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> I see you've spent time in Japan, to bow or not?
Snow_Fox
post Feb 14 2010, 12:11 AM
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Many Asian cultures bow. It is a part of the daily interaction but they acept it is particular to them. When President Obama tried, and failed, to bow to the emperor of Japan it caused outrage in the US but the Japanese media seemed to pass on it saying basically "Well it was nice of him to try" BUT when the CEO of Toyota held a conference to apologise for his car quality his perfunctory bow of only the head was eviserated. One journal saying it was the sort of bow given by two neighbors who find they're taking out the garbage at the same time.

Personally I have a dear friend who is the daughter of Japanese parents and I am amused when we shop at an Asian market to see her bow to the staff, not big but when the fish guy hands her, her selection, he gets a little bob. Same at the check out lane. You'd never see that from her at a 'white' market.

But it stresses how even outside of Japan the bow is still 'taught.' So in the Japanese corps outside of Japan would there be bows? Would they expect North American or European employes to adopt the same cutlure? I was imagining the Seattle Aracology, before it went to hell, kind of like that. Japanese officials and osme shops and many Oxidental employees. Would the bnow be seen as required from Oriental ewmployees? Required of Oxidentals? You work in our culture now. would it be expected an oxidental couldn't get it right but it would be nice to try (like president Obama) or would it be seen a sucking up?

Would an Oriental employee bowing to an Oxidental boss- "I have just transfered from the Osaka office to St Louis" freak the boss out?

Would bowing spread through much of corp culture? "Oh I like that style, I expect you to do it too" at the risk of seeming to push a Teutonic stereotype this could be big at SK.

Lastly if it doesn't spread would it be a tell for a recenlty extracted employee? "Nasty twitch you got there Miller." "Sorry, spent 12 years at Shiawase main HQ"
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McCummhail
post Feb 14 2010, 01:03 AM
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I could imagine the corps having a mandatory training program on how to bow,
bowing might also be inserted into skillsofts to reinforce the behavior.
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Tanegar
post Feb 14 2010, 01:05 AM
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As you pointed out, most Asians are good about recognizing that bowing is a custom peculiar to that part of the world. "Occidental" employees would probably bow to a senior manager or director who came over from the home office for a performance review or suchlike, but would almost certainly dispense with bows among themselves. Similarly, a Japanese employee transferring to an office in the West would probably bow reflexively for the first couple of weeks, simply because that's what he's conditioned to do, but I suspect that behavior would fade over time. Inversely, a Western employee going to a mostly (or entirely) Japanese office would almost have to learn to bow.
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Daylen
post Feb 14 2010, 01:17 AM
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bowing is done in the west, just not in the same way or the same meaning as asian culture. performers bow at the end of a play, and of course there is the old european custom of bowing and scraping in court.
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AngelisStorm
post Feb 14 2010, 01:18 AM
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I think they would bow. "Westerners" among themselves might not bow, as a little way to buck the system (a nod to the "good old boy" system), but I think in the Japan-corps bowing would be considered standard across the world. The New Yen is a standard currency, Japanese is a common language, and Japan is a military power. People wear Asian styled "Power Suits" to the board room. So I think it would be pretty common for a corporation, which effectively is its own country, but is very proud it it's hereditary roots, would implement policies across the board so that the employees, regardless of cultural background, can "fit in." (Remember how Japanese business culture worked a few years ago, and even today is pretty prevelant. I think it's one of the main RL sources for how the Corps in Shadowrun operate: "the Corp is Mother, it is Father, it is Brother & Sister. You will live and die for the Family.")
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Stry
post Feb 14 2010, 01:19 AM
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If bowing is any thing like hand shaking, how many crappy hand shakes or hand shake faux pas have you seen. Like everything it is learned etiquette.

I doubt it would spread though out all the corps, I would say bowing is very common in the Japanese corps, and parts of Evo. There is no reason to think bowing is common in any of the other corps except in the Japan offices.

By the way "Orientals" are rugs, Asians are people.

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Daylen
post Feb 14 2010, 01:27 AM
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Orient really just refers to the east so an oriental would be something from the east or Oriental someone from the east. I like Oriental more than Asian anyway, especially when I'm told its not politically correct.
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AngelisStorm
post Feb 14 2010, 01:30 AM
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QUOTE (Stry @ Feb 13 2010, 08:19 PM) *
By the way "Orientals" are rugs, Asians are people.

PCness.

QUOTE (Dictionary.com)
o⋅ri⋅en⋅tal  /ˌɔriˈɛntl, ˌoʊr‑/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [awr-ee-en-tl, ohr‑] Show IPA
–adjective
1. (usually initial capital letter) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the Orient, or East; Eastern.
2. of the orient or east; eastern.
3. (initial capital letter) Zoogeography. belonging to a geographical division comprising southern Asia and the Malay Archipelago as far as and including the Philippines, Borneo, and Java.

–noun
5. (usually initial capital letter) a native or inhabitant of the Orient.


Not trying to make a fuss, but it's alot like Indian. It offends some people, alot of people don't care.
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Daylen
post Feb 14 2010, 01:32 AM
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I sure could use some oriental food...this is making me hungry.
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PBI
post Feb 14 2010, 01:51 AM
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I would just add that the requirement to know the ins and outs of when and how to bow in a Japan-corp would most likely increase the farther one moved up the food chain, regardless if one was based in a western or eastern corp division.
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BRodda
post Feb 14 2010, 03:17 AM
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QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Feb 13 2010, 07:11 PM) *
Many Asian cultures bow. It is a part of the daily interaction but they acept it is particular to them. When President Obama tried, and failed, to bow to the emperor of Japan it caused outrage in the US but the Japanese media seemed to pass on it saying basically "Well it was nice of him to try" BUT when the CEO of Toyota held a conference to apologise for his car quality his perfunctory bow of only the head was eviserated. One journal saying it was the sort of bow given by two neighbors who find they're taking out the garbage at the same time.


I was an employee of Fujitsu (if SR was real life then they would be a Japanese Megacorp) in North America, but I still had to take classes in etiquette in case any of the upper level people came to visit.

And just in case your wondering, you exchange business cards just before the bow. Other wise you have no idea of your relative positions and will not know the depth and duration of your bow.
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kzt
post Feb 14 2010, 03:37 AM
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QUOTE (BRodda @ Feb 13 2010, 08:17 PM) *
And just in case your wondering, you exchange business cards just before the bow. Other wise you have no idea of your relative positions and will not know the depth and duration of your bow.

IIRC, there is also a non-trivial etiquette about how you exchange business cards.

SR is the "The Japanese are going to buy up America!" craziness from 80s Time magazine writ large and accurate. Of course, if you are an employee of a Japancorp you are expected to behave like a Japanese employee. They will forgive the fact that a gaijin doesn't speak a civilized language, but not rudeness.
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Snow_Fox
post Feb 14 2010, 03:40 AM
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That was the sort of hting I was wondering about.

Yeah on his travel show in Osaka Anthony Bourdain went into the whole ritual of exchanging cards with people you are unsure of.

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BRodda
post Feb 14 2010, 04:19 AM
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QUOTE (kzt @ Feb 13 2010, 10:37 PM) *
IIRC, there is also a non-trivial etiquette about how you exchange business cards.


We were taught to offer with the left and take with the right. You do both with the same time and hold the card with both hands when you bow. You scan the job title quickly before the bow and when in doubt bow deeper then the person you just traded with, especially if they are from the main office.
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MintyFresh
post Feb 14 2010, 09:03 AM
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QUOTE (Stry @ Feb 13 2010, 05:19 PM) *
By the way "Orientals" are rugs, Asians are people.
This particular area of PCness really annoys a Japanese-American friend of mine. He, quite correctly, describes its inaccuracy by pointing out that russians, indians and many others are technically "asian" but for some reason are excluded from this moniker in American english.

Back on topic, would Japanese etiquette specialization be enough to get bonus dice in a Japancorp?
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Hagga
post Feb 14 2010, 11:40 AM
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It tends to happen more among those they think will bow back. I live in a university town, and the students bow amongst the large asian community (or do the Wai) but otherwise don't bother.
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Ascalaphus
post Feb 14 2010, 12:30 PM
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QUOTE (MintyFresh @ Feb 14 2010, 10:03 AM) *
Back on topic, would Japanese etiquette specialization be enough to get bonus dice in a Japancorp?


I'd say so. Just like European would work in S-K.


As for bowing in S-K.. I don't think so. Not when they're meeting among themselves, at any rate. Lofwyr's sponsorship of the NEEC points to a more European focus.

When they meet with Japanacorps officials, I expect there to be some mutual bowing. Depending on whether relations are good, those bows might be perfectly correct, or "accidentally" a little rude. A Westerner bowing precisely correctly would make a good impression, while a well-intentioned attempt would suffice for etiquette purposes.


The point with etiquette, above the precise local forms, is how much respect you're conveying towards someone else. Good communicators can convey that respect even if their execution of gestures isn't perfect.
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McCummhail
post Feb 16 2010, 12:37 AM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Feb 14 2010, 07:30 AM) *
When they meet with Japanacorps officials, I expect there to be some mutual bowing. Depending on whether relations are good, those bows might be perfectly correct, or "accidentally" a little rude. A Westerner bowing precisely correctly would make a good impression, while a well-intentioned attempt would suffice for etiquette purposes.

The deepness and manner with which a bow is delivered is full of context and meaning.
It is often known that too little of a bow can often be seen as a sign of disrespect,
but bowing too much and being too 'gracious' can also be disrespectful,
especially when peers are there to set context.

I can imagine SK execs who know their etiquette being infuriatingly disrespectful
and playing it off as being ignorant.

If the real world is to be an example, my Japanese coworkers act surprised
every time someone speaks 'Japanese' to them or bows, whether they are surprised or not.

However, one of the guys higher up the food chain that has been overseas for many years
shows almost no Japanese mannerisms (and neither does anyone around him).

I include very 80's power corp Japanese nuances in my game because it is the foil to the punk.
A pink mohawk and an extendable middle finger are an interesting counterpoint to A carbon-copy flock of bowing wageslaves.
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Draco18s
post Feb 16 2010, 12:45 AM
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Semi-related to the topic at hand, but I didn't grow up in any kind of Asian culture,* but I have an intense desire to bow to people rather than shake hands or whatnot. Seems more appropriate.

*Except possibly the four or so years I did Karate twice a week.
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AngelisStorm
post Feb 16 2010, 12:50 AM
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I'm a fan of the "head nod." Not only is it a useful element of "Man Speak"* (such as the universality of grunts, and the strange array of handshakes), but if you hang around strong asian culture enough, you can incorporate "bowing" elements into it. Of course I would never try it for formal situations, but for everday "grocery store" ettiquite, it's quiet useful.



*(And "Man Ettiquete": such as the universality of "Rocks, Paper, Scissor" as a dispute arbitrator.)
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Daddy's Litt...
post Feb 18 2010, 10:00 PM
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I like the idea that it is the counter to the punk image.

I am American. My parents are Japanese. I was taught to bow and plan to teach this to my children, under the right circumstances. I would not bow to a peer regardless of race but do it as a show of respect to older Asians to show my respect for them and the culture they represent.

At work co-workers have said they always know when I am on the phone with an Asian customer because i bow in my seat. I do not even know i am doing that!


The supermarket SF mentioned is staffed by mainly Asians who barely speak English so it is a way to bridge the language gap and let them know they are not surrounded by 'barbarians.' Sorry gaijan readers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

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Draco18s
post Feb 18 2010, 10:14 PM
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My desire to bow occurs most strongly when I wish to thank someone for something, as they've provided some kind of help for which I am grateful.
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Adarael
post Feb 18 2010, 10:26 PM
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Given that after many many years of college and having daily interaction with Japanese professors, I bow when I'm in a Japanese store/restaurant/environment, I would hell yeah would corporate employees bow, providing they were Japanese corps. I'm about as white and californian as you can get, but with reinforcement, you just do it.

This was especially true when I worked for Nintendo.
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AngelisStorm
post Feb 18 2010, 10:30 PM
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QUOTE (Adarael @ Feb 18 2010, 05:26 PM) *
This was especially true when I worked for Nintendo.


Ha! That's awsome. Quick question: Japan Nintendo or Nintendo of America (I think that was the corporate name here). Just curious.
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Adarael
post Feb 18 2010, 11:22 PM
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Nintendo of America, here in Seattle. Well, Redmond, but close enough. The three branches are NOA, NCL (Nintendo Corporation Limited, which is the Japanese parent branch) and NST (Nintendo Software Techologies, which does first party game development in the US.)

Edit: I see you live in Redmond, so obviously you know of NOA's placement. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Assuming your location is actually true.
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