The following thread will be broken into multiple sections...

1) Pilot:

Pages 213 and 214 of the Shadowrun 4th Edition Core Rulebook give us some interesting (and I believe, often overlooked) rules for Pilot programs. The Pilot program is equal to and stands in for the System attribute for vehicles, drones, and agents, and also whichever mental attributes the vehicle/drone/agent may require. It also stands in for the Computer, Cybercombat, Data Search, and Hacking skills, as needed. Remember those for later.

The downside to a Pilot rating is that it intentionally made stupid. The Issuing Commands sidebar on page 214 of SR4; the Pilot Capabilities section of Arsenal on page 102; and in Unwired, the Scripting sidebar page 69, Agent Scripts page 100, To Mook Or Not To Mook sidebar page 101, and the Agent Competency sidebar page 111, all seem specifically designed to make Pilots and Agents retarded. The important part of all of this is the following - in nearly every instance, if something comes up that the Pilot is not "designed" for, you are supposed to roll a Pilot + Response Test to see if the Pilot can adapt. The Adaptability Autosoft (for either Pilots or Drones) can help with this limitation. This will also be important for later.

I would also like to point out that the Unrestricted Agent modifier from page 100 of Unwired is, in my opinion, largely unneeded. The same modification can be done with a simple Extended Test (To Mook Or Not To Mook sidebar, page 101), and it only applies to Agents - not Pilot programs for vehicles and drones (but only on a technicality).


2) Drones and Modifications:

Here's where it starts getting fun. There's certainly a limitation to the modifications we can put into drones to make them viable, but I've found something that helps significantly.

There's a modification for minidrones called "Limited Maneuverability" that adds 4 modification slots, and states that "A drone with limited maneuverability does not move on its own..." (Arsenal, page 139). This is important because it does not remove any speeds from the drone, it just states the drone cannot move on its own. A simple trick for getting more modification slots is by taking a minidrone, applying Limited Maneuverability, and then tacking on Walker Mode, Lighter Than Air, or Tracked Vehicle upgrades to get our movement option back while retaining many modification slots gained from Limited Maneuverability. Any loss of speed can be offset by the Turbocharger and Custom Engine, or you can just find other uses for them, such as the one I'm leading up to.


3) Software:

Now a Pilot program counts as a System, so we don't have to worry about that, but we still have to supply a Firewall. We also have some work to do to make the Pilot as flexible as possible.

Let's take a look at Software Suites from page 128 in Unwired first. This section tells us we can lump any software into one master program that runs like a single program, but has the functions of all the component parts. Note how it does not make any distinction or preference for what types of programs are allowed to be Suite'd together.

Let's also take a look at Software Bundles, page 127, Unwired. This is a "group discount" for buying multiple pre-packaged programs that gives a 10-20% discount overall.

Which leads us to the following: the best possible Software Suites nuyen can buy.



The only program I couldn't fit into a themed Suite was Command, which gets to sit all by itself taking up a processor limit for 600 nuyen or finishing up your Ergonomic payload (assuming a 6 Response/Pilot) for an extra 300.

Now a very important note that I hit just above is that Software Suites do not care what kind of software they Suite - they just lump it together, which leads us to:


Now what would make this whole thing even better would be to toss that Command program that we couldn't place earlier into that Basic Program.

That Adaptability Autosoft, when applied to a drone or Agent, allows the Pilot program to start functioning autonomously considerably easier, and a Pilot that can think for itself should also be able to select the programs/autosofts that are the most appropriate for a situation.


4) Theorhetical Application of Above:

Let's start putting all these puzzle pieces together now.

Let's do a warm-up easy drone/program combination: the Drone Soldier.



It should be noted that I am ignoring the Renraku's "senior citizen syndrome" - the inability to kick, punch, defend itself, ect. I have this setup saved to my files as a PR-3 encounter as-is. We can also easily upgrade the Pilot rating for the Manservant and toss in an Adaptability autosoft (and possibly a Fuzzy Logic system) to make a squad leader, or easily swap out weapons and Targetting autosofts to make different strike teams. Using an Ares Crusader, Ares Predator-III, a Remington 990, an Ares Alpha, or a Fichetti Pain Inducer are all valid and equally dangerous setups.

The plausibility of such a drone in any quasi-corporate setting is this: it is much cheaper to outfit or replace one of these drones than it is to train a metahuman for the same job. It also does not require pay, only upkeep, and there are no medical costs if it becomes damaged - just a repair bill.

Now let's try something a little more advanced: Glitch.



The sensors I've left blank so you can fill them yourself and tailor them to your own playstyle, although I'd highly suggest getting a tricked out microphone, a tricked out camera, and a R4 Ultrawideband Radar.

This drone is capable of hacking on its own, and with a R3 Adaptability autosoft has 15-18 dice to function autonomously, it'll be able to follow your commands and hack for you, as well as load and unload its autosofts/programs as the situation requires. With a skill of 6 in four of the five major hacking skills, and using some of the Software Suites from above, you're looking at a personal hacking device that rivals the most trained professionals the Sixth World has seen. If you add a R4 Electronic Warfare autosoft, Glitch will also be able to jam (assuming he has access to a jammer), intercept signals, and decrypt things as well.

In my personal opinion, Glitch is a worthy (though expensive) alternative to your everyday commlink. Vehicles and drones are allowed to do whatever they like, just like a normal matrix user, and with the high level of autonomy available with such little effort (but large bank account) they can replace the group's hacker (or at least give him a huge helping hand). The possibilities are extremely varied, and are basically only limited by your imagination (and again, your character's cash).

Nearly every character should be able to afford at least a basic drone. For example, a Renraku Manservant-III (man I love those things) with Fuzzy Logic and one Turbocharger, an Adaptability autosoft, and a handfull of other 'softs to your liking has a huge amount of versatile potential. He can be a mechanic/armorer, taking care of your items back at your base of operations (using the Mechanic/Armorer autosofts); he can be your driver, taking you wherever you want to go (after he loads the proper Maneuver Autosofts); and he could also be an additional gun on the battlefield (with Clearsight, Defense, and Targetting 'softs). And all of that is available for barely over 10,000 nuyen - cheap change in chargen and not that much on the streets.

AI PCs should also look at some of these builds for ideas. Renraku Manservants are really solid choices for a body out and about - they are extremely cheap, and their "-" availability means they are ubiquitous, two things important to 'runners. The Bust-a-Move is a cheaper drone and is much more overlooked alternative. An LEBD-1 can provide air support for a team, but brings more attention to the events (it's a restricted police drone - use at your own risk). The MCT Nissan and C-D Dalmatian are also good alternatives for air support, and they're not exactly expensive and have the benefit of being street legal.

I'll leave you guys with this one thought: the idea of a stock cyclopse monocycle hacking someone's commlink. As long as you upload the proper programs and the Pilot gets enough hits on its Rating + Response, it is absolutely possible. I bet you'll never look at a car the same way again.


End

So have I missed some things, or are the above more or less true? Discuss.

EDIT: Edited for compliance to rules for stock modifications.

EDIT #2: Updated for increased cost of autosofts, as per SR4A.

Is there a rule on removing stock equipment for additional slots? Seems broken if you can remove walker mode for two, add restricted for 4 more and then add walker back in for two.

This is basically a good leveraging of the rules and all GMs and players should be aware of the options. Corp Sec Manservant Army? Better hope your GM lets you roll a Gungan.

meh. if your GM is that spineless, you may as well just ask him for a drone with unlimited slots to begin with.

Spineless? This is perfectly within the realm of the rules. It looks to me like someone just doesn't like how a rule is written. Check out Removing a Modification, page 129 Arsenal.

Thats in reference to after market modification.

To see the rules pertaining to standard upgrades, go to page 107, Standard upgrades and you will see this:

Removing a standard upgrade does not
provide additional modification slots.

Interesting post though.

Ahh, they put that gem of info on a different page. So with Glitch you can safely remove Improved Sensor Array and Chemical Protection and be fine.

You forget the official rule number one: The GM has the final say over all player actions.
Only a spineless GM allows insane combinations like limited maneuverability + a new propulsion system.

exactly my point.

if your GM is spineless enough to let you get away with such blatant abuse of the rules (whether or not that's how they're written), well, there's no point in being subtle about how you blatantly abuse the rules.

it's not the blatantly abusive stuff that worries me when it comes to RAW... it's the stuff that isn't immediately obvious until after it's already come into play. as soon as you show your limited mobility shenanigans to a GM, the GM will likely tell you no, because it is immediately obvious that isn't how the rule is supposed to work.

the removal of standard modifications, on the other hand, is much more worrying, in my opinion... this is something that a GM would look at, agree it is reasonable, and then suddenly have people removing the wheeled 'mod' from their car before installing some other propulsion method, or taking away extra entry/exit points for bonus mods, or taking off default armor before installing the new armor. clearly, many vehicles have these mods inherently, and that's the kind of thing that worries me. because a reasonable GM might not consider all the implications of removing standard modifications, but will be able to spot the absurdity of limited mobility combined with a mod that grants mobility on a casual inspection.

On the subject of existing mods, what if a mod was modified but not removed?

More specific example using a weapon mount that is stock with some vehicles and drones, External Visibility & Turret Flexibility & Remote Control. The scenario involves changing Turret Flexibility to Flexible Flexibility (-2 mod slot difference) while also changing the External Visibility to either Internal Visibility or Concealed Visibility (+2 or +3 mod slot difference). Would this constitute removing the existing mod for the new (3 or 4 slots), or something where you merely pay the difference in mod slots (0 or 1)?

Same can potentially be said for other mods that might come standard, like Amenities, Personal Armor, Passenger Protection, and Rigger Cocoon, and can be upgraded. Unless I've missed it somewhere, there's no RAW for changing and not removing existing equipment like this.

It amuses me how much venom Jaid and Sengir have for a simple rule as presented in a book. Less QQ, more PewPew people. Just because a player figured this out doesn't mean a GM can't use it too.

That aside, I don't see a problem with that at all. Just make sure you comply with the page 107 Hidden Rule about stock mods.

Removing Standard Upgrades does not provide additional slots by RAW, see the Standard Upgrades entry at the beginning of the vehicle listing.

In theory, you don't mod the weapon mount but tear it out and put in a new one. But most GMs will probably allow the latter option, with the usual restriction that you cannot gain extra slots from removing standard equipment.


@Neraph: We are just pointing out that you missed the most important rule: The GM has the final say on everything, even if the rules do not specifically disallow backstabbing with a siege wepaon.

That would only work for incremental mod like signature masking, mostly - Special Machinery allows for that too.

Of course I'd expect no bonus slots for degrading a weapon mount. Just in part wondering what the consensus was around here about changing the turret itself. To me it seems silly that if you try to take a stock mod and change it a little to reduce its profile, or maybe even improve upon it (like the Thundercloud Morgan, upping its fixed mount to a flexible or even turret mount, or the Ford Canada Buffalo if you improve upon the amenities) and potentially pay out the rectum in the slots.

Sounds like it's more up to the GM then, how the upgrades of standard mods are done.

I will shamelessly put forward my little thoughts on drones.

Vehicle And Drones - New models from old.

This rule is always at the fore of any discussion, and often the last resort of people who do not like an idea. Since it is the first rule that is read, it is assumed this rule is known by all, and any further discussion is about the rules that follow it.

It's like Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris holds all of the Guinness World Records - the people in the books are simply the ones that came closest.

We ignore the Rule 0 because we understand that it does now and always will take precedence. This does not mean we ignore it completely; this simply means we acknowledge its existance but set it aside in pursuit of the interesting and comical things allowed purely from a RAW perspective.

Also, I believe that this game (Shadowrun) is a game of rules, and I like to play by the rules. Unless something makes absolutely no sense at all (like not allowing spirits to materialize/possess/inhabit, since those powers are Physical and you can't use Physical powers on the Astral), I usually allow it because that is how the rules of this game are designed.

EDIT: Also, as I've said before, invoking Rule 0 is the last defense of an unimaginative and inflexible GM. Having to resort to Rule 0 is bad GMing, because it represents your lack of creativity and your ability to adapt to things your players figure out that you do not.

Wether you like it or not, wether it is in the rules or not, it IS abusing the system and as a GM, it is his duty to prevent system abuse. It just usually makes the game not fun for everybody but the abusing player.
Still, it's a nice hole you found.

Like a no-class-levels ECL 20 D&D character that on average can punk 4 CR 20 dragons by himself? The last attack on the fourth statistically knocks him unconscious due to the 0HP rule, but he has regeneration.

Of course, the character is unplayable as a PC due to being all kinds of chaotic evil. If it was a hostile NPC...I'd have to calculate its CR, because it simply is that much more powerful than it should be (it was an exercise in "how many templates can I stack?"). It would however be a GM's nightmare: almost nothing would pose it a challenge.

Enforcing rule 0 is the principal duty of a good GM. Shadowrun is not MtG, where you have 171 pages of Comprehensive Rules to adress every bizarre corner case of the rules, it gives you a set of rules to cover 90% of all situations and the rest is up to the GM. So yeah, the rules don't explicitly say "no MANPADs in your fingertip compartment", because the Devs obviously assumed that no sane GM will ever allow it.

so neraph, what you're saying is that there is nothing implausible about removing the engine from a vehicle, then re-installing it into that vehicle, and having more space? nothing about that strikes you as being unusual or odd? nothing seems suspect?

in any case, i find it strange that your opinion is that rule 0 is so desperately to be avoided. the whole reason we have a person running the game is because of the importance of rule 0. rule 0 is what makes pen and paper RPGs so much more flexible than any CRPG. indeed, the vast majority of what a GM does is rule 0. there is no rule defining what shadowruns the team gets offered. there is no rule defining what the team should get paid. there is no rule telling you whether a Mr Johnson is legit or not. there is no rule telling you what defenses the target of your shadowrun has.

when it all comes down to it, rule 0 is invoked almost constantly, and actually forms the basis of pen and paper roleplaying games.

the GM is there to tell the rules to shut up whenever the rules say to do something stupid. in this case, the rules tell you that you can remove the wheels and engine from a car, put them back on, and somehow you end up being able to fit extra stuff in just from doing that. tell you what, go ahead and try this with something (your car, if you own one, is probably more expensive than you're comfortable risking, so feel free to use something else). open it up, remove a piece, stick that same piece back in, and then see if the interior of whatever you opened up somehow becomes larger than it was before.

No, I find nothing odd about removing the engine, wheels, and axles and making a walker mode drone. Or removing most of the moving parts, attaching a balloon with gas inside, and a small propeller on the butt of the drone. Or removing the legs and sticking some tank treads on.


I could have sworn that there was a rule somewhere that stated you needed at least 1 HD... For instance, putting the Monster of Legend template onto an orc is only going to work if that orc has at least 1 class level, since it has no racial HD. You need at least 1 HD otherwise the character can't exist.


This. This is the business I'm in. That was the main point of this, and to provide some things to think about for other players/GMs out there, just like my other thread about spirits.

EDIT: I find it interesting that out of that whole thing the biggest problem you have is using Limited Maneuverability to free up slots, then tacking a movement mode back on. No word on the Software Suit Autosofts or anything..

Neraph...
How to put this... limited maneuverability REMOVES the engines/motors and transmission. That's how they get the extra mod space.

Changing a wheeled vehicle to a walker means you change the drivetrain but you keep the motors and engines etc..

Sorry, while it's nifty in concept "Limited Maneuverability" is on it's face incompatible w/ "Walker Mode". In what way does a walker drone have 'limited maneuverability' and unable to move itself under it's own power?! Maybe if I put puppet strings on it and move it that way (it has the legs now w/ the mod but no motive system to move them... so hell that actually make sense).

Even you must admit that this reading makes sense under strict RAW. If it has both mods it is subject to both mods text.
Limited maneuverability... drones speed/accel go to 0 as it's motive systems are removed. "A drone w/ limited maneuverability DOES NOT MOVE ON IT"S OWN" As long as you keep that mod (minidrones), that drone does not move on it's own, even if you give it another mod.
Walker mode: Speed and Acceleration are halved round down... well half of 0 is still 0! It's immobile.. so even it's handling +1 is questionable.

IE: limited maneuverability iBall.... modification lighter than air... okay it inflates a weather balloon and goes where the wind takes it.



As far as your comments about Rule0.. I would only agree with you in a setting like Battletech or some other wargame where the rules are very cut and dried, and there's very little room for GM to change things. The rules in that sense are designed to arbitrate a contest between two closely matched opponents fairly w/o the presence of a GM.

RPG's tend to be a completely different animal. In this we have a cooperative game. Not only that, but the rules actively EXPECT the GM to arbitrate things and give players far more leeway to operate in, as there's expected to be a human brain saying.. okay now you're just being silly.

IIRC, there's an old saying, "The law is the last refuge of the scoundrel."


At best it's an interesting attempt to game the construction rules.

Though then you hit the other problems... software suites and the like. Generally that's the kind of thing only a GM should construct for his game world. Just like cyberware suites and the like, these aren't custom built for the runner but reflect product offerings for sale to people w/ money and who need it in quantity.

Well, the first post is still wrong, anyway.

Not that it matters, anyway: People always miss that the normal slot count is just before overmod rules apply.

Half a hit die, really. Check out some of the smaller animals.
In any case said character does have ten hit dice, just no class levels. Even at 10 hit dice it has more hit points than a 22 HD dragon, yay Con Mod. A third of its stats are over 40, half of them are under 10. Before magic items.

Why would you want such a monstrosity?

Keep the Faith

Like I said, the character is unplayable. My goal was to find a character who couldn't die. Due to the combination of templates it can only take subdual damage and has will and fort saves over 25 (all Death spells use one or the other and even a 9th level spell has a DC of 19 + [stat] + [mod] where [mod] is typically 4 or less, so in order to be capable of failing* [stat] would need to be +7 or a 24)

*Excluding natural 1s, which IIRC, he can't even fail Fort saves on those. Steadfast Determination is <3 especially when your wisdom is 4.

This is interesting, because that's not really how the rules actually work. You add the Limited Maneuverability modification onto a dron, gaining 4 mod slots. The drone can no longer move on its own, but its movement methods are not gone - IE: it still has acceleration and speed attributes. All you're doing is then taking a drone that has the Limited Maneuverability modification and adding on another modification that creates a movement mode, like Walker Mode or Lighter Than Air. This does not violate the rules, and the new form of movement changes the acceleration stat, allowing the drone to move once again.


This is simply wrong; an RPG is simply a wargame with one team versus the GM with a focus on "feelings."


There are many things wrong with your closing statements.

1) It is more than simply an "interesting attempt to game the construction rules" - it actually is using the construction rules to build something that should be allowed in games at any table. The reason it should be allowed is because it conforms to the rules as they are written.

2) Software Suites and Cyberware Suites are encouraged to be designed by GMs, but can you show me a rule that states the players cannot have them custom-made? They can have weapons and armor custom-made for them, so why not Cyberware and Software Suites?

3) The entire purpose of your closing statements was designed to undermine what I have posted. It was an attempt to discredit what I found, which is perfectly legal under the rules of the game. Either you're ignorant of the rules (even though I quoted pages and rules where neccessary) or you are purposefully attempting to convince people that the things I have posted are not in compliance with the rules. If it is the former, read my post again. If it is the latter, I do not appreciate that.


I edited the original post to reflect the rules.

Huh?
It still has

Well, if that is your interpretation of RPGs then good luck with it.



That might be because your interpretations make absolutely non sense to roleplayers.

Sorry, but if you count the slots used they are correct. I'll fix that.


What part of "this is absolutely correct, as the rules the way they are written" is so hard to understand? And I've quoted the rules. So you need to either A) quote some rules to show how I can't do this (as someone did to show you can't get slots back for removing stock mods), or B) just say that you'd house-rule this not to work in your games (which is within your rights and I can't argue with).

Probably because it's not absolutely correct and not the way it's written Neraph.

I don't post to convince you, but to give other players/GM's ammunition to use against powergamer/rules lawyers like you since you saw fit to reduce yourself to ad hominems.



Anyhow, to reiterate since you don't seem to realize... yes, limited maneuverability says exactly that "A DRONE with LIMITED MANEUVERABILITY DOES NOT MOVE ON IT"S OWN"... no matter what mods you add after adding it.
There is no room for wiggle room in there, so long as the mod is in place it's like a kid in a wagon... you can give him a push and he can turn it left or right, but when it stops it stops until you give it another push.

I'll reiterate a classic example... put limited maneuverability on a drone, then give it lighter than air. Okay now yes it gains a new movement method... it can float like a balloon, but it has no control where it goes, it goes where the wind and barometer pushes it. Limited maneuverability means it no longer gets the propulsion means it would normally get to push itself around while airborne. IF the GM is feeling generous, maybe it has altitude control (like a hot air balloon). You put legs on it, and we'll name it Punch (and Judy) and look for a spot to connect the wires.



Sidenote: was anyone else disappointed they didn't kit out all the cybersuites on page31 of augmentation? Only a handfull of them.


My point is again... Augmentation...
"the gamemaster should always keep in mind that cyberware suites—even those of highgrades— are not designed to a runner’s needs, but are standardized packages the cyberware manufacturer develops with a potential consumer in mind, be they corporate employees or the customers off the street."

Who exactly are you building the suite for? WHO is paying the R&D COSTS!!! Remember development costs are not cheap. How many guinea pigs you need to implant before you get a final working model ready for the mass market? (that's a lot of cyber costs)

Yes custom made is possible. Even by the runners, but they better be ready to shell out hundred thousands if not millions of nuyen on development. (at which point they're probably better just buying the higher grade part off the shelf).


The same would go for software suites... and software bundles. (why bundle... when we can put every program at rating 6 in a single software suite and run them all at once! for a single program slot).

I'd like you to show me where I commited an Ad Hominem.


Ok, so imagine this: You take a drone and put on Limited Maneuverability. Six months later you add Walker Mode. Does that walker mode take 6 slots? Do you have to get rid of Limited Maneuverability to put on Walker Mode?

What I'm saying is you certainly make intellectual sense... to a point. There are other situations where your interpretation of these rules simply fails to retain that intellectual sense. In other words, you appear to be right, but you are in fact wrong.


I'd like to see a rule for R&D costs. That "hundreds of thousands if not millions" is pure conjecture. Keep in mind that one of the Software Suites was actually created by a runner. They obviously do not cost thousands of nuyen to create.

EDIT: As a side note, I actually am coming to like the term "rules lawyer". It actually ends up proving just that - what I am providing here is absolutely according to the rules of the game. I think anyone who actually plays a game would want to play the game according to the rules.

What part of "nobody gives a shit about the rules if following them leads to absurd situations" is so hard to get?

As myself and several others have pointed out, rules in RPGs are not the sacrosanct and definite answer to all questions as in other systems. They are meant as guidelines to create a game world, often left intentionally vague, and GMs are actively encouraged to change rules and stack the deck as they see fit and as it suits their campaign.


Extrapolating a definite "but there is no rule against it" from such vague and arbitrary rules is a clear fallacy, like the museum guard who says that the dinosaur skeleton is 65 million years, three months and two days old (because it was 65 million old when he started working there three months and two day ago).

Think about it for a minute, you're playing a game where you are a bear-shape shifter troll firing a panther cannon one handed at a dragon.

And you're worried about "absurd situations"?

At least inside the game world there is nothing wrong with it. Shapeshifters, trolls and dragons exist. But stuff like backstabbing someone with a ballista does not make any more sense in character than it does in real life.

The point of this thread--and others like it--is that the rules sometimes don't make sense. Here's something you can do with the rules as written, even if its not 100% logical.

Your response has been to state that it isn't 100% logical. No shit.

Thank you.

Besides, the example I gave does not include the option that has your panties in a twist, and it was once sentence (possibly two, I forget exactly and don't care enough to check it - the result is the same either way) out of paragraphs of text.

Of course, the actual point of this thread was to aid players or GMs that end up having lots of cash and no hacker to get around things that would require a hacker. GMs can use the Drone Soldier as effective guards as well.

okay, sure, let's imagine that.

day 1, you rip out all the stuff that provides your drone with the ability to power itself. the engine, the fuel tank, the whole nine yards, and now you have a brand new soap-box derby car (probably one that doesn't fit within the allowed rules of soap-box derbies, but whatever) with lots of room under the hood to put whatever you feel like. though of course, it should be noted that since you're going to have to travel around Fred Flintstone style you'll want to keep it light.

day 181 (assuming 30 day months for the sake of convenience) you decide that you don't want a car that can only coast downhill anymore (it is supposed to be able to steer, so presumably the steering is still in there). so you decide you're going to put legs into it. now then, can you just pull off the tires and put legs in their place, change the steering to work with the legs, and expect to go anywhere? or, do you have to go back under the head, remove whatever it is that you put in there (possibly a foot-massage machine and an energy drink dispenser), and add the engine, fuel tank, etc back in.

it costs 2 slots to modify a wheeled vehicle to have legs instead. it doesn't magically take less slots just because you first ripped out all the parts you're going to modify and put back in.

This is just proof that you people don't read the rules. The Limited Maneuverability option is only for minidrones - things that are 10-25 cm big. Also, I would like to point out the obvious: the Walker Mode modification costs 2 slots. It does not cost a vehicle 2 slots for converting it from wheeled to walker, it simply costs 2 slots.

How would you handle putting Walker Mode on an i-Ball? Would that cost 2 slots or 6? They come stock with Limited Maneuverability.

No. It costs the groundcraft 2 slots to swap out the previous transport mechanism with legs.

Which drones with limited maneuverability don't have.

So I ask again - how many slots would it cost to give Walker Mode to an i-Ball that comes stock with Limited Maneuverability?

There's an easy answer - exactly how many the book says; two. And if it works for stock, why not for modded as well?

Which is: It still can't move on it's own by RAW, even though it now has legs. Also keep in mind that while removing Standard Upgrades won't get you additional Slots, the rules don't state that removing them can't cost Slots.

Basically, you just wasted 2 Slots. Until you pony up the 4 additional ones to remove Limited Maneuverability.

That's funny because it has a listed acceleration and speed, which implies it can in fact move under its own power. Also, the text for Limited Maneuverability states it can move itself as well (minor adjustments and whatnot, but still not complete immovability).

So try that again please.

Actually, Limited Maneuverability explicitly states that the vehicle can't move on it's own, just steer:

So, no – no problem here: The description of the iBall isn't contradicted, the "roll on it's own" part just got reduced to steering capability… which is rolling, too.

Instead of a drone that you can roll into a room, you now got a drone that you can push and have it stagger around until it lost all momentum… of course, it now can handle rougher terrain.

Expert dodging of the matter at hand.


Would you be so kind as to actually give a hard rule stating you have to remove this in order to have the item move?

As long as a vehicle as the Limited Maneuverability modification, the rules for it apply as per RAW. Those rules, already provided, explicitly state: "A drone with limited maneuverability does not move on its own"

You want it to move on it's own? Not possible as long it has the Limited Maneuverability modification, no matter what other modifications you might add.
Thus, you need to remove it, thus losing the slot-benefit of it as well – which is RAW even for Standard Upgrades, since the rules only prohibt gaining slots through removal of Standard Upgrades.

And the point of my discussion with Neraph is his claim that GMs should just accept all nonsense if it's RAW (or more precisely, if RAW does not explicitly forbid it).

so pretend the person doing the modding is a pixie. no significant change to the situation, really. you still haven't demonstrated that by ripping out all the components that let the drone move under its own power to make more room for other stuff, you can then simply replace the tires with legs, tweak the steering, and now the legs magically animate themselves to make the drone walk around. for someone who's accusing others of dodging the argument, you're not doing so good.

as for whether it's the cost of converting or not, i refer you to which indicates quite clearly that you are in fact converting it from one thing to another.

you replace the transport mechanism, the drone is now a walker. there is nothing here detailing that it gains the ability to move under its own power. there is nothing detailing that this replaces the engine or any of the other needed components. merely that the drone becomes a walker. in the case of a drone with limited mobility, it will become a walker with limited mobility... congratulations, you've invented the slinky drone. and as long as all you need it to do is go down stairs after being provided an initial external impetus, it can do that quite well. but it isn't going to suddenly start walking down the road.

That quote you provided can actually be used for my gain as well. If you completely swap out everything for the motors that make a walker, wouldn't that give walker to something that did not have it beforehand?

But here's the important point: that sentence we've been arguing for the last two and a half paegs was one (possibly two) sentences out of a huge post. Ignore it if you want. What about the rest of it? What about the Drone Soldier as potential security rather than metahumans? Or Glitch? Any other problems with him?

so wait... you're asking us whether we think drones could be used in shadowrun instead of human guards? ummm.... yes. it's kinda been in the setting for a long, long time. most likely as night guards, because during the day you likely have to allow certain people through, and you don't want to gun down your lead researcher just because he forgot his ID card today. but sure, drones are frequently used to supplement or entirely replace security guards. especially drone networks with a spider in charge.