Vehicles, Drones, and Agents, For Fun and Profit Options

[Draco18s]

Why would you want such a monstrosity?

Like I said, the character is unplayable. My goal was to find a character who couldn't die. Due to the combination of templates it can only take subdual damage and has will and fort saves over 25 (all Death spells use one or the other and even a 9th level spell has a DC of 19 + [stat] + [mod] where [mod] is typically 4 or less, so in order to be capable of failing* [stat] would need to be +7 or a 24)

*Excluding natural 1s, which IIRC, he can't even fail Fort saves on those. Steadfast Determination is <3 especially when your wisdom is 4.

[Neraph]

Neraph...
How to put this... limited maneuverability REMOVES the engines/motors and transmission. That's how they get the extra mod space.

Changing a wheeled vehicle to a walker means you change the drivetrain but you keep the motors and engines etc..

Sorry, while it's nifty in concept "Limited Maneuverability" is on it's face incompatible w/ "Walker Mode". In what way does a walker drone have 'limited maneuverability' and unable to move itself under it's own power?! Maybe if I put puppet strings on it and move it that way (it has the legs now w/ the mod but no motive system to move them... so hell that actually make sense).

Even you must admit that this reading makes sense under strict RAW. If it has both mods it is subject to both mods text.
Limited maneuverability... drones speed/accel go to 0 as it's motive systems are removed. "A drone w/ limited maneuverability DOES NOT MOVE ON IT"S OWN" As long as you keep that mod (minidrones), that drone does not move on it's own, even if you give it another mod.
Walker mode: Speed and Acceleration are halved round down... well half of 0 is still 0! It's immobile.. so even it's handling +1 is questionable.

IE: limited maneuverability iBall.... modification lighter than air... okay it inflates a weather balloon and goes where the wind takes it.

This is interesting, because that's not really how the rules actually work. You add the Limited Maneuverability modification onto a dron, gaining 4 mod slots. The drone can no longer move on its own, but its movement methods are not gone - IE: it still has acceleration and speed attributes. All you're doing is then taking a drone that has the Limited Maneuverability modification and adding on another modification that creates a movement mode, like Walker Mode or Lighter Than Air. This does not violate the rules, and the new form of movement changes the acceleration stat, allowing the drone to move once again.

As far as your comments about Rule0.. I would only agree with you in a setting like Battletech or some other wargame where the rules are very cut and dried, and there's very little room for GM to change things. The rules in that sense are designed to arbitrate a contest between two closely matched opponents fairly w/o the presence of a GM.

RPG's tend to be a completely different animal. In this we have a cooperative game. Not only that, but the rules actively EXPECT the GM to arbitrate things and give players far more leeway to operate in, as there's expected to be a human brain saying.. okay now you're just being silly.

IIRC, there's an old saying, "The law is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

This is simply wrong; an RPG is simply a wargame with one team versus the GM with a focus on "feelings."

At best it's an interesting attempt to game the construction rules.


Though then you hit the other problems... software suites and the like. Generally that's the kind of thing only a GM should construct for his game world. Just like cyberware suites and the like, these aren't custom built for the runner but reflect product offerings for sale to people w/ money and who need it in quantity.

There are many things wrong with your closing statements.

1) It is more than simply an "interesting attempt to game the construction rules" - it actually is using the construction rules to build something that should be allowed in games at any table. The reason it should be allowed is because it conforms to the rules as they are written.

2) Software Suites and Cyberware Suites are encouraged to be designed by GMs, but can you show me a rule that states the players cannot have them custom-made? They can have weapons and armor custom-made for them, so why not Cyberware and Software Suites?

3) The entire purpose of your closing statements was designed to undermine what I have posted. It was an attempt to discredit what I found, which is perfectly legal under the rules of the game. Either you're ignorant of the rules (even though I quoted pages and rules where neccessary) or you are purposefully attempting to convince people that the things I have posted are not in compliance with the rules. If it is the former, read my post again. If it is the latter, I do not appreciate that.

Well, the first post is still wrong, anyway.

I edited the original post to reflect the rules.

EDIT: Edited for compliance to rules for stock modifications.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I edited the original post to reflect the rules.

Huh?
It still has

[+? Slots] Remove Special Equipment (Cute Looks)
[+2 Slots] Remove Walker Mode

[Sengir]

This is simply wrong; an RPG is simply a wargame with one team versus the GM with a focus on "feelings."

Well, if that is your interpretation of RPGs then good luck with it.

3) The entire purpose of your closing statements was designed to undermine what I have posted.

That might be because your interpretations make absolutely non sense to roleplayers.

[Neraph]

Huh?
It still has

Sorry, but if you count the slots used they are correct. I'll fix that.

That might be because your interpretations make absolutely non sense to roleplayers.

What part of "this is absolutely correct, as the rules the way they are written" is so hard to understand? And I've quoted the rules. So you need to either A) quote some rules to show how I can't do this (as someone did to show you can't get slots back for removing stock mods), or B) just say that you'd house-rule this not to work in your games (which is within your rights and I can't argue with).

[Falconer]

Probably because it's not absolutely correct and not the way it's written Neraph.

I don't post to convince you, but to give other players/GM's ammunition to use against powergamer/rules lawyers like you since you saw fit to reduce yourself to ad hominems.



Anyhow, to reiterate since you don't seem to realize... yes, limited maneuverability says exactly that "A DRONE with LIMITED MANEUVERABILITY DOES NOT MOVE ON IT"S OWN"... no matter what mods you add after adding it.
There is no room for wiggle room in there, so long as the mod is in place it's like a kid in a wagon... you can give him a push and he can turn it left or right, but when it stops it stops until you give it another push.

I'll reiterate a classic example... put limited maneuverability on a drone, then give it lighter than air. Okay now yes it gains a new movement method... it can float like a balloon, but it has no control where it goes, it goes where the wind and barometer pushes it. Limited maneuverability means it no longer gets the propulsion means it would normally get to push itself around while airborne. IF the GM is feeling generous, maybe it has altitude control (like a hot air balloon). You put legs on it, and we'll name it Punch (and Judy) and look for a spot to connect the wires.



Sidenote: was anyone else disappointed they didn't kit out all the cybersuites on page31 of augmentation? Only a handfull of them.


My point is again... Augmentation...
"the gamemaster should always keep in mind that cyberware suites—even those of highgrades— are not designed to a runner’s needs, but are standardized packages the cyberware manufacturer develops with a potential consumer in mind, be they corporate employees or the customers off the street."

Who exactly are you building the suite for? WHO is paying the R&D COSTS!!! Remember development costs are not cheap. How many guinea pigs you need to implant before you get a final working model ready for the mass market? (that's a lot of cyber costs)

Yes custom made is possible. Even by the runners, but they better be ready to shell out hundred thousands if not millions of nuyen on development. (at which point they're probably better just buying the higher grade part off the shelf).


The same would go for software suites... and software bundles. (why bundle... when we can put every program at rating 6 in a single software suite and run them all at once! for a single program slot).

[Neraph]

I don't post to convince you, but to give other players/GM's ammunition to use against powergamer/rules lawyers like you since you saw fit to reduce yourself to ad hominems.

I'd like you to show me where I commited an Ad Hominem.

Anyhow, to reiterate since you don't seem to realize... yes, limited maneuverability says exactly that "A DRONE with LIMITED MANEUVERABILITY DOES NOT MOVE ON IT"S OWN"... no matter what mods you add after adding it.
There is no room for wiggle room in there, so long as the mod is in place it's like a kid in a wagon... you can give him a push and he can turn it left or right, but when it stops it stops until you give it another push.

I'll reiterate a classic example... put limited maneuverability on a drone, then give it lighter than air. Okay now yes it gains a new movement method... it can float like a balloon, but it has no control where it goes, it goes where the wind and barometer pushes it. Limited maneuverability means it no longer gets the propulsion means it would normally get to push itself around while airborne. IF the GM is feeling generous, maybe it has altitude control (like a hot air balloon). You put legs on it, and we'll name it Punch (and Judy) and look for a spot to connect the wires.

Ok, so imagine this: You take a drone and put on Limited Maneuverability. Six months later you add Walker Mode. Does that walker mode take 6 slots? Do you have to get rid of Limited Maneuverability to put on Walker Mode?

What I'm saying is you certainly make intellectual sense... to a point. There are other situations where your interpretation of these rules simply fails to retain that intellectual sense. In other words, you appear to be right, but you are in fact wrong.

My point is again... Augmentation...
"the gamemaster should always keep in mind that cyberware suites—even those of highgrades— are not designed to a runner’s needs, but are standardized packages the cyberware manufacturer develops with a potential consumer in mind, be they corporate employees or the customers off the street."

Who exactly are you building the suite for? WHO is paying the R&D COSTS!!! Remember development costs are not cheap. How many guinea pigs you need to implant before you get a final working model ready for the mass market? (that's a lot of cyber costs)

Yes custom made is possible. Even by the runners, but they better be ready to shell out hundred thousands if not millions of nuyen on development. (at which point they're probably better just buying the higher grade part off the shelf).


The same would go for software suites... and software bundles. (why bundle... when we can put every program at rating 6 in a single software suite and run them all at once! for a single program slot).

I'd like to see a rule for R&D costs. That "hundreds of thousands if not millions" is pure conjecture. Keep in mind that one of the Software Suites was actually created by a runner. They obviously do not cost thousands of nuyen to create.

EDIT: As a side note, I actually am coming to like the term "rules lawyer". It actually ends up proving just that - what I am providing here is absolutely according to the rules of the game. I think anyone who actually plays a game would want to play the game according to the rules.

[Sengir]

What part of "this is absolutely correct, as the rules the way they are written" is so hard to understand?

What part of "nobody gives a shit about the rules if following them leads to absurd situations" is so hard to get?

As myself and several others have pointed out, rules in RPGs are not the sacrosanct and definite answer to all questions as in other systems. They are meant as guidelines to create a game world, often left intentionally vague, and GMs are actively encouraged to change rules and stack the deck as they see fit and as it suits their campaign.


Extrapolating a definite "but there is no rule against it" from such vague and arbitrary rules is a clear fallacy, like the museum guard who says that the dinosaur skeleton is 65 million years, three months and two days old (because it was 65 million old when he started working there three months and two day ago).

[Draco18s]

What part of "nobody gives a shit about the rules if following them leads to absurd situations" is so hard to get?

Think about it for a minute, you're playing a game where you are a bear-shape shifter troll firing a panther cannon one handed at a dragon.

And you're worried about "absurd situations"?

[Sengir]

At least inside the game world there is nothing wrong with it. Shapeshifters, trolls and dragons exist. But stuff like backstabbing someone with a ballista does not make any more sense in character than it does in real life.

[Draco18s]

The point of this thread--and others like it--is that the rules sometimes don't make sense. Here's something you can do with the rules as written, even if its not 100% logical.

Your response has been to state that it isn't 100% logical. No shit.

[Neraph]

The point of this thread--and others like it--is that the rules sometimes don't make sense. Here's something you can do with the rules as written, even if its not 100% logical.

Your response has been to state that it isn't 100% logical. No shit.

Thank you.

Besides, the example I gave does not include the option that has your panties in a twist, and it was once sentence (possibly two, I forget exactly and don't care enough to check it - the result is the same either way) out of paragraphs of text.

Of course, the actual point of this thread was to aid players or GMs that end up having lots of cash and no hacker to get around things that would require a hacker. GMs can use the Drone Soldier as effective guards as well.

[Jaid]

Ok, so imagine this: You take a drone and put on Limited Maneuverability. Six months later you add Walker Mode. Does that walker mode take 6 slots? Do you have to get rid of Limited Maneuverability to put on Walker Mode?

What I'm saying is you certainly make intellectual sense... to a point. There are other situations where your interpretation of these rules simply fails to retain that intellectual sense. In other words, you appear to be right, but you are in fact wrong.

okay, sure, let's imagine that.

day 1, you rip out all the stuff that provides your drone with the ability to power itself. the engine, the fuel tank, the whole nine yards, and now you have a brand new soap-box derby car (probably one that doesn't fit within the allowed rules of soap-box derbies, but whatever) with lots of room under the hood to put whatever you feel like. though of course, it should be noted that since you're going to have to travel around Fred Flintstone style you'll want to keep it light.

day 181 (assuming 30 day months for the sake of convenience) you decide that you don't want a car that can only coast downhill anymore (it is supposed to be able to steer, so presumably the steering is still in there). so you decide you're going to put legs into it. now then, can you just pull off the tires and put legs in their place, change the steering to work with the legs, and expect to go anywhere? or, do you have to go back under the head, remove whatever it is that you put in there (possibly a foot-massage machine and an energy drink dispenser), and add the engine, fuel tank, etc back in.

it costs 2 slots to modify a wheeled vehicle to have legs instead. it doesn't magically take less slots just because you first ripped out all the parts you're going to modify and put back in.

[Neraph]

okay, sure, let's imagine that.

day 1, you rip out all the stuff that provides your drone with the ability to power itself. the engine, the fuel tank, the whole nine yards, and now you have a brand new soap-box derby car (probably one that doesn't fit within the allowed rules of soap-box derbies, but whatever) with lots of room under the hood to put whatever you feel like. though of course, it should be noted that since you're going to have to travel around Fred Flintstone style you'll want to keep it light.

day 181 (assuming 30 day months for the sake of convenience) you decide that you don't want a car that can only coast downhill anymore (it is supposed to be able to steer, so presumably the steering is still in there). so you decide you're going to put legs into it. now then, can you just pull off the tires and put legs in their place, change the steering to work with the legs, and expect to go anywhere? or, do you have to go back under the head, remove whatever it is that you put in there (possibly a foot-massage machine and an energy drink dispenser), and add the engine, fuel tank, etc back in.

it costs 2 slots to modify a wheeled vehicle to have legs instead. it doesn't magically take less slots just because you first ripped out all the parts you're going to modify and put back in.

This is just proof that you people don't read the rules. The Limited Maneuverability option is only for minidrones - things that are 10-25 cm big. Also, I would like to point out the obvious: the Walker Mode modification costs 2 slots. It does not cost a vehicle 2 slots for converting it from wheeled to walker, it simply costs 2 slots.

How would you handle putting Walker Mode on an i-Ball? Would that cost 2 slots or 6? They come stock with Limited Maneuverability.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

It does not cost a vehicle 2 slots for converting it from wheeled to walker, it simply costs 2 slots.

No. It costs the groundcraft 2 slots to swap out the previous transport mechanism with legs.

Which drones with limited maneuverability don't have.

[Neraph]

No. It costs the groundcraft 2 slots to swap out the previous transport mechanism with legs.

Which drones with limited maneuverability don't have.

So I ask again - how many slots would it cost to give Walker Mode to an i-Ball that comes stock with Limited Maneuverability?

There's an easy answer - exactly how many the book says; two. And if it works for stock, why not for modded as well?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

There's an easy answer

Which is: It still can't move on it's own by RAW, even though it now has legs. Also keep in mind that while removing Standard Upgrades won't get you additional Slots, the rules don't state that removing them can't cost Slots.

Basically, you just wasted 2 Slots. Until you pony up the 4 additional ones to remove Limited Maneuverability.

[Neraph]

That's funny because it has a listed acceleration and speed, which implies it can in fact move under its own power. Also, the text for Limited Maneuverability states it can move itself as well (minor adjustments and whatnot, but still not complete immovability).

So try that again please.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

That's funny because it has a listed acceleration and speed, which implies it can in fact move under its own power. Also, the text for Limited Maneuverability states it can move itself as well (minor adjustments and whatnot, but still not complete immovability).

Actually, Limited Maneuverability explicitly states that the vehicle can't move on it's own, just steer:

A drone with limited maneuverability does not move on its own—it has to be thrown, shot, or otherwise propelled to its assigned destination. While in the air, it has a minimal ability to slightly alter its course in order to land at a more desirable spot (for example, a spyball being rolled into a room or a reconnaissance drone being shot into the air and then floating down on a parachute.)

So, no – no problem here: The description of the iBall isn't contradicted, the "roll on it's own" part just got reduced to steering capability… which is rolling, too.

Instead of a drone that you can roll into a room, you now got a drone that you can push and have it stagger around until it lost all momentum… of course, it now can handle rougher terrain.

[Neraph]

Actually, Limited Maneuverability explicitly states that the vehicle can't move on it's own, just steer:

So, no – no problem here: The description of the iBall isn't contradicted, the "roll on it's own" part just got reduced to steering capability… which is rolling, too.

Instead of a drone that you can roll into a room, you now got a drone that you can push and have it stagger around until it lost all momentum… of course, it now can handle rougher terrain.

Expert dodging of the matter at hand.

Basically, you just wasted 2 Slots. Until you pony up the 4 additional ones to remove Limited Maneuverability.

Would you be so kind as to actually give a hard rule stating you have to remove this in order to have the item move?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Would you be so kind as to actually give a hard rule stating you have to remove this in order to have the item move?

As long as a vehicle as the Limited Maneuverability modification, the rules for it apply as per RAW. Those rules, already provided, explicitly state: "A drone with limited maneuverability does not move on its own"

You want it to move on it's own? Not possible as long it has the Limited Maneuverability modification, no matter what other modifications you might add.
Thus, you need to remove it, thus losing the slot-benefit of it as well – which is RAW even for Standard Upgrades, since the rules only prohibt gaining slots through removal of Standard Upgrades.

[Sengir]

The point of this thread--and others like it--is that the rules sometimes don't make sense. Here's something you can do with the rules as written, even if its not 100% logical.

And the point of my discussion with Neraph is his claim that GMs should just accept all nonsense if it's RAW (or more precisely, if RAW does not explicitly forbid it).

[Jaid]

This is just proof that you people don't read the rules. The Limited Maneuverability option is only for minidrones - things that are 10-25 cm big. Also, I would like to point out the obvious: the Walker Mode modification costs 2 slots. It does not cost a vehicle 2 slots for converting it from wheeled to walker, it simply costs 2 slots.

so pretend the person doing the modding is a pixie. no significant change to the situation, really. you still haven't demonstrated that by ripping out all the components that let the drone move under its own power to make more room for other stuff, you can then simply replace the tires with legs, tweak the steering, and now the legs magically animate themselves to make the drone walk around. for someone who's accusing others of dodging the argument, you're not doing so good.

as for whether it's the cost of converting or not, i refer you to

Th e transport mechanism of the drone or vehicle is completely
swapped out for one that turns it into a walker

which indicates quite clearly that you are in fact converting it from one thing to another.

you replace the transport mechanism, the drone is now a walker. there is nothing here detailing that it gains the ability to move under its own power. there is nothing detailing that this replaces the engine or any of the other needed components. merely that the drone becomes a walker. in the case of a drone with limited mobility, it will become a walker with limited mobility... congratulations, you've invented the slinky drone. and as long as all you need it to do is go down stairs after being provided an initial external impetus, it can do that quite well. but it isn't going to suddenly start walking down the road.

[Neraph]

That quote you provided can actually be used for my gain as well. If you completely swap out everything for the motors that make a walker, wouldn't that give walker to something that did not have it beforehand?

But here's the important point: that sentence we've been arguing for the last two and a half paegs was one (possibly two) sentences out of a huge post. Ignore it if you want. What about the rest of it? What about the Drone Soldier as potential security rather than metahumans? Or Glitch? Any other problems with him?

[Jaid]

so wait... you're asking us whether we think drones could be used in shadowrun instead of human guards? ummm.... yes. it's kinda been in the setting for a long, long time. most likely as night guards, because during the day you likely have to allow certain people through, and you don't want to gun down your lead researcher just because he forgot his ID card today. but sure, drones are frequently used to supplement or entirely replace security guards. especially drone networks with a spider in charge.