Counterspelling, Two basic questions. Options

[jgalak]

Question 1: If a mage is astrally projecting, can he assign his counterspelling dice to a person (not awakened) in the physical world? We've gone over the fact that astrally projecting mages can't cast spells at the non-awakened, but what about counterspelling?

Question 2: Do counterspelling dice apply to defenses against paracritters' special abilities? For example, the Fear power seems to work just like a spell, resisted by Willpower, so would it become will+counterspelling?

Thanks.

[Karoline]

I'm reasonably sure there isn't an exact ruling on that in the book (Or at least not an obvious one) so expect some rules arguments as people pull up a half dozen different bits of rules from here and there. What I think I've seen in the past though is that just like spells can't cross the astral/physical barrier, neither can counterspelling. So the mage can only counterspell things that cast on the plane on which she is on.

Not so sure about the second one. My gut says yes, but I'm really unsure.

[Umidori]

Other rules treat Powers as being very separate from Spells. In particular, the Adept Power of Spell Resistance acts like free Counterspelling dice, but it specifically states the only Critter Power it works on is Innate Spell.

~Umidori

[Muspellsheimr]

No.

No.

[pbangarth]

Counterspelling doesn't cross the astral/physical boundary. Counterspelling only works against spells, not any other type of power.

[Dragnar]

Muspellsheimr and pbangarth are correct (ie: no on both counts).
Keep in mind, though, that you never need to "assign dice to counterspelling" at all, you just need to tell which targets you're going to protect. You're always getting all your dice, there are no depleting pools anymore.

[Caadium]

I would tend to agree that counterspelling does not affect powers, and can not cross the astral/physical boundary. However, this thread did bring up some related questions.

Is it the caster of the spell, or the target of the spell, that must be on the same plane in order for counterspelling to work? This comes into play when you've got dual-natured beings (or even astrally perceiving people on the physical plane). At what point is the spell settled into what plane?

For example, PC1 is Astrally projecting. He see's a Vampire throw a spell at mundane PC2. Can PC1 now counterspell because it was cast by a dual natured being, or since PC2 is mundane can PC1 do nothing?

What if PC2 was the vampire and a non-astrally percieving NPC1 cast the spell?

I know there are no hard rules written to clarify, but I'm curious as to people's interpretation.

[Dragnar]

You aren't counterspelling eeither the caster or the target, but the spell, so it depends on the spell's plane of existence.
If a vampire casts a spell at a mundane target, the spell is on the physical plane and thus has to be counterspelled on the physical plane (an astrally projecting mage is free to just geek the vampire to stop spells, though).
If a mundane casts a spell at a vampire, the spell is still on the physical plane and still has to be counterspelled on the physical plane.

[Karoline]

If a mundane casts a spell at a vampire...

Then someone is about to get a big chunk of cash from whats-his-name's will.

Also, I didn't think vampires were dual natured.

Otherwise I agree. It doesn't matter what plane the caster is on, only the spell (Which is always going to be on the same plane as the target)

[pbangarth]

You aren't counterspelling eeither the caster or the target, but the spell, so it depends on the spell's plane of existence.

Well, now, hang on. SR4A, page 185 tells us that the act of Counterspelling is associated with the target, who must remain in the Counterspeller's line of sight to remain protected. Since the attacking spell must be on the same plane as the target, the net effect is that the Counterspelling must be on the same plane as the spell.

[Dahrken]

This opens an interesting question : can a dual-natured (or astrally perceiving) counterspeller protect astral and mundane targets at the same time ?

[Caadium]

This opens an interesting question : can a dual-natured (or astrally perceiving) counterspeller protect astral and mundane targets at the same time ?

My initial read would be yes, they would have line of sight on targets on both planes. Of course, if they were Astrally Perceiving and the target was on the physical world there would be the normal modifiers.

[Dakka Dakka]

Of course, if they were Astrally Perceiving and the target was on the physical world there would be the normal modifiers.

What normal modifiers? Are you talking about (physical) visibility? I don't think they apply. You either see your target (and it gets the bonus dice) or you don't. The -2 for astrally perceiving characters only applies to mundane actions. Counterspelling is hardly mundane.

[Axl]

How about if a dual-perceiving magician casts a spell at a dual-natured target? Can an astral form counter the spell?

[Dakka Dakka]

That would depend on whether the caster uses the astral or the physical form of the dual-natured being.

[Muspellsheimr]

If the spell was cast on the Astral plane, Counterspelling by an astral entity works. If the spell was cast on the Physical plane, Counterspelling by a physical entity works. Dual natured creatures are considered both astral and physical.

A dual natured creature chooses which plane the spell is cast on at time of casting (note: the target must also be active on the same plane, and Physical spells can only be cast on the physical plane). A physical or astral creature does not choose - the spell is cast on the same plane they are active on.


Keep in mind that an astral creature can, in fact, declare Counterspelling for a physical creature - it just does absolutely nothing. There are no restrictions on declaring counterspelling on both the astral and physical planes.

[Axl]

Okay, that makes sense.

Although the dual-perceiving magician's player might become suspicious when the GM asks him to clarify if the spell was astral or physical plane. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[jimbo]

Is Counterspelling affected by sustaining modifiers?

I'm thinking no unless it is the magician himself sustaining spells and Counterspelling himself or having Counterspell on him...and that's assuming sustaining penalties affect defense pools.


Also...it was asked but not addressed in another thread...what if multiple mages declare Counterspelling...do the dice add? Only the highest? Either way it's still not a bad idea if all mages have a free action available so that Counterspell is available if mages get dropped...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Is Counterspelling affected by sustaining modifiers?

I'm thinking no unless it is the magician himself sustaining spells and Counterspelling himself or having Counterspell on him...and that's assuming sustaining penalties affect defense pools.


Also...it was asked but not addressed in another thread...what if multiple mages declare Counterspelling...do the dice add? Only the highest? Either way it's still not a bad idea if all mages have a free action available so that Counterspell is available if mages get dropped...

Multiple Mages using Counterspelling counts as a Teamwork Test...

Keep the Faith

[Karoline]

Is Counterspelling affected by sustaining modifiers?

I'm thinking no unless it is the magician himself sustaining spells and Counterspelling himself or having Counterspell on him...and that's assuming sustaining penalties affect defense pools.

I think (but magic isn't my strong suit) that a sustaining penalty would drop the number of counterspelling dice a mage provided to himself and others with his own counterspelling. A mage sustaining a spell and having counterspell thrown over him by another mage would not suffer.

TJ is good. I thought it would just be highest, but yeah, no reason it shouldn't work as a teamwork test.

[jimbo]

I was thinking Counterspell on others wouldn't be affected. Sustaining penalty is applied to the mage's other tests, but when a mage Counterspells on his friend street sam, the street sam is the one making a test?

[Karoline]

I was thinking Counterspell on others wouldn't be affected. Sustaining penalty is applied to the mage's other tests, but when a mage Counterspells on his friend street sam, the street sam is the one making a test?

Well, sure, the sam rolls the dice, but he is getting the counterspelling dice from the mage. If the mage is having trouble concentrating on counterspelling, he isn't going to counterspell as well, and thus shouldn't be able to provide as much counterspelling to his allies. I mean, if you wanted to get really technical, the sam should just roll their willpower and the mage should roll their counterspell and add the hits to the sam's, but it is just more convenient for the sam to roll all the dice.

[toturi]

If the spell was cast on the Astral plane, Counterspelling by an astral entity works. If the spell was cast on the Physical plane, Counterspelling by a physical entity works. Dual natured creatures are considered both astral and physical.

A dual natured creature chooses which plane the spell is cast on at time of casting (note: the target must also be active on the same plane, and Physical spells can only be cast on the physical plane). A physical or astral creature does not choose - the spell is cast on the same plane they are active on.


Keep in mind that an astral creature can, in fact, declare Counterspelling for a physical creature - it just does absolutely nothing. There are no restrictions on declaring counterspelling on both the astral and physical planes.

Where is the rule that says Counterspelling is limited to the plane the counterspeller is on?

[Karoline]

Where is the rule that says Counterspelling is limited to the plane the counterspeller is on?

It's the window analogy. You can't affect anything on a plane you aren't on. Astral can't touch physical and physical can't touch astral. Only makes sense that counterspelling would follow this just like spells do.

That said I don't know that it is ever specifically stated that counterspelling has this limitation, but it is a blanket thing placed on all magic, so I don't know why counterspelling would be an exception.

[Rand]

Well, sure, the sam rolls the dice, but he is getting the counterspelling dice from the mage.

Actually, I believe the mage rolls the counterspelling dice, counts the hits and they add to any hits the protected characters get off their own defensive rolls. A single roll is used to protect everyone that is being protected - not a bad time to use Edge, I think....