To effectively split dice pools, ...and infinitives. Options

[MikeKozar]

I'm working on a gunfighter concept. I'd like to try two automatic weapons, say twin custom machine pistols, used together. I'm pretty well versed in the rules for burst fire from my drones, but they generally stick with one weapon at a time. I was hoping somebody could check my math:

Firing a Custom Machine Pistol w/ Gas Vent 3, Personalized Grip should be a Recoil Compensation of 4. Firing a Long Burst should be a -5, reduced to -1 by Recoil Compensation. If I wanted to fire a second CMP left handed, I would split the pool and deduct 2 for using an off-handed weapon, adding in the -1 for recoil on that weapon, so I would roll the first part of my pool at -1 and the second part at -3. That should effectively let me fire two Long Bursts in a single Simple Action.

If that's right, then I should be able to finish off the IP by firing a Short Burst from each weapon at an additional recoil penalty of -3, giving myself a split pool at -4 and -6.

Those penalties seem pretty light. Anybody see where I'm going wrong?

[Caadium]

The recoil affects both hands. So using 2 of the weapons described above you would have -1 for the first action, and -9 for the second action (-5 for first long burst, -6 for second long burst, -2 for off-handed +4 for Recoil Comp).

[Karoline]

The recoil affects both hands. So using 2 of the weapons described above you would have -1 for the first action, and -9 for the second action (-5 for first long burst, -6 for second long burst, -2 for off-handed +4 for Recoil Comp).

Each gun has its own recoil comp though, so it should apply to each weapon separately. So would be -1 for the first action, then -5 for the second (-1 from uncompensated recoil from the first gun, -2 from uncompensated recoil from the second gun, and -2 for off-hand)

[Brol_The_Mighty]

I believe that its just uncompensated recoil that stacks.

[Caadium]

Each gun has its own recoil comp though, so it should apply to each weapon separately. So would be -1 for the first action, then -5 for the second (-1 from uncompensated recoil from the first gun, -2 from uncompensated recoil from the second gun, and -2 for off-hand)

Sorry, you are correct. The other thing that could affect the shots would be a -2 if the second was at a different target.

I'd also suggest looking at Ambidextrous to remove that -2 for the second burst. Also, consider using the second long burst as a wide burst. The -5 to defenders dice can offest the -5 to your attack pool.

Edit: Typo corrected

[X-Kalibur]

Give yourself cyber forearms, install cyberarm gyromounts. You now remove an additional 3 recoil from each weapon.

[Karoline]

Sorry, you are correct. The other thing that could affect the shots would be a -2 if the second was at a different target.

I'd also suggest looking at Ambidextrous to remove that -2 for the second burst. Also, consider using the second long burst as a long burst. The -5 to defenders dice can offest the -5 to your attack pool.

You mean a wide burst I'm guessing?

Also consider grabbing another RC modification. Not sure what you could get off the top of my head, but I know you could squeeze on at least 1 more point which would help alot.

[Udoshi]

Uncompensated recoil from one gun affects the others you're dual wielding, yes.

[crizh]

Cyberarm Gyromount has already been mentioned, might I also pimp out the FN-P93 Praetor?

You get an untyped point of free RC and can cheaply buy Electronic Firing without wasting any mod slots.

If you can get your STR up to 14 you can get some great RC from the optional rules in Arsenal...

[Karoline]

If you can get your STR up to 14 you can get some great RC from the optional rules in Arsenal...

That's a really tall order, even for a troll.

[crizh]

That's a really tall order, even for a troll.

It's not undo-able, an Orc with Muscle Augmentation 4 and military armour with the full Str upgrade can get there.

You don't need that much really but it is a nice break point. It gets you 3 points of RC which doesn't get better until Str 18 which is pretty much impossible.

You are getting 1 point of RC from Str 6 though and 2 from Str 10 which is probably the sweet spot as far as resources are concerned.

[Karoline]

You are getting 1 point of RC from Str 6 though and 2 from Str 10 which is probably the sweet spot as far as resources are concerned.

6 points is very doable for orcs, almost automatic for trolls, and 10s are fairly doable with a troll, but beyond that you have to start getting really out there. Military armor is Forbidden, so that isn't an entirely reasonable option.

[Udoshi]

You mean a wide burst I'm guessing?

Also consider grabbing another RC modification. Not sure what you could get off the top of my head, but I know you could squeeze on at least 1 more point which would help alot.

Machine pistols are surprisingly good if you mix mods and accessories.
Pistols(including machine pistols) have a Top and a Barrel mount.

Gasvent 3: Barrel or Mod
External Smargun: Top, Under, or internal mod.

Mod, underbarrel weight. 1 point of recoil comp. 2 slots.
Mod, auto-adjusting underbarrel weight. 1 point of comp on the first shot, 2 on the second, and 2 pots if in FA mode. 4 slots.
The above two do not stack with bipods, foregrips, gyromounts, slings, tripods or underbarrel weight accessory(1RC when fullburst, like heavy barrel)
Mod, personalized grip. 1 RC. Cheap. 1 slot. Doesn't stack with electronic firing.
Mod, electronic firing. 1 RC, some other stuff. Expensive. 1 slot. Doesn't stack with persgrip.
Mod, firing selection change, BF->FA is a small mod. 1 slot.
Mod, pilot upgrade. Its expensive, costs no slots, but has a hidden benefit. Pistols become minidrones(body1), longarms are small(body2). *See below for more info.
Mod, gasvent 2, 1 slot. Gasvent 3 is 2 slots.
If you're using optional arsenal rules, a strength of six nets you another point of RC.

With that in mind, you ought to be able to give any machine pistol 4-5 points of recoil compensation, easy. The fact that they can take gasvents is a huge bonus. Now take a look here:
Fully auto mode(4a 154): Characters can use a weapon in full-auto mode to fire bursts, as noted above, each taking a simple action.(the Burst Fire rules are right above that, which means FA weapons can fire 3round bursts). Full-auto weapons can also be used to fire long bursts with a simple action or full bursts with a complex action.

Moving on and checking out the machine pistol options, we have: (i am not counting the PPSK4 because it can't take accessories and has an absurd availability)
Ares crusader. Clip of 40. Gas-vent 2.
FN 5-7. Clip of 20. Free point of manufacturer-fu RC.
Black scorpion. Clip of 35. Free folding stock. Boo.
Steyr TMP. No freebies. Bah. Clip of 30, free FA, and burst fire. Ooh.

This leads to:

The 'And you thought this was a bad gun' TMP.
Steyr TMP. 600
Barrelmount, gasvent 3 400.
Topmount, External Smartgun, 400. It can take vision accessories too, so..
+Vision Magnification, 100.
Mod, underbarrel auto-adjusting weight. 150
30 stick and shock rounds, 240
=1890 Nuyen. Roll in FA mode always, fire six-bullet long bursts, enjoy no recoil.
Use your last two mod slots for an additional clip, maybe, so you don't have to waste expensive ammo if you don't need it.


*Pilot Upgrade shenanigans: A weapon with a pilot upgrade is equipped with a customized pilot program, and becomes a drone in all respects(though with he downside of immovability unless you also install a propulsion system). Pistols become minidrones(body1, armor 1, sensor 1), Longarms become small drones(body 2 , armor 2, sensor 2.). Minor freebie, your Gun now has sensor capacity, if you absolutely need to cram more vision mods like magnification onto it.
Arsenal 105: This passage deals with the oddities of putting huge guns on small vehicles and ignoring recoil because its a vehicle. It also gives vehicles RC = their body.
So yes. a pilot upgrade 1 on your smartgun gives you 'free' recoil compensation. If your GM doesn't tell you that its retarded. (I was trying to find the rule in the big core book that says vehicle weapons don't suffer recoil at -all-, which is way worse, and way stupider, and gave up after a few minutes of searching. If someone has a page number for that, please tell me.)

[Karoline]

Arsenal 105: This passage deals with the oddities of putting huge guns on small vehicles and ignoring recoil because its a vehicle. It also gives vehicles RC = their body.
So yes. a pilot upgrade 1 on your smartgun gives you 'free' recoil compensation. If your GM doesn't tell you that its retarded. (I was trying to find the rule in the big core book that says vehicle weapons don't suffer recoil at -all-, which is way worse, and way stupider, and gave up after a few minutes of searching. If someone has a page number for that, please tell me.)

Cool setup. I should point out though that it talks about weapons which are mounted on a vehicle, not vehicles which are weapons. And it also says that the standard is to allow vehicle mounted weapons no recoil, and that you should only worry about RC = body if the weapon is exceedingly huge for the vehicle on which it is mounted.

Also, you can't use the auto-adjusting weight on pistols, so you'll have to change your setup a bit.

[Udoshi]

Cool setup. I should point out though that it talks about weapons which are mounted on a vehicle, not vehicles which are weapons. And it also says that the standard is to allow vehicle mounted weapons no recoil, and that you should only worry about RC = body if the weapon is exceedingly huge for the vehicle on which it is mounted.

Also, you can't use the auto-adjusting weight on pistols, so you'll have to change your setup a bit.

I would say you can, because the rules makes a distinction between pistols, machine pistols, and smg's. Within the rules, its a seperate class of weapon. You can't put gasvents in pistols either - but you can on machine pistols.

[Karoline]

I would say you can, because the rules makes a distinction between pistols, machine pistols, and smg's. Within the rules, its a seperate class of weapon. You can't put gasvents in pistols either - but you can on machine pistols.

Well, actually it groups them into light pistols, heavy pistols, and machine pistols, and all three fall under the 'pistols' skill, so I'd think that anything that applies to 'pistols' applies to all three categories unless singled out.

[Udoshi]

Cool setup. I should point out though that it talks about weapons which are mounted on a vehicle, not vehicles which are weapons. And it also says that the standard is to allow vehicle mounted weapons no recoil, and that you should only worry about RC = body if the weapon is exceedingly huge for the vehicle on which it is mounted.

That is another can of worms. A hilarious can of worms, if you were so inclined to try to break the system. Bear with me.

So longarms are small drones, at body 2.
Go over to arsenal's weapon mount section. It is a Standard mod, which means it cannot apply to micro or minidrones. Thankfully, longarms are neither.
Look down to Size. Read a bit in: 'As a general rule, one weapon can be added to a vehicle for every 3 points of body it has, rounded up'. 2/3 is .66 repeating, which rounds up to 1.
Weapons have six modification slots, and pilot upgrade doesn't take any.
Uh oh.
Suddenly, over-barrel recoil-less LMG turret on your shotgun.

[Udoshi]

Well, actually it groups them into light pistols, heavy pistols, and machine pistols, and all three fall under the 'pistols' skill, so I'd think that anything that applies to 'pistols' applies to all three categories unless singled out.

Actually, machine pistols are Automatics, not Pistols. People just don't use them alot because... why use machine pistols when you can have an ingram smartgun? Or an ares alpha? Or even a machine gun. Ignoring the power-weapons of each class, you've still got smgs, assault rifles, and lmg's under the same skill. They're kind of under-rated, which is why i've been looking at making useful builds out of them.

[Karoline]

Actually, machine pistols are Automatics, not Pistols.

Oh, darn, you're right. It's light/heavy... no, wait.. how the heck does it divide them again? Ah, yeah, tasers, SA, hold-out, and revolvers.

Well, I still stand by 'it is called a pistol, and so should be included when a pistol is mentioned'.

Suddenly, over-barrel recoil-less LMG turret on your shotgun.

Well, if you really wanted I could maybe give you a weapon mount on your... weapon, but it wouldn't be recoilless. It'd fall back under the 'RC = body' rule. Of course you'd have to operate it remotely and use your gunnery skill on it, just like any other vehicle mounted weapon.

Still, a fairly simple 'the GM will slap the silly out of you' solution to the problem, though I admit it is fairly well within the rules. They should add a 'but has no vehicle modification slots'. Otherwise I can think of a bunch of cool things you can do with them that wouldn't be quite as blatantly wrong as the LMG weapon mount on your weapon.

[Udoshi]

Still, a fairly simple 'the GM will slap the silly out of you' solution to the problem, though I admit it is fairly well within the rules. They should add a 'but has no vehicle modification slots'. Otherwise I can think of a bunch of cool things you can do with them that wouldn't be quite as blatantly wrong as the LMG weapon mount on your weapon.

What, like put lighter-than-air on it, as many ammo bins as you can, and use the recoil to move your airbag lmg-shotgun turret around the battlefield with burst fire?

And yes. It is silly. Super-silly. I would not allow half the shit I come up with at my own table. But its still fun to come up with it anyway.

[Karoline]

What, like put lighter-than-air on it, as many ammo bins as you can, and use the recoil to move your airbag lmg-shotgun turret around the battlefield with burst fire?

Not quite, but it sounds entertaining.

[Udoshi]

Not quite, but it sounds entertaining.

Now i'm curious - what DID you have in mind?

[Karoline]

Now i'm curious - what DID you have in mind?

Afraid you'll have to wait to find out. Bedtime for me, and likely won't get a chance to post tomorrow unless class is canceled (Totally possible)

[FriendoftheDork]

Oh, darn, you're right. It's light/heavy... no, wait.. how the heck does it divide them again? Ah, yeah, tasers, SA, hold-out, and revolvers.

Well, I still stand by 'it is called a pistol, and so should be included when a pistol is mentioned'.

So sub-machine guns should have the same rules as shotguns? After all, they are both called "guns."

Actually the the auto-adjusting weight specifically cannot be used on "hold-outs and pistols." Notice that a hold-out pistol is indeed also called a pistol and even uses the same skill but is specially noted. Thus it's a fairly safe assumption that the restriction applies to Light Pistols, Heavy Pistols, hold-outs and maybe even Tasers. But not machine pistols.

In any case you could use an underbarrel weight which doesen't work with hold-outs (but presumebly with everything else). The assumption of course is that "doesen't work with x" should be interpreted as the same as "works with everything but x".

Logical enough?

[Saint Sithney]

I actually made an attempted build based around a troll getting 8 short bursts per IP. Trollsakimbo.
He's got two Ares HVARs with 17 RC each (including strength RC applied to both weapons.)
Base DP of 12, so split to 6 for each gun per action. +10 dice for each hand (+6 from Adept powers, +2 Specialization, +1 reflex recorder and +1 from Sideways.)

The -2DP from each additional target really screwed the pooch on this concept. -14DP for the 8th target on top of the -12DP from the second off-hand full burst in the pass, well, that's irreconsilable. Against a single target though, Trolls can shred unholy ass.