Question 1: If a mage is astrally projecting, can he assign his counterspelling dice to a person (not awakened) in the physical world? We've gone over the fact that astrally projecting mages can't cast spells at the non-awakened, but what about counterspelling?

Question 2: Do counterspelling dice apply to defenses against paracritters' special abilities? For example, the Fear power seems to work just like a spell, resisted by Willpower, so would it become will+counterspelling?

Thanks.

I'm reasonably sure there isn't an exact ruling on that in the book (Or at least not an obvious one) so expect some rules arguments as people pull up a half dozen different bits of rules from here and there. What I think I've seen in the past though is that just like spells can't cross the astral/physical barrier, neither can counterspelling. So the mage can only counterspell things that cast on the plane on which she is on.

Not so sure about the second one. My gut says yes, but I'm really unsure.

Other rules treat Powers as being very separate from Spells. In particular, the Adept Power of Spell Resistance acts like free Counterspelling dice, but it specifically states the only Critter Power it works on is Innate Spell.

~Umidori

No.

No.

Counterspelling doesn't cross the astral/physical boundary. Counterspelling only works against spells, not any other type of power.

Muspellsheimr and pbangarth are correct (ie: no on both counts).
Keep in mind, though, that you never need to "assign dice to counterspelling" at all, you just need to tell which targets you're going to protect. You're always getting all your dice, there are no depleting pools anymore.

I would tend to agree that counterspelling does not affect powers, and can not cross the astral/physical boundary. However, this thread did bring up some related questions.

Is it the caster of the spell, or the target of the spell, that must be on the same plane in order for counterspelling to work? This comes into play when you've got dual-natured beings (or even astrally perceiving people on the physical plane). At what point is the spell settled into what plane?

For example, PC1 is Astrally projecting. He see's a Vampire throw a spell at mundane PC2. Can PC1 now counterspell because it was cast by a dual natured being, or since PC2 is mundane can PC1 do nothing?

What if PC2 was the vampire and a non-astrally percieving NPC1 cast the spell?

I know there are no hard rules written to clarify, but I'm curious as to people's interpretation.

You aren't counterspelling eeither the caster or the target, but the spell, so it depends on the spell's plane of existence.
If a vampire casts a spell at a mundane target, the spell is on the physical plane and thus has to be counterspelled on the physical plane (an astrally projecting mage is free to just geek the vampire to stop spells, though).
If a mundane casts a spell at a vampire, the spell is still on the physical plane and still has to be counterspelled on the physical plane.

Then someone is about to get a big chunk of cash from whats-his-name's will.

Also, I didn't think vampires were dual natured.

Otherwise I agree. It doesn't matter what plane the caster is on, only the spell (Which is always going to be on the same plane as the target)

Well, now, hang on. SR4A, page 185 tells us that the act of Counterspelling is associated with the target, who must remain in the Counterspeller's line of sight to remain protected. Since the attacking spell must be on the same plane as the target, the net effect is that the Counterspelling must be on the same plane as the spell.

This opens an interesting question : can a dual-natured (or astrally perceiving) counterspeller protect astral and mundane targets at the same time ?

My initial read would be yes, they would have line of sight on targets on both planes. Of course, if they were Astrally Perceiving and the target was on the physical world there would be the normal modifiers.

What normal modifiers? Are you talking about (physical) visibility? I don't think they apply. You either see your target (and it gets the bonus dice) or you don't. The -2 for astrally perceiving characters only applies to mundane actions. Counterspelling is hardly mundane.

How about if a dual-perceiving magician casts a spell at a dual-natured target? Can an astral form counter the spell?

That would depend on whether the caster uses the astral or the physical form of the dual-natured being.

If the spell was cast on the Astral plane, Counterspelling by an astral entity works. If the spell was cast on the Physical plane, Counterspelling by a physical entity works. Dual natured creatures are considered both astral and physical.

A dual natured creature chooses which plane the spell is cast on at time of casting (note: the target must also be active on the same plane, and Physical spells can only be cast on the physical plane). A physical or astral creature does not choose - the spell is cast on the same plane they are active on.


Keep in mind that an astral creature can, in fact, declare Counterspelling for a physical creature - it just does absolutely nothing. There are no restrictions on declaring counterspelling on both the astral and physical planes.

Okay, that makes sense.

Although the dual-perceiving magician's player might become suspicious when the GM asks him to clarify if the spell was astral or physical plane.

Is Counterspelling affected by sustaining modifiers?

I'm thinking no unless it is the magician himself sustaining spells and Counterspelling himself or having Counterspell on him...and that's assuming sustaining penalties affect defense pools.


Also...it was asked but not addressed in another thread...what if multiple mages declare Counterspelling...do the dice add? Only the highest? Either way it's still not a bad idea if all mages have a free action available so that Counterspell is available if mages get dropped...

Multiple Mages using Counterspelling counts as a Teamwork Test...

Keep the Faith

I think (but magic isn't my strong suit) that a sustaining penalty would drop the number of counterspelling dice a mage provided to himself and others with his own counterspelling. A mage sustaining a spell and having counterspell thrown over him by another mage would not suffer.

TJ is good. I thought it would just be highest, but yeah, no reason it shouldn't work as a teamwork test.

I was thinking Counterspell on others wouldn't be affected. Sustaining penalty is applied to the mage's other tests, but when a mage Counterspells on his friend street sam, the street sam is the one making a test?

Well, sure, the sam rolls the dice, but he is getting the counterspelling dice from the mage. If the mage is having trouble concentrating on counterspelling, he isn't going to counterspell as well, and thus shouldn't be able to provide as much counterspelling to his allies. I mean, if you wanted to get really technical, the sam should just roll their willpower and the mage should roll their counterspell and add the hits to the sam's, but it is just more convenient for the sam to roll all the dice.

Where is the rule that says Counterspelling is limited to the plane the counterspeller is on?

It's the window analogy. You can't affect anything on a plane you aren't on. Astral can't touch physical and physical can't touch astral. Only makes sense that counterspelling would follow this just like spells do.

That said I don't know that it is ever specifically stated that counterspelling has this limitation, but it is a blanket thing placed on all magic, so I don't know why counterspelling would be an exception.

Actually, I believe the mage rolls the counterspelling dice, counts the hits and they add to any hits the protected characters get off their own defensive rolls. A single roll is used to protect everyone that is being protected - not a bad time to use Edge, I think....

Does this work?

Right, a character has to be within the counterspelling mage's line of sight in order to benefit from counterspelling, so a mage that is Astral or Perceiving is unable to maintain line of sight to a person on the physical plane and therefore can't counterspell for them.

double post

But thats not totally true. For instance, you can see auras on when in the astral plane, and even read them. Also, all spells and active foci have a presence on the astral plane, whether they are there or not. Thus it can be argued you can counterspel from the astral to the real world (but not the other way around unless astrally perceiving.

Also I seem to remember from Queen Euphoria that she had 2 spirits on the Astral Plane responsible to protect her with counterspelling or the equivalent of the time (SR 2?)

Aahh. My confusion comesfrom the 20th anniversary edition where the example says that the mage (Anul) rolls counterspelling dice only once and adds the hits to all the characters the are defending. (pg. 185)

As I would prefer to speed up the actions a bit, I think I will go with the single roll, it makes more sense too: the mage is the one doing the counterspelling, not the mundane street-sammie.

The auras are on the astral (Auras and Astral Forms, pg. 191, 20th Anniversary Corebook) so when a mage is using Astral Perception to look at them, they are looking at them on the astral. Looking at a person without using Astral Perception will give you nothing of their aura - the same goes for foci and spells.


That module was 3rd edition, right? Or was it 2nd? Either way, it isn't 4th edition, so it bears no influence on 4th edition rules.

And since Magic does not cross the planar boundry, why would counterspelling do so... Assuming that it does breaks that very simple law...
To counter a spell, you must be on the same plane that it originates from...

Keep the Faith

Show me the rule where it says so. And I think previous edition lays the grounds for the rules in this one. The astral mage is unable to directly affect material beings, but there are no rules saying they can't effect magic.

An astral magician can cast a mana spell against an astrally perceiving magician on the physical plane.

I'll admit that I never considered that an astral mage can not draw a LOS to the physical plane...is this because astral perception is a "psychic sense" and not true sight? If so, how does an astral magician draw LOS to beings on the astral plane? He's no longer "seeing"...

All I see is that Counterspelling requires LOS. If you have LOS, you can Counterspell, which is not a spell but a technique to impede the flow of mana.

I kind of assumed you could counter spell from the astral to the physical because you could in all previous editions. I get where people are coming from with the LOS, astral plane thing and given the what I remember about what spirits can do for the party it lines up I think.

The idea in 4th edition is that when you are on the astral plane, you do astral things, and when you are on the physical plane you do physical things even if they are mental or psychological in nature. ("A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted." Shadowrun 20th Anniversary Edition, pg. 183.) As counterspelling is a magical act (you cannot even get the skill without a Magic rating that is used for spellcasting - even adepts can't get it) it bears to reason that it falls under the same rules that spells do, especially since it falls within the same skill group with spellcasting (and Ritual Spellcasting).

I don't think it says anywhere, "counterspelling can only be used on targets on the same plane" because the general rules of spellcasting in general tell you that.

Some of the discussions we have here are funny.

(on the "What? you can't counterspell across planes!" side)

Yes, you can see and read auras, that is why it is a window analogy, not a brick wall analogy. You can see stuff on the physical plane (auras, astral shadows) while in the astral one, but you cannot touch it. Spells have no more presence on the astral plane than an aura does. Active foci are utterly irrelevant because they are duel natured, and so stand on both sides of the window at the same time. Being duel natured is the only time you could counterspell both astral and physical (plane) spells, because that is the only time you can interact with both planes at the same time.

So yeah, you really can't argue that counterspelling works (interacting with things on a different plane) just because you can see things on a different plane.


Doesn't really matter what did and didn't work in previous editions, this is a new edition. While you are right that 'the rules are based on the older editions' that does not mean that any given rule automatically carries through, just like grounding spells through a focus is no longer an option.

If you are on different planes of existence, there is nothing for your "Counterspell" action to target... to be targetable, the magic must be on the same plane as the counterspell to work... seems pretty simple to me...

It does not have to spell that out in stone as the basic rule for magic is already spelled out in stone... therefore, to effect the magic, you must be on the same plane of existence...

Keep the Faith

I have to agree that the rules seem to point to not being able to counterspell across the astral to the physical.

That said, I don't think it would be totally unbalancing if it was allowed. In fact, I think it would make the astral more fun to play on. Astral over-watch seems to have only two uses to me: spying/surveillance and dropping spirits into the physical like bombs.

Which is why I'd say in 4e there really isn't astral over-watch.

The unbalancing thing I see about cross-plane counterspelling is that it would make it pretty difficult to take out the opponent's counterspelling if it's coming solely from the astral. The mage can't go "shit, this guy has counterspelling out his ass. Yo Tin Man, think you can fill the skinny guy full a' stick n shock for me so I can frag the rest with a fireball?" if the enemies are using astral mages/spirits for counterspelling then they will have counterspelling for the rest of the fight and there's really not anything players can do about it.

Except have their own mage astrally project/percieve and fight the mage on the astral.

Just like if the opponents have a hacker. That hacker will do what he likes till the runner team's hacker goes onto the matrix and deals with him. I don't see how it's any more unbalancing then that.

Well, the party's mage could go astral and try and take out the counterspelling mage. Personally I like the idea of counterspelling crossing planes because it makes the astral plane more useful. It gives mages a reason to invest in astral combat because controlling the astral plane becomes a bit more useful. As things stand, having control of the astral plane is basically useless, because all people have to do to defeat you is not go into the astral to fight you, since control of the astral gives you no benefits on the physical where most people are.

Except that an unopposed astral mage can continue to drop summoned spirits all over you... You still need to have the ability to control the Astral Space... and trhe second you open yourself to astral space, you are vulnerable to the mage/spirits waiting on the other side... remember, they will get an action against you before you can really do anything, as astral perception/projecting takes your action for that pass (at least enough so that you will not be casting a spell or making a melee attack anyways)...

Keep the Faith

That's true, that is the one case in which controlling astral is important. I suppose that and wanting to make a clean getaway. If you have an astral mage watching you, they'll follow you right to your hideout. I suppose the NPCs just need to make more use of awakened. The problem is that the setting claims a less than 1% awakened population, but roughly 50-75% of runner teams tend to be awakened. Edit: not to mention that each of those characters generally knows an entire group of awakened, and a talismonger, and maybe another awakened or two.

The demographics of Mages tend to run to Large Cities, with a fair amount of them in Corporate or Security or Shadowrunning Billets... If you look, there are less Doctors in the world than there are Mages, and I know a ton of Doctors myself... I am sure that you are the same...

Keep the Faith

1% of the entire earth's population is still 60 million people, which is about 1/5 the population of the United States. That's a shit ton of people and it doesn't seem to include non-human awakened such as pixies or naga, or infected awakened, such as ghouls or vampires. I personally like to increase the mage ratio a bit in my games so that magic is a bit more common but really, it doesn't need it all that much. GMs should feel free to plant awakened opposition wherever they feel neccessary, it's fairly likely that the places you want to put mages are the places where they would be more likely to be hired by a corp that wants to hang on to its stuff. Sure, the ratio is less than 1%, and not everyon who is awakened develops their talent, and most Awakened end up as adepts, but the number is still big enough to justify magical opposition whenever a GM wants it.

Is it still 1% in 4e??

Usually its 1% is magically active and the smallest % of that 1% is a full magician. Or previously the smallest % was physical mages which are now mystic adepts.