LAV?, Vector Thrust Upgrades Options

[Tsithlis]

I am a longtime player of the shadowrun system and have quite often played the "Rigger" on most missions since hackers/technomacers pretty much did not exist until 4th. I have just bought arsenal and I noticed that it seems like you can no longer Vector Thrust upgrade a vehicle. Am I missing something or has this just been dropped out of the system. I used to love vectoring my motorcycle and even have an awesome drawn up picture for it (looks similar to the Lamprey in arsenal). Is this just going to be something that they are dropping from canon or what? For the record I notice that the CD Dalmation is vectored thrust so why can't a motorcycle be?

[The Jopp]

What you are looking for is the ”Improved landing & Takeoff 2” which is only available for Aircrafts nowadays.

But, if you are like me, you completely disregard vehicle restrictions and give a good explanation about this cool new brand of flying bikes and cars.

[D2F]

For the record I notice that the CD Dalmation is vectored thrust so why can't a motorcycle be?

Before I answer you, I would need you to verify something for me: Is this a serious question or are you just trying to pull our collective legs?

[Tsithlis]

Before I answer you, I would need you to verify something for me: Is this a serious question or are you just trying to pull our collective legs?

I don't get it...

According to SR4 pg. 350. The Dalmation vectored-thrust recon drone features a unique limited hover capability and a sturdy frame for its light weight design. I don't see how I'm pulling anyone's leg.

[Karoline]

Before I answer you, I would need you to verify something for me: Is this a serious question or are you just trying to pull our collective legs?

Yes, he really wants a flying motorcycle. Seriously.

[Tsithlis]

Ahh I see, yes I do like my V-T Motorcycle it was always so useful for landing in small areas and avoiding lone-star.

[The Jopp]

The only drawback I see for a flying motorcycle is that it is no longer an actual motorcycle.

When it has VTOL capacity it is an aircraft.

The simple thing is to do this:

Name: SigZeur Tornado Aerial Motorcycle
Vehicle: Dalmatian Flying large Drone
Modification: Manual Controls +4
Metahuman Adjustment (Non-Troll) +0

With a Body of 4 (With similar models you can change it to 5) it can easily carry a metahuman, with manual controls you can also steer the thing. Metahuman adjustment add a basic seat and foot pedals etc.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Yes, he really wants a flying motorcycle. Seriously.

If you could get one – wouldn't you, too? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Karoline]

If you could get one – wouldn't you, too? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I was just confirming it for D2F that that is what the OP really wanted..

[D2F]

I don't get it...

According to SR4 pg. 350. The Dalmation vectored-thrust recon drone features a unique limited hover capability and a sturdy frame for its light weight design. I don't see how I'm pulling anyone's leg.

Because you asked why, based on that design, rocket bikes make no sense. But I'll just assume you are sincere with your question, so I will treat it as such and attempt to explain in detail, why that makes no sense:

1.) Vectored thrust is effectively a Jet engine. While modern day technological nomenclature subsumes vectored thrust jet engines and tilt rotor fans under the same term, SR differentiates between the two (tilt rotor fans fall under the tilt wing category in SR). That leaves LAVs as jets.

2.) Jet exhaust fumes are warm. VERY warm, indeed. On the lower end, we are talking about 500-750°C (~900-1,400°F) and they would need to be ejected in the opposite direction you intend to travel. They would be your only means of acceleration and decelleration, as well as need to keep you afloat in the first place. Chances therefore are, that your legs or other parts of your body will be near those exhaust fumes. That could prove to be very painful. Not to mention the fact, that your supply of oxigen might be compromised (since the fumes will burn up all the oxigen around you and the heat will not exactly be favorable to your lungs.

3.) Jet engine acceleration is terrible. Most people think about afterburners and high end speeds but are completely oblivious to the slow acceleration pase. An electric car leaves a MiG jetfighter in the dust, when it comes to acceleration.
Naturally, the same holds true for deceleration (which is why most combat jet fighters have extra parachutes to assist in breaking, as well as brakes on their actual tires. A LAV bike, by the base standard wouldn't even have tires. It is pretty safe to assume that a LAV bike would be unsafe for urban traffic. Your stopping distance would be abysally long compared to other craft.

4.) Given the lack of road adherence and ground effect, your cornering abilities would be equaly bad. Regular streets would most likely not provide enough open space for cornering maneuvers at speeds higher than a mild jog (I'd have to do the math on it, so this is just a personal estimate and not nescessarily the case but your cornering would be considerably worse than that of a wheeled or tracked ground vehicle)

5.) The Dalmatian works, because it only has to lift its own weight. The bike would also have to lift you on top of that (plus your gear). In addition, the Dalmatian is already larger than your bike (as it approaches the size of a regular car) and would have a considerably broader wingspan than your bike (which would be limited to a 2.5m (~8tf)). Also, keep in mind that other LAVs in SR, like the Banshee are considerably lager, with considerably bigger jet engines and are fully enclosed to protect the crew from the exhaust fumes.

All in all, a rocket bike simply makes no sense. It would be inferior in pretty much all aspects to a regular bike, consume massively more fuel and put the driver at lethal risk of being burned or suffocated.

Do you now understand why I wasn't sure as to whether your question was serious?

[The Jopp]

All in all, a rocket bike simply makes no sense. It would be inferior in pretty much all aspects to a regular bike, consume massively more fuel and put the driver at lethal risk of being burned or suffocated.

It can easily be changed into a “Directional Turbofans” similar to the Moller Flying Car design instead of jet engines.

60+ years of aeuronautics design and lightweight materials could very well be feasible, especially with more efficient lightweight batteries as fuel cells.

Body 4 drones size can be from Motorcycle and to a small car.

The Lockheed Sparrow is a flying machine for individuals but is not a motorcycle, it has a body of 3 and can take a person so a body 4 drone shouldnt have a problem depending on design.

The Lockheed sparrow IS on the other hand larger than a motorcycle in the illustration, especially with those 4 large propellers – exchange them for four smaller directional turbofans and it would look smaller.

[D2F]

It can easily be changed into a “Directional Turbofans” similar to the Moller Flying Car design instead of jet engines.

After reading through the sparrow entry again, I have to concede that SR4 considers jet propellers properly a part of vectored thrust technology, so the request is a bit more sensible, now.

But even if we considered tilt wing aircraft rules for the bike, the majority of problems would still remain. It would still not be safe for traffic. It would still have horrible acceleration and decelleration rates and it would still have an abysmal conering radius.

Not to mention that would require a different driving license (pilot aircraft), and it would be subject to air corridors and airspace surveillance. Not exactly a commuter vehicle.

The Lockheed sparrow IS on the other hand larger than a motorcycle in the illustration, especially with those 4 large propellers – exchange them for four smaller directional turbofans and it would look smaller.

smaller directinonal turbofans won't be able to achieve enough thrust to even lift it off the ground. Not to mention the additional noise they would create.


So far, my conclusion is: A LAV bike would be unsafe for traffic, have a horrible fuel economy, would require a pilot aircraft license and skill, would feature abysmal acceleration and stopping distance, would have trouble cornering in city streets and be too loud to conform to legally allowed parameters.

That all said: If you want a LAV bike, buy a sparrow.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Uhm… it's about replacing two turbofans with four slightly smaller ones.

And the request is about a slightly bigger, more powerful Sparrow, essentially.

[D2F]

Uhm… it's about replacing two turbofans with four slightly smaller ones.

And the request is about a slightly bigger, more powerful Sparrow, essentially.

It's not about four "slightly" smaller ones. That wouldn't cause any problems, but about four "small" ones.
And as I said in the post you replied to: he should just buy a sparrow, then. Take one of the provided alternatives and assume it uses a four-fan design and you're done.

On a sidenote: Mythbusters tried to build a thing that looked exactly like the sparrow. It didn't fly. Not enough lift.

[The Jopp]

So far, my conclusion is: A LAV bike would be unsafe for traffic, have a horrible fuel economy, would require a pilot aircraft license and skill, would feature abysmal acceleration and stopping distance, would have trouble cornering in city streets and be too loud to conform to legally allowed parameters.

Unsafe is fun, not to mention that the people manning these flying deathtraps will be criminals and go-gangs mostly.

Besides, 60+ years of aeuronautics developmetn might make the drone incredibly light and the engines more powerful - and silent. How advanced was the materials and engines of aircrafts in 1950 compared to today...

Otherwise one can just call the Lockheed Sparrow an airbike and make it look like a cool futuristic flying bike and go from there.

[The Jopp]

On a sidenote: Mythbusters tried to build a thing that looked exactly like the sparrow. It didn't fly. Not enough lift.

Interesting, but they are not aircraft engineers otoh,

A company in china has designed something close to a sparrow which is a personal backpack helicopter - that is as close to a sparrow you can get and that one works.

[D2F]

Unsafe is fun, not to mention that the people manning these flying deathtraps will be criminals and go-gangs mostly.

No, unsafe is dangerous. That is only fun for thrill seeker. Thrill seekers make piss poor shadowrunners.
And go-gangs drive motorbike as a sign of their affiliation and manhood. The sparrow, or even a LAV bike would no longer count as a motorbike. Go-Ganger would laugh you off their turf, if they caught you in one, regardless the shape.

Besides, 60+ years of aeuronautics developmetn might make the drone incredibly light and the engines more powerful - and silent. How advanced was the materials and engines of aircrafts in 1950 compared to today...

Otherwise one can just call the Lockheed Sparrow an airbike and make it look like a cool futuristic flying bike and go from there.

That is what I suggested, so why did you quote my suggestion and replied to it as if you disagreed?

[Tsithlis]

This is why my post count is so low, every time I post something on a forum there is always that one person that come back with why would you want (x) its stupid and makes no sense with physics. Nevermind the fact that elves can throw spells that can turn you into a pile of sludge and dragons have winged flight regardless of the fact that they weigh more than a small building. But I can't have a cool (call it whatever you want) that fly's at low altitudes and is fun...

Here is my picture of it btw...

Vector Bike

[Matsci]

This is why my post count is so low, every time I post something on a forum there is always that one person that come back with why would you want (x) its stupid and makes no sense with physics. Nevermind the fact that elves can throw spells that can turn you into a pile of sludge and dragons have winged flight regardless of the fact that they weigh more than a small building. But I can't have a cool (call it whatever you want) that fly's at low altitudes and is fun...

Here is my picture of it btw...

Vector Bike

So, your logic goes, because Magic exists, I can have a magical hoverbike that doesn't use any magic?

Also, looking at that bike, It's going to be dumping 650 deg C exausts gasses onto your leg. That's not fun, that's hot enough that Aluminium is deforming.
As people have suggested, the Sparrow, modified to be something like This thing, might work and not kill you when you try to ride it.

[The Jopp]

This one is cuter.

[Manunancy]

Not to mention the fact, that your supply of oxigen might be compromised (since the fumes will burn up all the oxigen around you and the heat will not exactly be favorable to your lungs.

I don't think lack of oxigen will be much of an issue there - you're throwing the exhaust gases away, which displaces fresh air toward you. Though the fuel consumption (and teh oxygen needed to burn it) will probably make using it indoors a bad idea unless you have a lot of room and/or good ventilation


Note on the 'vector bike' picture : looks like a great legburner to me too. And it gets me wondering : how is that thing supposed to generate enough lift to fly ? It lacks lifting surfaces (well, maybe the body could generate enough lift to keep airborne, but the required speed will rip any rider away), and the jet engines don't seems able to deflect down.

The only 'canon' way to get it airborne in an earth-level gravity would be a mage using a 'levitate' spelle on it. Not what I'd call convenient.

[D2F]

This is why my post count is so low, every time I post something on a forum there is always that one person that come back with why would you want (x) its stupid and makes no sense with physics. Nevermind the fact that elves can throw spells that can turn you into a pile of sludge and dragons have winged flight regardless of the fact that they weigh more than a small building. But I can't have a cool (call it whatever you want) that fly's at low altitudes and is fun...

Here is my picture of it btw...

Vector Bike

Awesome drawing. Nice work! That said: it would kill you =)
Besides: you asked why you couldn't do it anymore and I gave you a reason. If you still want it and your group is fine with it, just use the stats of the sparrow.

[svenftw]

So far, my conclusion is: A LAV bike would be unsafe for traffic, have a horrible fuel economy, would require a pilot aircraft license and skill, would feature abysmal acceleration and stopping distance, would have trouble cornering in city streets and be too loud to conform to legally allowed parameters.

No, unsafe is dangerous. That is only fun for thrill seeker. Thrill seekers make piss poor shadowrunners.

I have one slightly unrelated question: do you have any fun when you play Shadowrun?

[Caadium]

This one is cuter.

That just screams SR to me.

[Tanegar]

This one is cuter.

1) Why is it asymmetrical?

2) What's that pod on the left-side spar supposed to be?

3) Most important, how does it stay up? There are no apparent lifting surfaces.