I'm working on a gunfighter concept. I'd like to try two automatic weapons, say twin custom machine pistols, used together. I'm pretty well versed in the rules for burst fire from my drones, but they generally stick with one weapon at a time. I was hoping somebody could check my math:

Firing a Custom Machine Pistol w/ Gas Vent 3, Personalized Grip should be a Recoil Compensation of 4. Firing a Long Burst should be a -5, reduced to -1 by Recoil Compensation. If I wanted to fire a second CMP left handed, I would split the pool and deduct 2 for using an off-handed weapon, adding in the -1 for recoil on that weapon, so I would roll the first part of my pool at -1 and the second part at -3. That should effectively let me fire two Long Bursts in a single Simple Action.

If that's right, then I should be able to finish off the IP by firing a Short Burst from each weapon at an additional recoil penalty of -3, giving myself a split pool at -4 and -6.

Those penalties seem pretty light. Anybody see where I'm going wrong?

The recoil affects both hands. So using 2 of the weapons described above you would have -1 for the first action, and -9 for the second action (-5 for first long burst, -6 for second long burst, -2 for off-handed +4 for Recoil Comp).

Each gun has its own recoil comp though, so it should apply to each weapon separately. So would be -1 for the first action, then -5 for the second (-1 from uncompensated recoil from the first gun, -2 from uncompensated recoil from the second gun, and -2 for off-hand)

I believe that its just uncompensated recoil that stacks.

Sorry, you are correct. The other thing that could affect the shots would be a -2 if the second was at a different target.

I'd also suggest looking at Ambidextrous to remove that -2 for the second burst. Also, consider using the second long burst as a wide burst. The -5 to defenders dice can offest the -5 to your attack pool.

Edit: Typo corrected

Give yourself cyber forearms, install cyberarm gyromounts. You now remove an additional 3 recoil from each weapon.

You mean a wide burst I'm guessing?

Also consider grabbing another RC modification. Not sure what you could get off the top of my head, but I know you could squeeze on at least 1 more point which would help alot.

Uncompensated recoil from one gun affects the others you're dual wielding, yes.

Cyberarm Gyromount has already been mentioned, might I also pimp out the FN-P93 Praetor?

You get an untyped point of free RC and can cheaply buy Electronic Firing without wasting any mod slots.

If you can get your STR up to 14 you can get some great RC from the optional rules in Arsenal...

That's a really tall order, even for a troll.

It's not undo-able, an Orc with Muscle Augmentation 4 and military armour with the full Str upgrade can get there.

You don't need that much really but it is a nice break point. It gets you 3 points of RC which doesn't get better until Str 18 which is pretty much impossible.

You are getting 1 point of RC from Str 6 though and 2 from Str 10 which is probably the sweet spot as far as resources are concerned.

6 points is very doable for orcs, almost automatic for trolls, and 10s are fairly doable with a troll, but beyond that you have to start getting really out there. Military armor is Forbidden, so that isn't an entirely reasonable option.

Machine pistols are surprisingly good if you mix mods and accessories.
Pistols(including machine pistols) have a Top and a Barrel mount.

Gasvent 3: Barrel or Mod
External Smargun: Top, Under, or internal mod.

Mod, underbarrel weight. 1 point of recoil comp. 2 slots.
Mod, auto-adjusting underbarrel weight. 1 point of comp on the first shot, 2 on the second, and 2 pots if in FA mode. 4 slots.
The above two do not stack with bipods, foregrips, gyromounts, slings, tripods or underbarrel weight accessory(1RC when fullburst, like heavy barrel)
Mod, personalized grip. 1 RC. Cheap. 1 slot. Doesn't stack with electronic firing.
Mod, electronic firing. 1 RC, some other stuff. Expensive. 1 slot. Doesn't stack with persgrip.
Mod, firing selection change, BF->FA is a small mod. 1 slot.
Mod, pilot upgrade. Its expensive, costs no slots, but has a hidden benefit. Pistols become minidrones(body1), longarms are small(body2). *See below for more info.
Mod, gasvent 2, 1 slot. Gasvent 3 is 2 slots.
If you're using optional arsenal rules, a strength of six nets you another point of RC.

With that in mind, you ought to be able to give any machine pistol 4-5 points of recoil compensation, easy. The fact that they can take gasvents is a huge bonus. Now take a look here:
Fully auto mode(4a 154): Characters can use a weapon in full-auto mode to fire bursts, as noted above, each taking a simple action.(the Burst Fire rules are right above that, which means FA weapons can fire 3round bursts). Full-auto weapons can also be used to fire long bursts with a simple action or full bursts with a complex action.

Moving on and checking out the machine pistol options, we have: (i am not counting the PPSK4 because it can't take accessories and has an absurd availability)
Ares crusader. Clip of 40. Gas-vent 2.
FN 5-7. Clip of 20. Free point of manufacturer-fu RC.
Black scorpion. Clip of 35. Free folding stock. Boo.
Steyr TMP. No freebies. Bah. Clip of 30, free FA, and burst fire. Ooh.

This leads to:

The 'And you thought this was a bad gun' TMP.
Steyr TMP. 600
Barrelmount, gasvent 3 400.
Topmount, External Smartgun, 400. It can take vision accessories too, so..
+Vision Magnification, 100.
Mod, underbarrel auto-adjusting weight. 150
30 stick and shock rounds, 240
=1890 Nuyen. Roll in FA mode always, fire six-bullet long bursts, enjoy no recoil.
Use your last two mod slots for an additional clip, maybe, so you don't have to waste expensive ammo if you don't need it.


*Pilot Upgrade shenanigans: A weapon with a pilot upgrade is equipped with a customized pilot program, and becomes a drone in all respects(though with he downside of immovability unless you also install a propulsion system). Pistols become minidrones(body1, armor 1, sensor 1), Longarms become small drones(body 2 , armor 2, sensor 2.). Minor freebie, your Gun now has sensor capacity, if you absolutely need to cram more vision mods like magnification onto it.
Arsenal 105: This passage deals with the oddities of putting huge guns on small vehicles and ignoring recoil because its a vehicle. It also gives vehicles RC = their body.
So yes. a pilot upgrade 1 on your smartgun gives you 'free' recoil compensation. If your GM doesn't tell you that its retarded. (I was trying to find the rule in the big core book that says vehicle weapons don't suffer recoil at -all-, which is way worse, and way stupider, and gave up after a few minutes of searching. If someone has a page number for that, please tell me.)

Cool setup. I should point out though that it talks about weapons which are mounted on a vehicle, not vehicles which are weapons. And it also says that the standard is to allow vehicle mounted weapons no recoil, and that you should only worry about RC = body if the weapon is exceedingly huge for the vehicle on which it is mounted.

Also, you can't use the auto-adjusting weight on pistols, so you'll have to change your setup a bit.

I would say you can, because the rules makes a distinction between pistols, machine pistols, and smg's. Within the rules, its a seperate class of weapon. You can't put gasvents in pistols either - but you can on machine pistols.

Well, actually it groups them into light pistols, heavy pistols, and machine pistols, and all three fall under the 'pistols' skill, so I'd think that anything that applies to 'pistols' applies to all three categories unless singled out.

That is another can of worms. A hilarious can of worms, if you were so inclined to try to break the system. Bear with me.

So longarms are small drones, at body 2.
Go over to arsenal's weapon mount section. It is a Standard mod, which means it cannot apply to micro or minidrones. Thankfully, longarms are neither.
Look down to Size. Read a bit in: 'As a general rule, one weapon can be added to a vehicle for every 3 points of body it has, rounded up'. 2/3 is .66 repeating, which rounds up to 1.
Weapons have six modification slots, and pilot upgrade doesn't take any.
Uh oh.
Suddenly, over-barrel recoil-less LMG turret on your shotgun.

Actually, machine pistols are Automatics, not Pistols. People just don't use them alot because... why use machine pistols when you can have an ingram smartgun? Or an ares alpha? Or even a machine gun. Ignoring the power-weapons of each class, you've still got smgs, assault rifles, and lmg's under the same skill. They're kind of under-rated, which is why i've been looking at making useful builds out of them.

Oh, darn, you're right. It's light/heavy... no, wait.. how the heck does it divide them again? Ah, yeah, tasers, SA, hold-out, and revolvers.

Well, I still stand by 'it is called a pistol, and so should be included when a pistol is mentioned'.



Well, if you really wanted I could maybe give you a weapon mount on your... weapon, but it wouldn't be recoilless. It'd fall back under the 'RC = body' rule. Of course you'd have to operate it remotely and use your gunnery skill on it, just like any other vehicle mounted weapon.

Still, a fairly simple 'the GM will slap the silly out of you' solution to the problem, though I admit it is fairly well within the rules. They should add a 'but has no vehicle modification slots'. Otherwise I can think of a bunch of cool things you can do with them that wouldn't be quite as blatantly wrong as the LMG weapon mount on your weapon.

What, like put lighter-than-air on it, as many ammo bins as you can, and use the recoil to move your airbag lmg-shotgun turret around the battlefield with burst fire?

And yes. It is silly. Super-silly. I would not allow half the shit I come up with at my own table. But its still fun to come up with it anyway.

Not quite, but it sounds entertaining.

Now i'm curious - what DID you have in mind?

Afraid you'll have to wait to find out. Bedtime for me, and likely won't get a chance to post tomorrow unless class is canceled (Totally possible)

So sub-machine guns should have the same rules as shotguns? After all, they are both called "guns."

Actually the the auto-adjusting weight specifically cannot be used on "hold-outs and pistols." Notice that a hold-out pistol is indeed also called a pistol and even uses the same skill but is specially noted. Thus it's a fairly safe assumption that the restriction applies to Light Pistols, Heavy Pistols, hold-outs and maybe even Tasers. But not machine pistols.

In any case you could use an underbarrel weight which doesen't work with hold-outs (but presumebly with everything else). The assumption of course is that "doesen't work with x" should be interpreted as the same as "works with everything but x".

Logical enough?

I actually made an attempted build based around a troll getting 8 short bursts per IP. Trollsakimbo.
He's got two Ares HVARs with 17 RC each (including strength RC applied to both weapons.)
Base DP of 12, so split to 6 for each gun per action. +10 dice for each hand (+6 from Adept powers, +2 Specialization, +1 reflex recorder and +1 from Sideways.)

The -2DP from each additional target really screwed the pooch on this concept. -14DP for the 8th target on top of the -12DP from the second off-hand full burst in the pass, well, that's irreconsilable. Against a single target though, Trolls can shred unholy ass.

No, but sub-machine guns and shotguns should both be considered under effect any time something effects guns' Of course, so should all firearms. All you need is a bit of basic logic here. Submachine gun is a type of gun. Shotgun is a type of gun. Submachine gun is not a type of shotgun. Shotgun is not a type of submachine gun. Thus anything affecting shotguns affects shotguns, anything affecting submachine guns affects submachine guns, and anything that affects guns affects both.


No, actually the books just refer to them as hold-outs usually. There are only two references to hold-out pistols as opposed to 9 of hold-outs. I'd imagine that spesifying hold-outs and pistols is simply to make it slightly more obvious because the books only rarely refer to hold-outs as hold-out pistols. The books however always refer to machine pistols as machine pistols and not just machines. Same with light/heavy pistols. It never refers to them as simply Light or Heavy.

Heck, even in what you are quoting it says hold-outs and not hold-out pistols, thus further reinforcing the idea that they simply want to make it clear that hold-outs are included because it would be very easy to miss hold-outs being called hold-out pistols.

So, using the previous example, Light, Heavy, and Machine pistols are all pistols. None are each other. Thus anything that affects pistols affects all three of them.

Well, logically speaking, 'doesn't work with x' doesn't mean 'works with everything but x', but that is the generally assumed English meaning. Still though, I don't see your point here. So underbarrel weight doesn't work with hold-outs. What's your point? As I said before, specific things can be singled out. They also could have said it doesn't work with hold-outs and light pistols. What difference would it make to anything but a hold-out or a light pistol's ability to use an underbarrel weight?

Generally speaking, within the rules if it excludes pistols, it is excluding every category from the pistol skill, i.e. Tasers, Hold-outs, Light, Heavy. It can then further exclude only hold-outs or tasers. Machine Pistols, however, fall under the automatics skill.

Not all automatic weapons fall under this skill also. The automatic shotgun (AFB) uses shotgun skill, the ruger thunderbolt only fires in short bursts, but uses only pistol skill, and actual machineguns use the Heavy Weapons skill.

I think that's pretty clear.

Good detective work crizh. There it is, machine pistols being recognized by the book as a type of pistol. Thus anything that applies to 'pistol' applies to 'machine pistol'.

Well more that they flat-out don't have an under-barrel mount to put said weight on...

I really don't understand the pictures they use for machine pistols. Personally, when I hear machine pistol, I don't think about stuff like a Glock 18 so much as a MAC 9/11 or a Steyr TMP which are only superficially pistols. Regardless, a machine pistol, even the glock 18 if we're going by that, basically necessitates a foregrip for any kind of serviceable use (I've even seen the G18 with a foldout one like the Baretta 93R.)

Just get swivel mounts put on your shoulder armor. Then attach a guns witha pilot skill. Then have two in your hands.

Let the good times roll.

Ooh! Well found. Thanks for clearing that up.

So, basically, use they mods for the TMP above on an SMG class weapon instead.

Damn. For my next trick, then, I'm going to see if I can get a gasvent system that works with some flavor of silencer.

I think you are looking for the HK-227 with cyber gyro-mounts.

They work together, just not at the same time.

Wrong. Silencers and gasvents are a clusterfuck of modifications and accessories rules. Only the gasvent arsenal mod has a clause limiting it from working with various sound dampeners. And that clause is only for sound suppressors and thermal suppressors.

On the other hand, the Silencer/Soundsuppressor/revolver silencer mod, says they work in the same way as the weapon accessories, except you get a better bonus because its inside the gun.(-6 dice)

Silencer accessories are for non-revolver single shot or semi-auto weapons, takes a barrel slot, and a complex action to attach, and gives a -4.
Sound suppressors accessories are like silencers, but only for burst fire and full auto weapons. They attach the same way, give the same bonus, and take up the same accessory slot.

So, if i'm reading this right, the ingram smartgun's stock accessories do actually work together. That, and a gasvent accessory with a silener mod is actually pretty good. Anyone see problems with that, ruleswise?

Other than the fact that you're obviously taking quite blatant advantage of loopholes that any GM which catches you is going to smack you for?

Exactly. The only way to silence with a gas-vent is to cover the holes... which renders the vent worthless.

The Ingram Smartgun X makes me wonder though. Is that just built through manufacturer voodoo, or do paradox spirits pop out and smack people everytime someone uses one, or whats the deal?

It's entirely possible, you simply have to seal the vents and viola! It's suppressed. It gives the gun a lot of variety.

Of course, as I have said several times before, the rules are mince.

A good 'can' will not only reduce the noise of a sub-sonic round to virtually nothing it will also decrease felt recoil and increase range and accuracy.

Arsenal has a number of rules tweaks inserted by folks that had not done the basic research before they started prognosticating about RL 'physics' in our game system.

My particular favourite is the one about not being able to use firearms in a vacuum because there is no Oxygen to burn the propellant. Muppets.

derp, beaten.

That's...interesting. It sounds like a "good can" is an improvement to firearms across the board, and should be installed on every weapon. I'm surprised this technology isn't standard issue in the military already. It's really a miracle product the way you're describing it; do you have a link I could check out so I can complete my education? I want to check the facts before I make snarky remarks.

Search function on this forum blows by the way. I spent an hour trawling through 200 pages of old threads this morning to find this.

The most salient information is here and here.

On my first pass, I read your entire post in "snarky" tone, and found myself doubling that tone on the last sentence.

I don't think they expect enough benefit from the grunts who they spent all of two weeks training to shoot in order to bother with the expense.
Besides, a soldier's kit is already heavy enough without adding crap to his rifle to boost his "performance" in the limited skirmishes he's likely to face today.

Spec Ops though.. they get whatever they damn please. Squad marksman might benefit as well.