To effectively split dice pools, ...and infinitives. Options

[Karoline]

So sub-machine guns should have the same rules as shotguns? After all, they are both called "guns."

No, but sub-machine guns and shotguns should both be considered under effect any time something effects guns' Of course, so should all firearms. All you need is a bit of basic logic here. Submachine gun is a type of gun. Shotgun is a type of gun. Submachine gun is not a type of shotgun. Shotgun is not a type of submachine gun. Thus anything affecting shotguns affects shotguns, anything affecting submachine guns affects submachine guns, and anything that affects guns affects both.

Actually the the auto-adjusting weight specifically cannot be used on "hold-outs and pistols." Notice that a hold-out pistol is indeed also called a pistol and even uses the same skill but is specially noted. Thus it's a fairly safe assumption that the restriction applies to Light Pistols, Heavy Pistols, hold-outs and maybe even Tasers. But not machine pistols.

No, actually the books just refer to them as hold-outs usually. There are only two references to hold-out pistols as opposed to 9 of hold-outs. I'd imagine that spesifying hold-outs and pistols is simply to make it slightly more obvious because the books only rarely refer to hold-outs as hold-out pistols. The books however always refer to machine pistols as machine pistols and not just machines. Same with light/heavy pistols. It never refers to them as simply Light or Heavy.

Heck, even in what you are quoting it says hold-outs and not hold-out pistols, thus further reinforcing the idea that they simply want to make it clear that hold-outs are included because it would be very easy to miss hold-outs being called hold-out pistols.

So, using the previous example, Light, Heavy, and Machine pistols are all pistols. None are each other. Thus anything that affects pistols affects all three of them.

In any case you could use an underbarrel weight which doesen't work with hold-outs (but presumebly with everything else). The assumption of course is that "doesen't work with x" should be interpreted as the same as "works with everything but x".

Logical enough?

Well, logically speaking, 'doesn't work with x' doesn't mean 'works with everything but x', but that is the generally assumed English meaning. Still though, I don't see your point here. So underbarrel weight doesn't work with hold-outs. What's your point? As I said before, specific things can be singled out. They also could have said it doesn't work with hold-outs and light pistols. What difference would it make to anything but a hold-out or a light pistol's ability to use an underbarrel weight?

[X-Kalibur]

Generally speaking, within the rules if it excludes pistols, it is excluding every category from the pistol skill, i.e. Tasers, Hold-outs, Light, Heavy. It can then further exclude only hold-outs or tasers. Machine Pistols, however, fall under the automatics skill.

Not all automatic weapons fall under this skill also. The automatic shotgun (AFB) uses shotgun skill, the ruger thunderbolt only fires in short bursts, but uses only pistol skill, and actual machineguns use the Heavy Weapons skill.

[crizh]

Pistols (including machine pistols) have a top mount and a barrel mount.

Machine Pistol

[]

They have a top and a barrel mount and require the Automatics skill to use.

I think that's pretty clear.

[Karoline]

I think that's pretty clear.

Good detective work crizh. There it is, machine pistols being recognized by the book as a type of pistol. Thus anything that applies to 'pistol' applies to 'machine pistol'.

[crizh]

Well more that they flat-out don't have an under-barrel mount to put said weight on...

[Saint Sithney]

I really don't understand the pictures they use for machine pistols. Personally, when I hear machine pistol, I don't think about stuff like a Glock 18 so much as a MAC 9/11 or a Steyr TMP which are only superficially pistols. Regardless, a machine pistol, even the glock 18 if we're going by that, basically necessitates a foregrip for any kind of serviceable use (I've even seen the G18 with a foldout one like the Baretta 93R.)

[Kraegor]

Just get swivel mounts put on your shoulder armor. Then attach a guns witha pilot skill. Then have two in your hands.

Let the good times roll.

[Udoshi]

Good detective work crizh. There it is, machine pistols being recognized by the book as a type of pistol. Thus anything that applies to 'pistol' applies to 'machine pistol'.

Ooh! Well found. Thanks for clearing that up.

So, basically, use they mods for the TMP above on an SMG class weapon instead.

Damn. For my next trick, then, I'm going to see if I can get a gasvent system that works with some flavor of silencer.

[Caadium]

Ooh! Well found. Thanks for clearing that up.

So, basically, use they mods for the TMP above on an SMG class weapon instead.

Damn. For my next trick, then, I'm going to see if I can get a gasvent system that works with some flavor of silencer.

I think you are looking for the HK-227 with cyber gyro-mounts.

[X-Kalibur]

They work together, just not at the same time.

[Udoshi]

They work together, just not at the same time.

Wrong. Silencers and gasvents are a clusterfuck of modifications and accessories rules. Only the gasvent arsenal mod has a clause limiting it from working with various sound dampeners. And that clause is only for sound suppressors and thermal suppressors.

On the other hand, the Silencer/Soundsuppressor/revolver silencer mod, says they work in the same way as the weapon accessories, except you get a better bonus because its inside the gun.(-6 dice)

Silencer accessories are for non-revolver single shot or semi-auto weapons, takes a barrel slot, and a complex action to attach, and gives a -4.
Sound suppressors accessories are like silencers, but only for burst fire and full auto weapons. They attach the same way, give the same bonus, and take up the same accessory slot.

So, if i'm reading this right, the ingram smartgun's stock accessories do actually work together. That, and a gasvent accessory with a silener mod is actually pretty good. Anyone see problems with that, ruleswise?

[Karoline]

Other than the fact that you're obviously taking quite blatant advantage of loopholes that any GM which catches you is going to smack you for?

[X-Kalibur]

Other than the fact that you're obviously taking quite blatant advantage of loopholes that any GM which catches you is going to smack you for?

Exactly. The only way to silence with a gas-vent is to cover the holes... which renders the vent worthless.

[Caadium]

The Ingram Smartgun X makes me wonder though. Is that just built through manufacturer voodoo, or do paradox spirits pop out and smack people everytime someone uses one, or whats the deal?

[X-Kalibur]

The Ingram Smartgun X makes me wonder though. Is that just built through manufacturer voodoo, or do paradox spirits pop out and smack people everytime someone uses one, or whats the deal?

It's entirely possible, you simply have to seal the vents and viola! It's suppressed. It gives the gun a lot of variety.

[crizh]

Of course, as I have said several times before, the rules are mince.

A good 'can' will not only reduce the noise of a sub-sonic round to virtually nothing it will also decrease felt recoil and increase range and accuracy.

Arsenal has a number of rules tweaks inserted by folks that had not done the basic research before they started prognosticating about RL 'physics' in our game system.

My particular favourite is the one about not being able to use firearms in a vacuum because there is no Oxygen to burn the propellant. Muppets.

[Saint Sithney]

derp, beaten.

[MikeKozar]

A good 'can' will not only reduce the noise of a sub-sonic round to virtually nothing it will also decrease felt recoil and increase range and accuracy.

That's...interesting. It sounds like a "good can" is an improvement to firearms across the board, and should be installed on every weapon. I'm surprised this technology isn't standard issue in the military already. It's really a miracle product the way you're describing it; do you have a link I could check out so I can complete my education? I want to check the facts before I make snarky remarks.

[crizh]

Search function on this forum blows by the way. I spent an hour trawling through 200 pages of old threads this morning to find this.

The most salient information is here and here.

[Tsuul]

That's...interesting. It sounds like a "good can" is an improvement to firearms across the board, and should be installed on every weapon. I'm surprised this technology isn't standard issue in the military already. It's really a miracle product the way you're describing it; do you have a link I could check out so I can complete my education? I want to check the facts before I make snarky remarks.

On my first pass, I read your entire post in "snarky" tone, and found myself doubling that tone on the last sentence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Saint Sithney]

That's...interesting. It sounds like a "good can" is an improvement to firearms across the board, and should be installed on every weapon. I'm surprised this technology isn't standard issue in the military already. It's really a miracle product the way you're describing it; do you have a link I could check out so I can complete my education? I want to check the facts before I make snarky remarks.

I don't think they expect enough benefit from the grunts who they spent all of two weeks training to shoot in order to bother with the expense.
Besides, a soldier's kit is already heavy enough without adding crap to his rifle to boost his "performance" in the limited skirmishes he's likely to face today.

Spec Ops though.. they get whatever they damn please. Squad marksman might benefit as well.