Counterspelling, Two basic questions. Options

[Banaticus]

If you are on different planes of existence, there is nothing for your "Counterspell" action to target... to be targetable, the magic must be on the same plane as the counterspell to work... seems pretty simple to me...

Except, we already know that if something is stopped on one plane, it's stopped on all planes. If a dual natured person is stopped by a mana barrier, their meat body cannot continue on -- they're stopped. If an active focus is in someone's pocket on an elevator and the elevator passes through a mana barrier, either the barrier breaks or the focus is deactivated.

So, since all spells exist in both the physical and astral plane, since spells are inherently what we call dual natured, a projecting mage only has to stop the astral trace of the spell and that'll stop the physical spell as well. I don't see any conflict at all with a projecting mage counterspelling -- his counterspelling isn't crossing a planar boundary because the spell exists in both planes at once.

The problem is that the setting claims a less than 1% awakened population, but roughly 50-75% of runner teams tend to be awakened.

Let's presume that 80% of a team is awakened and that there are 10 people on the team. That's 8 awakened people. Presuming zero overall population growth over the next tumultuous 65 years, those 8 awakened people represent 0.00000013333333% of the total population. I'm not saying that the people in a Shadowrun team are the only awakened people in the world. No, I'm saying that runners, by definition, are special -- they're PC's!

Now, how many people have won any Nobel Prize? 829, so far. That's 0.00001381666667%, a very small percentage. I'm not comparing percentages directly, my point in asking this question is to now ask, how many of those Nobel winners personally know one or two (or more) other Nobel winners, or at least consider another winner a contact? People who are in rare categories tend to know other people in that rare category, especially in this uber networked time when it's so easy to just pick up your Google Droid and give someone a ring on their Skype account or something.

[FriendoftheDork]

Except, we already know that if something is stopped on one plane, it's stopped on all planes. If a dual natured person is stopped by a mana barrier, their meat body cannot continue on -- they're stopped. If an active focus is in someone's pocket on an elevator and the elevator passes through a mana barrier, either the barrier breaks or the focus is deactivated.

So, since all spells exist in both the physical and astral plane, since spells are inherently what we call dual natured, a projecting mage only has to stop the astral trace of the spell and that'll stop the physical spell as well. I don't see any conflict at all with a projecting mage counterspelling -- his counterspelling isn't crossing a planar boundary because the spell exists in both planes at once.

Let's presume that 80% of a team is awakened and that there are 10 people on the team. That's 8 awakened people. Presuming zero overall population growth over the next tumultuous 65 years, those 8 awakened people represent 0.00000013333333% of the total population. I'm not saying that the people in a Shadowrun team are the only awakened people in the world. No, I'm saying that runners, by definition, are special -- they're PC's!

Now, how many people have won any Nobel Prize? 829, so far. That's 0.00001381666667%, a very small percentage. I'm not comparing percentages directly, my point in asking this question is to now ask, how many of those Nobel winners personally know one or two (or more) other Nobel winners, or at least consider another winner a contact? People who are in rare categories tend to know other people in that rare category, especially in this uber networked time when it's so easy to just pick up your Google Droid and give someone a ring on their Skype account or something.

I like your take on it and that is how I see the flow of mana as well.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Spells aren't dual natured. They have a mana shadow just like a living thing but they don't have an astral form. If they did, you could hit a purely astral target with a lightning bolt. Because spells only ever exist on the plane in which they are cast, counterspelling only works on them if it is used by a magician on the same plane. It does seem as if spells have a slightly thicker astral form than a simple astral shadow as they are slowed down by mana barriers, but they can still pass through them and the target on the other side gets a bonus to his dice pool equal to the Force of the Barrier. There do seem to be a few inconsistencies in the fluff of spells, but considering that counterspelling is placed on people and not spells anyway, you'd still need to exist on the same plane as the person in order to counterspell for them.

[Dakka Dakka]

Spells aren't dual natured. They have a mana shadow just like a living thing but they don't have an astral form. If they did, you could hit a purely astral target with a lightning bolt. Because spells only ever exist on the plane in which they are cast, counterspelling only works on them if it is used by a magician on the same plane.

While this makes sense according to ingame logic, it isn't actually true. The Counterspeller only needs to perceive the target of the spell, not the spell itself. Whether the target's aura is enough also is not specified.

It does seem as if spells have a slightly thicker astral form than a simple astral shadow as they are slowed down by mana barriers, but they can still pass through them and the target on the other side gets a bonus to his dice pool equal to the Force of the Barrier.

Mana Barriers only affect spells if they are on the same plane as the spell. Only wards and lodges affect all spells since they themselves are dual-natured. A mana barrier spell created on the astral plane could do nothing against a spell cast on the physical plane.

[CeeJay]

Spells aren't dual natured. They have a mana shadow just like a living thing but they don't have an astral form. If they did, you could hit a purely astral target with a lightning bolt. Because spells only ever exist on the plane in which they are cast, counterspelling only works on them if it is used by a magician on the same plane.

That's it.

It does seem as if spells have a slightly thicker astral form than a simple astral shadow as they are slowed down by mana barriers, but they can still pass through them and the target on the other side gets a bonus to his dice pool equal to the Force of the Barrier.

First of all, most spell (excluding elemental combat spells) do not "fly" through the space between caster and target. Here is the relevant sentence from SR4A:

The act of choosing a target establishes a mystic link between caster and target. It is through this “targeting link” which the mana of a spell construct is channeled to produce a spell effect.

So you don't have to worry about spells having "slightly thicker astral form". Astral Barriers work by hindering the caster to establish that mystic link.
And what exactly do you mean by mana barriers? The spell? Well, the spell Mana Barrier is cast on either the physical or the astral plane. As such, it will only work on the plane it was cast. Therefore a Mana Barrier cast on the physical plane will protect the sammy from hostile spells cast in the physical plane but it doesn't affect anything happening on the astral plane. I know this sounds strange, but that's the way it is.
Or were you speaking about wards? Wards are essentially dual-natured (SR4A p. 194). On both planes they act a solid barriers to spells (and to maifesting entities). On the astral plane a mana barrier also restricts the movement much like a physical wall does on the physical plane.

-CJ

[jimbo]

Again, Counterspelling has nothing to do planes, it has to do with LOS. In Street Magic, page 160 of spell design, it clarifies that LOS is established by physical sight or assensing.

Can an astral magician assense a non-Awakened on the physical plane? Yes. So can he Counterspell on that person? Yes. However, the astral mage can not cast a spell on that person. He is only capable of using a SKILL, Counterspelling, to impede the flow of mana to that person.

[DamienKnight]

This is what works pretty well for our group:

An astrally projecting mage can only counterspell (M)ana based spells. They could not attempt to counterspell (P)hysical type spells.

In our game, we allow mages to use their Banishing as a type of Counterspelling against spirit powers. Innate Spell would be stopped by Counterspelling, but other powers would be resisted with Banishing.

[pbangarth]

Again, Counterspelling has nothing to do planes, it has to do with LOS. In Street Magic, page 160 of spell design, it clarifies that LOS is established by physical sight or assensing.

Can an astral magician assense a non-Awakened on the physical plane? Yes. So can he Counterspell on that person? Yes. However, the astral mage can not cast a spell on that person. He is only capable of using a SKILL, Counterspelling, to impede the flow of mana to that person.

I think you started on the right track, but didn't take the point to its logical conclusion. On the astral plane, you can only see the astral shadow of the target, not the target itself. So, you could Counterspell something affecting the shadow (though no such attack exists), but not the target itself. Vice versa if perceiving on the physical plane. You cannot Counterspell something happening on the astral plane because you cannot see the astral target. Astrally perceiving characters cannot see both planes at the same time.

[Dakka Dakka]

On the astral plane, you can only see the astral shadow of the target, not the target itself. So, you could Counterspell something affecting the shadow (though no such attack exists), but not the target itself. Vice versa if perceiving on the physical plane. You cannot Counterspell something happening on the astral plane because you cannot see the astral target. Astrally perceiving characters cannot see both planes at the same time.

With this reasoning you are very quickly on the road to forbidding any spells but touch spells cast by an astrally perceiving character at a mundane target. I doubt this is the intention of the rules.

[jimbo]

I think you started on the right track, but didn't take the point to its logical conclusion. On the astral plane, you can only see the astral shadow of the target, not the target itself. So, you could Counterspell something affecting the shadow (though no such attack exists), but not the target itself. Vice versa if perceiving on the physical plane. You cannot Counterspell something happening on the astral plane because you cannot see the astral target. Astrally perceiving characters cannot see both planes at the same time.

From the astral the mage can assense the physical plane, which according to SM meets the standard of LOS. LOS=Counterspelling. The astral mage is drawing LOS to the person, not his shadow.

[Dakka Dakka]

From the astral the mage can assense the physical plane, which according to SM meets the standard of LOS. LOS=Counterspelling. The astral mage is drawing LOS to the person, not his shadow.

Could you please provide a quote for that. With assensing you can only perceive the astral plane and you cannot use both modes of perception simultaneously.

[CeeJay]

This is how it works for me:

If you use any skill based on your magic attribute, you manipulate mana. There is mana on the physical plane. There also is mana on the astral plane. Both planes are completely seperated from each other as far as mana is concerned. To manipulate mana on a specific plane, you have to be present there. It is possible for beings to be present on both planes simultaneously (dual-natured). Such beings may be affected by mana on either plane. If such beings manipulate mana themself they must choose a plane on which the effect takes place.

- To affect anything with magical skills at all you need to establish a "mystic link" with the target either by touching, LOS or ritual magic. LOS can be established by seeing or assensing.

- To affect anything with magical skills on the astral plane you have to be present there (either by astral perception or astral projection).

- To be affected by magical skills on the astral plane the target has to be present there (by being astrally active).

- To affect anything with magical skills on the physical plane you have to be present there (this is allways the case unless you are on astral projection).

- To be affected by magical skills on the physical plane the target has to be present there.

This leads to the conclusion that Counterspelling only works on a plane where the magician is present.

-CJ

[darthmord]

And since Magic does not cross the planar boundry, why would counterspelling do so... Assuming that it does breaks that very simple law...
To counter a spell, you must be on the same plane that it originates from...

Keep the Faith

Unless it works like Spirit Powers... once active, you can switch to another Plane.

The Guard Power works like that. Materialize, activate Guard, shift back to Astral.

Perhaps Counterspelling works the same way.

Besides, if you are astrally perceiving, the people around you are still within LOS (unobstructed observable view between you & them).

[pbangarth]

The idea that line of sight is maintained across the astral/physical boundary is contradicted by the specification for the Dispelling sub-function of Counterspelling on page 185 of SR4A, where it clearly states that one has to be on the same plane as the spell being Dispelled. Spells on the physical plane have an astral shadow/image, yet cannot be Dispelled by someone on the astral plane. Seems clear enough to me.

[Karoline]

The idea that line of sight is maintained across the astral/physical boundary is contradicted by the specification for the Dispelling sub-function of Counterspelling on page 185 of SR4A, where it clearly states that one has to be on the same plane as the spell being Dispelled. Spells on the physical plane have an astral shadow/image, yet cannot be Dispelled by someone on the astral plane. Seems clear enough to me.

There you go. That proves a few things. First off it proves that spells are not duel natured (as someone tried claiming), because if they were, it wouldn't matter what plane you are on when trying to dispell a spell. It also proves that in order to be able to affect a spell, you must be on the same plane as it. So thus, even though you can establish LOS across planes, you cannot effect magic across planes (With the sole exception of sustaining spells it seems). If you can't 'hinder mana' around something across planes to dispell a spell, there is little reason to think that you can 'hinder mana' around a person to give counterspelling benefit across planes.

[darthmord]

There you go. That proves a few things. First off it proves that spells are not duel natured (as someone tried claiming), because if they were, it wouldn't matter what plane you are on when trying to dispell a spell. It also proves that in order to be able to affect a spell, you must be on the same plane as it. So thus, even though you can establish LOS across planes, you cannot effect magic across planes (With the sole exception of sustaining spells it seems). If you can't 'hinder mana' around something across planes to dispell a spell, there is little reason to think that you can 'hinder mana' around a person to give counterspelling benefit across planes.

Then explain how astral hazing is able to do just that. It affects all mana regardless of plane it is resident on. Same thing goes for Mana Static.

Can't have it both ways.

[Karoline]

Because counterspelling doesn't create BC? Astral hazing and mana static create BC, and BC exists on both planes.

[Dakka Dakka]

As far as I'm concerned, Mana Static creates BC only on one plane.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Besides, if you are astrally perceiving, the people around you are still within LOS (unobstructed observable view between you & them).

If you are on the physical plane and you are astrally perceiving, you are still on the physical plane and your counterspelling would work just fine, for those on the Physical Plane... if you are seperated by the planar boundry, No counterspelling (you are not on the same plane of existence)

Keep the Faith

[Banaticus]

Spells aren't dual natured. They have a mana shadow just like a living thing but they don't have an astral form. If they did, you could hit a purely astral target with a lightning bolt.

If you could magically reach out and grab a person's shadow, could you use that firm grip to yank their meat body? Spells leave an astral impression. Stop the astral impression, stop the shadow, and you stop the "meat body" of the spell. The thing is, when you create a shadow, you aren't necessarily creating a physical body to go with that shadow. When you create a mana spell on the astral plane, you're only creating the shadow, it has no physical portion. Thus, even being able to stop a shadow which stops the physical part (counterspell from the astral plane) doesn't mean you can cast a physical lightning bolt on the physical plane while you're on the astral plane, because you can only create/manipulate "shadows" on the astral plane.

[Karoline]

If you could magically reach out and grab a person's shadow, could you use that firm grip to yank their meat body? Spells leave an astral impression. Stop the astral impression, stop the shadow, and you stop the "meat body" of the spell. The thing is, when you create a shadow, you aren't necessarily creating a physical body to go with that shadow. When you create a mana spell on the astral plane, you're only creating the shadow, it has no physical portion. Thus, even being able to stop a shadow which stops the physical part (counterspell from the astral plane) doesn't mean you can cast a physical lightning bolt on the physical plane while you're on the astral plane, because you can only create/manipulate "shadows" on the astral plane.

Now you're just using random terminology and failing to arrive at a proper conclusion that is supported by anything at all you've said.

You can't stop an astral impression, you can't stop a shadow, you can't stop a spell on the physical plane from the astral plane.

[FriendoftheDork]

The idea that line of sight is maintained across the astral/physical boundary is contradicted by the specification for the Dispelling sub-function of Counterspelling on page 185 of SR4A, where it clearly states that one has to be on the same plane as the spell being Dispelled. Spells on the physical plane have an astral shadow/image, yet cannot be Dispelled by someone on the astral plane. Seems clear enough to me.

This is the single best argument so far. Counterspelling is in essence the same as Dispelling (except as the spell is forming not just while sustained).

Otherwise I could say that the mystical link is what you're actually counterspelling, and not the spell itself and AFAIK the mystical link is there on the astral plane plain to see even with physical spells.

However that would mean that counterspelling indirect combat spells wouldn't work at all, instead of working partially (cannot prevent the spell from forming but can mitigate it's effects).

I think you're right, but I actually liked the idea that magic is astral in nature and only some parts of it are visible on the material plane.

[Dakka Dakka]

This is the single best argument so far. Counterspelling is in essence the same as Dispelling (except as the spell is forming not just while sustained).

This is not rtrue. The counterspeller does not target the spell. He aims at the spell's target i.e. another person/object.

However that would mean that counterspelling indirect combat spells wouldn't work at all, instead of working partially (cannot prevent the spell from forming but can mitigate it's effects).

Actually as of SR4A Counterspelling Indirect Combat spells works in the same way as other spells. The target's player rolls REA+Counterspelling(+Dodge/Acrobatics on full Defense) against the spell. The spell's damage is resisted by BOD+Impact Armor/2(+Special Elemental Protection).

[FriendoftheDork]

This is not rtrue. The counterspeller does not target the spell. He aims at the spell's target i.e. another person/object.

Actually as of SR4A Counterspelling Indirect Combat spells works in the same way as other spells. The target's player rolls REA+Counterspelling(+Dodge/Acrobatics on full Defense) against the spell. The spell's damage is resisted by BOD+Impact Armor/2(+Special Elemental Protection).

Counterspelling and Dispelling uses the same skill, so it is not a bad assumption that they work similarly. But yeah thats a point... argh now I'm undecided again. Damn you all!

I didn't know that about SR4a, the rules change document was vague saying only that counterspelling works against Indirect spells as well as Direct. Which they always have IIRC. The main difference was that counterspelling was applied to the soak, not wether the spell physically hit or not (I.E was dodged).

IMHO I liked the old version alot better and made Indirect Spells almost worth their cost when used against people protected by counterspelling.

[Dakka Dakka]

IMHO I liked the old version alot better and made Indirect Spells almost worth their cost when used against people protected by counterspelling.

QFT