Flintlocks, Black powder questions Options

[nezumi]

[boodah]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Lindt]

Game terms IMO. Treat as gel rounds, cept then do physical damage.

[Austere Emancipa...]

Then be sure to give that knockdown bonus of gel rounds to shotguns firing slugs as well, and to any large-caliber rifles firing expanding ammunition.

Although useless for Reaver: Do gel rounds go against Impact or Ballistic? I could find reference in the Ammo section on p. 118 of SR3. For these rounds, it should certainly be Ballistic.

[Req]

[danbot37]

I used to hunt with a black powder rifle. It was a civil war replica, not a 'modern muzzle loader. It could shoot anywhere from 80 to 120 grains of black powder, shooting .50 caliber (half an inch wide, mind you) balls. Shooting one, I read as much as I could about em, and this is what I know (as probably could be found in any black powder sporting magazine)... Often times, a .50 or .54 caliber black powder rifle would be used for elephant hunting at the turn of the century or so, and it would work. Thats a lot of power, to take down an elephant. These elephant rifles did use more grains than a standard rifle, but a half inch wide soft lead ball travelling at that speed would leave a good sized hole, and the expansion of the bullet when it hits will tear something up. Makes quite an exit wound on a watermelon, I can tell you that from experience. Some civil war soldiers/woodsmen could shoot acurately at ranges up to a 1000 yards, but much speed would be lost by then, and they had to aim high above the target to hit it. Some power and damage of a modern day blackpowder rifle may be increased, as some can even shoot rifled bullets. Other effects might be a cover modifier if used in sr;even modern black powder makes quite a bit of smoke. As far as rate of fire, a GOOD shooter could shoot 3 rounds per minute, so you're looking at some time to load ( a few rounds at least)

[Austere Emancipa...]

[lodestar]

Just as a side note the Street Sweeper as presented in the CC gives you the cost of powder "cubes" one might use for such purposes. Given that it's performance should be similar to that of a black powder shot gun one might use similar rules for muskets.

Where's Raygun when you need him? ;)

[Fortune]

[Diesel]

That's dumb.

[Fortune]

Why?

[Shanshu Freeman]

[boodah]

[Reaver]

[Birdy]

Some data:

a) There is a difference between rifles (with grooves/lands in the barrel, imparting spin stabilisation on the bullet) and muskets (smoothbore, no spin)

British Rifleman of the Napoleonic area firing the rather low powered Baker rifle (Think Sharps Shooters here) could reliably hit targets out to 200m. Some hunting rifles had longer ranges.

Muskets where a compromise between the complicated loading of a rifled muzzle loader (That involved the use of a mallet as well as regular cleaning and/or use of greased patches[US hunters]) and range. Add the difficulties in drilling the grooves and the rather low standing times before the weapon was "shot out" and massed musket fire from the rather cheaply available soldiers was a nice idea for those who didn't have to stand in line.

b) There is a difference between an 1815 muzzleloader (say Brown Bess or the above Baker) and a 1865 muzzleloader (say Civil war era guns). The latter are rifled (even the "Muskets") firing the Miniee bullet (ovoid bullet that allowed fast loading of rifled muzzelloaders and expandes into the grooves on firing. French development) That the civil war/crimean war/US-Mexican war saw quite a few of the "classic" line attacks has to do with military inertia[1] and the rather low visibility on blackpowder battlefields as well as the rather low training of quite a few troops.

c) After the US civil war, the standard service rifle (Springfield Pattern 1858 IIRC) was converted to a metall cartridge firing weapon that served the US Army until the time of the Cuban War - The "Trapdoor Springfield" first in .50 than in .45-70

d) All weapons until the introduction of the French Lebel 8mm (around 1880) where firing black powder since our modern nitro powder was developed by the french for that rifle!

e) The following famous weapons are using blackpowder without a cartridge/a paper cartridge (that just eases loading)

Colt Navy
Colt Walker
Colt Dragoon
All Sharps rifles before IIRC 1865
Hall Carabine (US Army)

f) Dead

Even as late as WWII the big mankillers where infections and bleeding to death. High speed, ovoid/pointed nose bullets are actually better at wounding than at killing (Kill one = 2man, 1 hour, wound one= 4-6 man multiple days)

Within their letal range muzzell


Conclusion:

A rifled muzzelloader is effective out to 200m

A blackpowder weapon has a one shot kill capacity if rifled as prooven in various wars

The damage capacity is not much lower than with modern firearms but ranges are shorter, ammunition is heavier (IIRC around 9-10mm is the smallest effective bore size for a blackpowder rifle while even first generation nitro-powder weapons achived the same damage and better ranges at 7.5-8mm)

I'd say give them a hunting rifles damage (6S-7S), low rate of fire (1-2 rnd/minute for elite units like 92/95[2] Foot) and short range (say 150m) for early 19th century rifled weapons.

Give Muskets a lower damage[3] (5M-7M), low rate of fire (3-4 rnd/minute) and a short range (say 25m)

Michael


[1] Ask Custer about Gaitlings....
[2] Only one of the two really existed, the other is Cornwells "Fictional Twin" for his brilliant "Sharps" series (The novels!)
[3] Unlike rifles with their tight fit muskets loose energy from the loose fit of the bullet

[nezumi]

The biggest change will be reloading time, as was already mentioned. Muskets are pretty quick to load compared to rifles. I believe at Williamsburg they said an unskilled person could load a musket in under 15 seconds, a skilled person in under 7. Rifles take significantly longer (go with the number mentioned earlier). Either way, I'd make a quickness or muskets/rifles test every time I reloaded and divide 15 by the number of successes.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[danbot37]

I just coulda sworn at a visit to Shiloh National Battlefield they said a 1000 yards... I know it wasn't 100, I could shoot accurately at 100 and have no skill, I see no reason why someone who shot his dinner everday with one couldn't be that accurate;also note this was for showing off purposes only, at that range, there was not nough power to do much of anything.

[CrimsonBaron]

Well it really depended on the type of black powder weapon, an unrifled brown bess that was a common british weapon, had virtually a 10 meter accuracy range because it was smooth bore with no rifling. Remember the saying, "Do not fire until you see the whites of their eyes?" they said this because they couldnt hit anything til you saw the whites of the eyes. As the Kentucky long rifle had an effective range of 300 meters, because it was rifled. As for pistols, I once saw a man stand 10 feet from a sheet on a string, shoot at it, and miss so that will tell you bout that. As for killing power, a round ball from a flint lock musket does not even come close to the killing power of a modern AR round, hope this helps.

[Raygun]

[mfb]

give pistols 6M, muskets 6S, and add a +1 or +2 modifier to the firing TNs. 6M and 6S don't sound like much--but then, nobody has armor that's effective.

[crazyivans]

I have a question... Why would you Want to use a Muzzleloader? What are your role-playing reasons? I cant seem to figure it out...

Oh, and growing up me Da and I used to shoot and Hunt with Muzzleloaders. All the low range statements for smoothbores are pretty accurate, low range. But during Rev and Civil Wars, Sharpshooter Divisions armed with Rifled, Flint and Cap-Lock Rifles, were known to be effective as far out as 300 yards, so bear that in mind. As far as damage goes, you can fell a 6" tree, at 20 yards with a 45 caliber Muzzleloader and 100 grains, the blowout damage is so severe. But, ANY Ballistic armour would bring down the damage greatly, IMHO...

[Austere Emancipa...]