dupe a watcher – they are the most basic and primitive of magical tools.

If you're expecting a (non-awakened) street gang might rain down on your safehouse in their droves then a watcher will spot it coming and give you enough warning to escape without needing a roll at all.

If you're expecting someone to astrally infiltrate your safehouse then yes, for God's sake don't trust the job to what is not much more than a figment of your imagination!

Similarly for the search power - looking for a distinctive aura that's been out and about a lot recently is right up their alley, but finding something non-living or astrally hidden is likely to be out of their scope. Looking at the search power modifier table it looks woefully incomplete: I could (and would) come up with more possible modifiers both positive and negative.

You run into difficulty when someone in the physical plane is using Infiltration – it's been debated elsewhere on DS as to whether it counts against astral observers. IIRC the consensus said it does, though as GM I would want the players to specify they were hiding from astral observers as well and would probably penalise their physical inconspicuity (that should so be a word) as something of a trade-off.

Another option to make watchers useful in a watching capacity is to have lots of them. Under the rules for perception* each additional perceiver adds one die to the highest rating. So five watchers would roll six dice – not amazing but proficient and may get boosted by other modifiers. Problems with this are the Charisma limit (but then it should be high for a summoning character anyway) and drain, so best to repeatedly summon short life-span watchers (e.g. it's easier to resist 2 x 1DV than 1 x 2DV).

Ultimately magicians are rare enough that even they can neglect to defend against awakened threats if they don't have reason to expect any, so often a watcher will be considered a cheap and easy way to get something done. If the job is hard, crucial or in the face of awakened adversity then don't be such a skinflint and summon a proper spirit.

* RAW doesn't explicitly say that Assensing is the astral equivalent of the Perception skill, but if it isn't then watchers roll 0 dice to notice something by having to default, which cannot have been intended.

Basically.

*RAW does do so - essentially. You use Assensing in place of Perception when making Astral Perception checks. It otherwise works as normal Perception.

However I will like to ask you all a question: Where in SR rulebook does it say that you can hide in plain sight using the infiltration skill? How can you hide without something to conceal you or hide you? Even a watcher spirit may bark when a certain door is open or anything astral moves through the south wall. Infiltration could work IMO but you might not always be able to use it.

It does so by lacking a requirement for cover or concealment. The game lacks facing, instead using an abstract rules system. How do you handle sneaking up behind someone in such a system? With Infiltration vs. Perception. Also note Infiltration is not simply hiding, but also simply not being noticed. It is remarkably easy to see something, & not realize it is actually there.

But when the mage's team comes on the scene, even knowing there is a watcher around, infiltration alone, by the mundanes, is still rather easy for he watcher to find.

No, it's not. The astral observer will not be subject to physical modifiers such as Ruthenium Polymer, but must still make a successful [Astral] Perception test vs. Infiltration to locate them. I suggest looking at Street Magic for astral "visual" modifiers, which are used in place of appropriate physical modifiers, and in addition to the common Perception modifiers.

Astral Perception is a Perception check, using Assensing in place of Perception, but subject to all the same rules & appropriate modifiers.