Knowledge Skills Options

[endou_kenji]

I started GMing to a new group (most of them are completely new to RPG) and I'm having a little trouble in getting them to come up with ideas for their Knowledge skills. It's already been hard as hell to get them to pick their skills, since they were only getting the main skills for their characters (Gunslingers picking up firearms and dodge, hackers picking hacking, etc.), without expanding to what the "real" character really knows.

Well, after some tries and explanations how the game works, they got some leeway and went a bit further ahead... that's a start at least. I'll try to get more out of them after their first run (so they'll have a clue as to what's going on in that crazy-creativity-no-rules-are-obligatory-game).

So, anybody got ANY kind of skill list for Knowledge skills? The one in the book is just too short, it doesn't even touch the iceberg...

[FriendoftheDork]

I started GMing to a new group (most of them are completely new to RPG) and I'm having a little trouble in getting them to come up with ideas for their Knowledge skills. It's already been hard as hell to get them to pick their skills, since they were only getting the main skills for their characters (Gunslingers picking up firearms and dodge, hackers picking hacking, etc.), without expanding to what the "real" character really knows.

Well, after some tries and explanations how the game works, they got some leeway and went a bit further ahead... that's a start at least. I'll try to get more out of them after their first run (so they'll have a clue as to what's going on in that crazy-creativity-no-rules-are-obligatory-game).

So, anybody got ANY kind of skill list for Knowledge skills? The one in the book is just too short, it doesn't even touch the iceberg...

Yeah I know the system takes getting used to. And the main challenge is not just inventing knowledge skills, but to balance them out, not let them have too narrow or too wide applications. For example, is Knowledge:Politics ok or do you need to take Knowledge: UCAS politics? BTW, if you're using something else than the standard BP system I strongly suggest giving out free knowledge skill points or they might not even bother to get any.

A good way to go would be to ask for some backgrounds, or at least ask each player where they hail from and where they have learned their active skills. How did mr. gunslinger get the awesome pistol skill? Unless they're all suffering from Amnesia™ , they should have some idea of what they could know. Also ask them what they thing their character is doing in their spare time. Partying wildly? Playing online matrix games? Reading dusty old tomes? Whatever they pick, you can easily make some knowledge skills off them. Just put them in the right category (in this case Interest skills): Knowledge:Seattle Nightlife, Matrix games, Novels.... the world's your oyster.

So basically, ask your players. Let them know they're getting skills for free and they should be happy trying to invent crazy new skills. Awaken the roleplayer!

[Saint Sithney]

If it's their first time though, don't really worry about it.

Honestly, their first time characters are going to make so many colossal mistakes that they should die in a massive firefight.
Just let them know that this is a Test Run and that they're not really expected to survive. Basically, the first set of missions for any group who is actually interested in getting a good experience out of this game should be nothing more than a series of suicide missions by which they can get a deeper understanding of what their character is and isn't capable of and where their weaknesses lay.

Any actual runner should know their limits. Your players, as new recruits, have no idea what their limits are. The first intro runs should push them against those limits until they break.

After that, if they like the setting, system and characters they've chosen, they'll be set to refine their choices and try for real. If they don't like their characters, they can try ones that fit their playstyle better. If they don't like the system or settings, you can talk with them about what they might want to change or just chalk it up to a loss at that point rather than trying to drag it out until they quit one by one.

[Karoline]

Personally I always look over the sample PCs for suggestions with knowledge skills.

A real quick list is:
<gang/crime group/government/company> politics.
<government/company> law.
Any science such as chemistry, biology, etc.
Any hobby that doesn't have an active skills.
Anything you could get a degree in from a college.
<object type> design.
<object type> history.
Magical <Theory/research/background/history/other>
<Street/combat> drugs
<City/gang/crime group> safehouses.
<object type> Trivia.
<type> Music.
<Company/government agency> security procedures/tactics
Local Area <Knowledge, geography, etc>
<gang/crime group> turf
<gang/crime group> identification
<sport> <betting/odds/statistics>
Any broad reaching service type. Talismongers, junkdealers, drugdealers, mechanics, etcs.
Any gang/group as a whole.
And so on. A comprehensive list would be exceedingly long, but this should get some ideas churning.

[Kumo]

<gang/crime group/government/company> politics.
<government/company> law.

Maybe someone worked for a corp/goverment/police?

Any science such as chemistry, biology, etc.
Any hobby that doesn't have an active skills.
Anything you could get a degree in from a college.
<object type> design.
<object type> history.
Magical <Theory/research/background/history/other>
<Street/combat> drugs
<City/gang/crime group> safehouses.
<object type> Trivia.
<type> Music.

Maybe a PC has the same hobby as player. Basketball? Firearms design/martial arts/ (he has not to be a good fighter, he's just good in theory; knows much about it)? Chinese food? Troll porn (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) ?

<Company/government agency> security procedures/tactics
Local Area <Knowledge, geography, etc>
<gang/crime group> turf
<gang/crime group> identification
<sport> <betting/odds/statistics>
Any broad reaching service type. Talismongers, junkdealers, drugdealers, mechanics, etcs.
Any gang/group as a whole.

Very useful things for runner, don't you think? Sample PC's from BBB have also knowledge about safe houses, smuggler havens, etc.

[CanadianWolverin...]

You know what this sounds like to me? Like a low BP setting would be in order, like have them all start out as street urchins in the barrens or something, then introduce the setting of SR to them bit by bit, with each introduction if they have their characters take particular notable interest in any particular piece of the setting, award them it as a free rating 1 Knowledge skill (and a point of Karma possibly?), sort of like what characters do to get new Contacts. Gradually introduce them to it and before you know it they will probably each be exploring their characters like crazy. It should also allow gradual introduction of the game mechanics as well.

Every character was a kid with no knowledge skills at some point, correct? So how did a shadowrunner become one? How did they survive long enough to learn what a Mr. J was, let alone what it shadows are or a basic idea of what it means to be running them?

Most of the character background and BP spending is just answering those questions at a faster pace, there is probably a game in playing a kid raised by the world of SR too though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Glyph]

Low-BP settings are great - for experienced players looking for something different. For beginning players, itching to play katana-wielding elven mages and hulking trolls with belt-fed machineguns, starting them out as punk kids in the barrens will be likely to make them completely lose interest in the game.

For some knowledge skills, here is a good place to start.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Pff... Speak for yourself, I know I am a noob and would have loved a low BP setting and a generous GM rather than what I went through with a GM and players who were overwhelmed with all the possibilities. Instead, I heard that play group that I was no longer enjoying the vibe of just ended up going back to familiar, safe territory.

I don't think you realize just how interesting the setting is for me as a noob and how big the numbers are only matters as much as the challenges you face have.

[Zolhex]

Low-BP settings are great - for experienced players looking for something different. For beginning players, itching to play katana-wielding elven mages and hulking trolls with belt-fed machineguns, starting them out as punk kids in the barrens will be likely to make them completely lose interest in the game.

For some knowledge skills, here is a good place to start.

As Glyph has pointed to my post in Community Projects I guess all I can say is yeah there ya go (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

You could do it the following way:

- They don't have to assign their free Knowledge points right away. Any unspent points are kept in a shed.

- Whenever they want to use a Knowledge they don't have, they make up a story about why they might have that Knowledge, and take some unspent points from the shed and write them on their character sheet.

[Doc Byte]

Yeah I know the system takes getting used to. And the main challenge is not just inventing knowledge skills, but to balance them out, not let them have too narrow or too wide applications. For example, is Knowledge:Politics ok or do you need to take Knowledge: UCAS politics?

That's when threshold modifiers come into play.

[Zolhex]

Knowledge:Politics is fine for UCAS politics make that a specialization

[endou_kenji]

You know what this sounds like to me? Like a low BP setting would be in order, like have them all start out as street urchins in the barrens or something, then introduce the setting of SR to them bit by bit, with each introduction if they have their characters take particular notable interest in any particular piece of the setting, award them it as a free rating 1 Knowledge skill (and a point of Karma possibly?), sort of like what characters do to get new Contacts. Gradually introduce them to it and before you know it they will probably each be exploring their characters like crazy. It should also allow gradual introduction of the game mechanics as well.

Every character was a kid with no knowledge skills at some point, correct? So how did a shadowrunner become one? How did they survive long enough to learn what a Mr. J was, let alone what it shadows are or a basic idea of what it means to be running them?

Most of the character background and BP spending is just answering those questions at a faster pace, there is probably a game in playing a kid raised by the world of SR too though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

You could do it the following way:

- They don't have to assign their free Knowledge points right away. Any unspent points are kept in a shed.

- Whenever they want to use a Knowledge they don't have, they make up a story about why they might have that Knowledge, and take some unspent points from the shed and write them on their character sheet.

Hmm... both of 'em are really nice approaches. I'll think about them

[toturi]

An alternative may be to allow Memory tests if the character has come across it before.

Say the character attended a workshop where the instructor ran through some basic topics on say... History. Unless the character puts in effort to absorb the material, he doesn't have History 1 (let's say the length of time of those classes is enough to gain Rating 1). But it does not mean he has forgotten the lessons the very next day, if he has to apply some some of that, he can try to recall what was taught and depending on how good his memory is, he could recall enough to succeed on the test. Mechanically instead of a History Knowledge test, he makes a Memory test.

[Draco18s]

The way I did my characters for a while when I didn't really have a strong idea of the kinds of things they'd know is that I would write down "X more knowledge skill ranks" (those free points) and when it came up in game, "Oh, that's something my character would know" I'd jot down the skill and assign a few of those remaining ranks to it.

For a newbie game just have them all do that, then when you ask for a knowledge check and no one has it (duh) one of them might go "Hey, my character should know that" and have them write it down and assign a few ranks; 3 is usually a good number. If no one pipes up think about the characters in front of you point at one or two of them and go "Your characters would likely have picked this up" and tell them how many ranks they'd have (eg if you point at two players you'd probably give one of them 1 rank and the other guy 3 or 4, one of them knows it better, but two of them get to roll).

[Samoth]

Does anyone have a list of knowledge skills that actually have written game ueses? SR3 had a whole bunch, for example: You could add 1/2 dice from Psychology Knowledge Skill to all Negotations tests.

The only ones I've seen in SR 4 are the skills that apply to Enchanting gathering (Geology, botany, etc.) And of course Chemistry, which is listed as a knoweldge skill on a bunch of archetypes and contacts, but as an active skill in the skills section (but not on the big list of skills).

[Ol' Scratch]

For the most part, they got rid of Knowledge Skills bringing anything to the table other than actual knowledge in SR4. The talismongering bit is more of a legacy cut-and-paste than it is a legitimate update of those rules to the new system. Chemistry is pretty clearly one where they realized that it needed to be updated to the new rules at the last minute, but didn't bother to upgrade all the references. The fact that Artisan is a friggin' active skill now says it all, really. I much preferred it when Knowledge Skills represented hobbies and non-running talents/interests. But oh well.

I'm straying, though. I don't think there's such a list because there really isn't any point of there being a list. At best, there's only a couple of skills to put on it, and they're all going to be niche benefits at best.

[DireRadiant]

The list of knowledges skills is only limited by the imagination.

How big is yours?

[Bull]

Regarding the Broad and Narrow skill sets... We've always allowed players to go as broad or as narrow as they wanted at our table. Bascially though, the broader the range, the less detail you know.

You might have KNowledge: Crime Syndicates. In which case, you have some broad, general knowledge about all the various crime syndicates around the globe, potentially. But without a lot of hits, you won't know much more about the indivdiual families and local syndicates than maybe the heads.

Having Knowledge: Seattle Crime Syndicates gives you more information about Seattle CS's, but not much on a global scale. You'll know things like the major leaders for each, and what areas they traffic in.

Having KNowledge: Seattle Mafia means you don't know much about the other syndicates in Seattle, let alone the global syndicates. but for Seattle, you know the bosses, the LTs, probably a lot of the made men, even places they like to meet and hang out.

Now, you can also skirt this a bit by dropping a couple extra points and specializing, which effectively doubles up the knowledge skilla reas a bit. Having Seattle Crime Syndicates with a Specialization in the MOb gives you the benefit of both.

Like I said, that's just generally how we work it. We're pretty loose with knowledge skills overall though.

Bull

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Regarding the Broad and Narrow skill sets... We've always allowed players to go as broad or as narrow as they wanted at our table. Bascially though, the broader the range, the less detail you know.

You might have KNowledge: Crime Syndicates. In which case, you have some broad, general knowledge about all the various crime syndicates around the globe, potentially. But without a lot of hits, you won't know much more about the indivdiual families and local syndicates than maybe the heads.

Having Knowledge: Seattle Crime Syndicates gives you more information about Seattle CS's, but not much on a global scale. You'll know things like the major leaders for each, and what areas they traffic in.

Having KNowledge: Seattle Mafia means you don't know much about the other syndicates in Seattle, let alone the global syndicates. but for Seattle, you know the bosses, the LTs, probably a lot of the made men, even places they like to meet and hang out.

Now, you can also skirt this a bit by dropping a couple extra points and specializing, which effectively doubles up the knowledge skilla reas a bit. Having Seattle Crime Syndicates with a Specialization in the MOb gives you the benefit of both.

That's what I had discussed with Garou one of these days.

With Crime Syndicates you might need 3-5 hits to even know the name of the Consigliere or Yakuza boss in Seattle but can't name anybody who isn't some local leader, with Seattle Crime Syndicates, you might need just 1-2 hits to know this and more hits to know the name o a lieutenant, with Seattle Mafia, you just need one hit to know the names of big Mafia people, 2 hits for lieutenants, 3-4 for some thugs, bookies, etc.

[Ascalaphus]

Maybe it would help to first do the 20 questions from runners companion, and then fill in the Knowledges.

[Saint Sithney]

Does anyone have a list of knowledge skills that actually have written game ueses? SR3 had a whole bunch, for example: You could add 1/2 dice from Psychology Knowledge Skill to all Negotations tests.

The only ones I've seen in SR 4 are the skills that apply to Enchanting gathering (Geology, botany, etc.) And of course Chemistry, which is listed as a knoweldge skill on a bunch of archetypes and contacts, but as an active skill in the skills section (but not on the big list of skills).

Off top, I can only recall Psychology being used in PAB tests to (un)brainwash people.

Don't know any other Knowledge Skills with listed uses.