Gathering interest in Matrix-centic game Options

[Troll Bouncer]

With Mickle and Darque posting I'll be closing recruiting (yes, you two made it in under the wire).

@BlackHat: Your idea is playable in my opinion, so carry on with the concept.

@Everyone: I've seen alot of good concepts from you, and with that in mind I think we'll have a very good game.

[LurkerOutThere]

So just to confirm did i make the threshold?

[Troll Bouncer]

Yes, everyone who posted before my last post did. Hopefully even though its more than my original number wanted it'll still run smooth.

[ravensoracle]

Ok guys, I'll propose my character which I've been PM'ing with {B}Troll Bouncer[/b] about.

Lurker's an AI that excels at getting into systems unseen. He's going to be the infiltration specialist for the team. He'll sneak in and create the accounts needed to let others in. He's got a fascination for social networking sites and uses information from them to track people through their everyday lives. He's definitely no face or anything. Kinda comes off as a little odd. His icon is a Humanoid shaped cloud of smoke. He's tends to shy away from combat and seems a little squeamish about it. He prefers to sneak in and sneak out.

[crizh]

That might work well with the way I'm considering re-framing Mataglap.

I'm thinking of having him as the project leader and main code-tester for an OSS programming team working on a high Rating Stealth program. I was going to put some TM's in as contacts, I figured studying how their high rating CF's functioned would be ideal research for that sort of project.

A Stealth focused AI would also be an excellent source to learn new tricks from.

[Mickle5125]

are we using the free contacts rule (2*cha free points for contacts)?

[ravensoracle]

Well two things about Lurker. He's got the Rootkit Quality so that should help him quite a bit of help to sneak around. And Troll Boucer was nice enough to let me buy the Emulate Quality. But I am going to limit it to threading the inherent programs up or threading ones I need. I think it would be a little overpowered to thread regular programs I'm running.

[crizh]

The character I'm adapting for this game has a lifestyle with a multi-node cluster for a CHN that has the resident AI disadvantage. It might be interesting if this were to be Lurker's home node.

The original design was for 5 Nexuses four of which were slaved to the fifth but I could easily add more hardware, it's pretty cheap, and make the central node a cluster.

[SleepIncarnate]

Where is that disadvantage listed? I just did a quick check of both Unwired and Runner's Companion and didn't see it in either? Just curious what it does, I'm pretty sure I've seen it but not seen it in play before.

[ravensoracle]

What's the stats?

Here is what I am using right now.

Transys Avalon (Response 4/Signal 4) -5,000¥ (17,650Y Total)
-Response Upgrade to 5 -4000Y (Avail 12)
-Signal Upgrgrade to 5 -1000Y (Avail 12)
-Firewall 6 -3000Y
-System 6 -3000Y
W/Satelite Link -500Y (Avail 4)
W/Mods
-Armor Casing R10 -500Y (Avail (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
-Hardening R6 -150Y (Avail 4)
-Optimization (Exploit) -500Y (Avail 6)

(AI Rating Increase: Response-8, Signal-7, Firewall- 9, System- 9)

It's costing me 10K:nuyen: for a lifestyle so I was just getting ready to ask Troll Bouncer if we were going to be making that kinda money in the game. With Pirated Programs I am needing to clear 19,000Y a month. If we aren't going to make that much I need to rethink my gear and lifestyle.

[SleepIncarnate]

It's called spoofing your lifestyle.

[LurkerOutThere]

Hmmmm yea, i'm thinking a normal hacker isn't going to have a role on this team with super AI's running around but we'll see how it goes.

[BlackHat]

It's called spoofing your lifestyle.

Spoofing a 10K lifestyle takes quite a few hits, and the interval on the test is in weeks, right? You'd spend almost all of your time just trying to dodge paying the bills, I think.

Also, the Resident AI disadvantage, is a lifestyle disadvantage in RC. Personally, I don't think it would be much fo a "disadvantage" if the AI in question is a PC and isn't particularly malicious.

[LurkerOutThere]

I'm of two minds and I will need to crunch numbers when i get home and see what I can come up with my character then. If it's an entirely matrix based game then there's really no limitation on the AI's and the meat folks are going to be near pointless.

[Darquewing]

Hmmmm yea, i'm thinking a normal hacker isn't going to have a role on this team with super AI's running around but we'll see how it goes.

I think it depends on what we go up against. In this game, I have a feeling we could see more high-security, multi-node systems than in a usual game. I guess I'm thinking Matrix systems where a team of hackers is required to accomplish goals.

Also, I have worked on Geist more and have come up with some background and Numbers that seem to fit. Should I just post all of that here, or PM TrollBouncer with it? Ot is there somewhere else I should post it/send it?

[SleepIncarnate]

Spoofing is a once a day test, not once a week. And I don't think an AI can use a commlink, unless they're making it their home node, or are rigged into a cyborg body like the ones appearing in Arsenal as drones. And if they do, they only have the Response and Signal of the node they're currently in, not necessarily their home node. So the only way Lurker would be Response 8/Signal 7 is if the node he's in is that high. Likewise, his System and Firewall can't be bought up with neuyen, AIs can't be "cybered" out like that, so his System and Response will still be limited to his starting limits for now. Sure, an AI can load other programs into its code, like agents, but running them is just like any other hacker running a program, they take up processing capacity. Simply put, if Lurker is this kind of super AI, then we're seeing proof positive of LurkerOutThere's sig message. The fact that we've been told TMs are a complete not allowed character type, but having an AI allowed to thread (one of the bigger things that sets TMs apart from other hackers) and have these kinds of stats is making me wonder what the heck is going on here.

[BlackHat]

As I understood it, AI's can upgrade their home node, so long as it falls at or below the device ratings that thier lifestyle allows. With a high lifestyle (10K) an AI could have all 6's in its matrix attributes, all of which would be raised by another 3 because of the AI inhabiting the node. Technically, the AI gets that device-rating-6 node for free (after paying for a high lifestyle), and it doesn't need to be paid for twice by also purchasing the hardware... but I wouldn't stop a PC who wanted to pay twice to have more specific detail than "I have rating 6 in all matrix attributes".

That said, AIs are awesome in the matrix, particularly at not being seen. For the most part, unless our runs take us to his home node (which no AI would want), his matrix attributes, there, are unlikely to matter. Threading stealth, on top of a starting stealth of 6-7, on top of rootkits -6 stealth, does make the AI pretty much undetectable, though. And no meat-body hacker can beat an AI with rootkit, at that.

[SleepIncarnate]

Exactly my point, his home node can be amazing and all, but there's no way the AI himself can have those kinds of attributes as his own, especially not at creation. And if they are, something went wrong between the player and GM, either neither catching the massive error, or something worse (favoritism, bribery, etc). A good example, an AI starting with 5 in all attributes with a home node being middle lifestyle (a more believable start than 6 in all attributes, considering the high cost of making an AI), would have a home node with 8 in all attributes, but the AI itself would still just be 5 each in System and Firewall, with Response and Signal of the node that it's in at that exact moment.

[BlackHat]

You're right about that, but I don't think there is anything forcing an AI to leave one node and enter another. I get that you're saying that there should be such a rule to make it fair, but I don't think that is how the rules work, by default. The high point cost of being an AI, and the limited options when doing non-matrix stuff (usually 90+% of the game) usually balance that out... but in this case, having 90+% of the action online, the point cost for AI's is a steal. If Troll Bouncer had not cut off AI submissions after the first, I would not have been surprised if everyone had submitted AI concepts.

At least, as I understand the rules, they can access other nodes from their home node just like a human hacker can access remote nodes from his commlink's node and use the stats of his own commlink, and not the crappy rating 1 comm he's hacking. Also, by opening up connection in multiple nodes (which matrix users can do), you avoid being trapped or dying if one of those nodes is shut down. In my experience, I have never actually seen an AI leave its home node (I've only been in a handful of games with AIs, and I played on in one case). The only reason to leave your home node would be to avoid leading a data trail back to your home (where you can be killed)- but by leaving you risk being killable AND being stranded in some random node... plus you have to deal with your ratings fluctuating, and with the majority of consumer-grade nodes being unable to host your bulk (since AIs would count as 1-7 programs running on a given system, depending on how many programs the AI loaded up in addition to its free ones). I could be wrong about how AIs are supposed to interact with the matrix, but I'm pretty sure if it was different than how every other matrix user does it, it would have been spelled out somewhere.

[Troll Bouncer]

Firstly guys...you arent really a team, so divving up team roles isnt essential. I'd also like to point out that while the AI's are uber in the 'trix, not everything falls within the matrix (even though it is matrix-centric, there are meat world things to do in the hacker subculture).

This game really is about exploring/doing all the Hacker things that are generally swept aside in other games as peripheral or behind the scene things. There will be things for you to collaborate on, including 'righteous hacks', but and this is important, go about as if are foremost individualists (which Hackers truly are). Hackers also work together at times, and we'll create a few of those times together, but run with being a hacker and not necessarily a team hacker.

and to answer what the heck is going on here, the reason I disallowed TM's wasnt purely on Threading alone. Its the everything else about them, reasonance...dissonance...echoes..sprites, etc. that changes the focus of the game I'm interested in running. Threading I'm fine with since I've played deckers who could 'code on the fly'.

[SleepIncarnate]

You're right about that, but I don't think there is anything forcing an AI to leave one node and enter another. I get that you're saying that there should be such a rule to make it fair, but I don't think that is how the rules work, by default. The high point cost of being an AI, and the limited options when doing non-matrix stuff (usually 90+% of the game) usually balance that out... but in this case, having 90+% of the action online, the point cost for AI's is a steal. If Troll Bouncer had not cut off AI submissions after the first, I would not have been surprised if everyone had submitted AI concepts.

At least, as I understand the rules, they can access other nodes from their home node just like a human hacker can access remote nodes from his commlink's node and use the stats of his own commlink, and not the crappy rating 1 comm he's hacking. Also, by opening up connection in multiple nodes (which matrix users can do), you avoid being trapped or dying if one of those nodes is shut down. In my experience, I have never actually seen an AI leave its home node (I've only been in a handful of games with AIs, and I played on in one case). The only reason to leave your home node would be to avoid leading a data trail back to your home (where you can be killed)- but by leaving you risk being killable AND being stranded in some random node... plus you have to deal with your ratings fluctuating, and with the majority of consumer-grade nodes being unable to host your bulk (since AIs would count as 1-7 programs running on a given system, depending on how many programs the AI loaded up in addition to its free ones). I could be wrong about how AIs are supposed to interact with the matrix, but I'm pretty sure if it was different than how every other matrix user does it, it would have been spelled out somewhere.

Even if he's staying in his home node, his System and Firewall won't be boosted to 9, they'll just be the averages of two mental attributes each. So the question then is, is he showing us his home node, or what he says his AI's attributes are?

[BlackHat]

Even if he's staying in his home node, his System and Firewall won't be boosted to 9, they'll just be the averages of two mental attributes each. So the question then is, is he showing us his home node, or what he says his AI's attributes are?

I'm not sure I follow. IIRC, if an AI is in its home node, System and Firewall ARE boosted. Those attributes only affect other matrix users if you attempt to hack into that home node, however - so he doesn't "show" anything, but if someone used Analyze and asked "What rating firewall is that awesome looking icon running?" the answer would be 8-9 or whatever.

[SleepIncarnate]

No they're not. The AI boosts the ratings of their home node with their own attributes, but the home node does not boost their own attributes (except for Signal and Response which would be pretty high if the AI has any kind of decent home node). If you're in the node attacking the AI, the AI would use its own Firewall for defense, not the Firewall of the node. If you're trying to hack the node, you use the Firewall of the node, not the AI. Likewise, while the AI is in its home node, the home node is tasked by that 1-7 programs as you said, plus whatever programs the home node may be running such as IC and the like, whereas the AI will only be tasked by the programs it is running itself (though because its Response is the same as the node, this would affect if it begins being overtasked).

[BlackHat]

Still not sure I follow. You may be right. I'm looking at it as though the AI's home node could be, for all intents and purposes, a rating 6 commlink. When you meet a hacker online, and mess with him, you're going up against the firewall and system of the device he is using (his commlink). AFAIK, the same thing goes if you meet an AI online, if that AI hasn't actually moved onto the node you are both in. If he has just opened a connection to that node, he would have an icon, but if you attack him, he uses his device's stats to defend himself - same as a hacker. If you got into his system, and attacked him there (or attacked him in any other system where he moved his code into), he would use his own (unmodified) Firewall and System ratings, as you said. I just don't think that AIs are ever required to do that, so I suspect that smart ones never would.

If that is not the case, then I don't know why an AI would bother buying up a high rating home node in the first place - particularly in a standard game, where none of the action is going to take place there.

Again, I might be wrong... but it is probably that the rules were not clear on it, because 99% of the matrix rules were written before AIs were a PC option. Either way, it doesn't really affect me, so I'm not worried about it - feel free to continue going on about the AI rules, but that's my two-cents on the matter.

[crizh]

I usually use cheap hardware. For example, 10 Nexuses with Response 3 and processor limit 15 cost 22500 all in. Load those up with a cracked System and Firewall 6 with a persona limit of 10 and cluster them and you end up with a system that has stats of 3/-/6/6 which can run 75 programs and support 10 logged in users. You can add whatever you like in the way of Sat-coms or wireless as an add-on module for sweeties.

It has the drawback of low Response but that isn't the most useful Matrix attribute.

The stats of the home node aren't really all that relevant to an AI. The only one it really inherits is Response, which doesn't see a lot of use. It's the other users of the node and it's defences that really benefit.

edit

Having looked these rules over I don't see why you couldn't have a fortified home node with a low Response to keep the costs down and move into a slaved, tricked out high Response node for actual hacks. The AI doesn't gain any major benefit from the System or Firewall of the node it is currently in as it uses it's own System/Firewall for any relevant tests.