Why would a Technomancer ever jump into a Drone? Options

[Jonny Reload]

First off I want to thank everyone that's been helpful lately with helping me get back into the groove of GM'ing Shadowrun for my players. And being that I'm asking this, I did search the forums and couldn't find an answer to this, so...

Looking at threading, why would a Technomancer ever rely on his Response rather then Threading his Command Complex Form to a ridiculously high number? (Isn't it was more beneficial for a Technomancer to Remote Control a Drone with a higher dice pool rather then just jump into it?)

If this is the case.... Why? (This makes no sense, I'd figure being one with the machine would make you quicker then just Remote Controlling from VR.)

[SleepIncarnate]

Overclocking + Advanced Overclocking + 2 levels of Immersion.

Turn that drone into a fine tuned machine that can run at 5 IP, and get an extra 4 dice to all pools (2 from the bonus Response, 2 from Immersion) while jumped into it instead of just Commanding it, which also means you don't have to worry about Physical Damage from Threading. Also..... personal preference. Some people like the more hands on approach.

[Falconer]

Rigged drones don't accept any external commands. IE: remote controlling a drone risks someone spoofing commands to it. (read the intro fiction in SR4a... good example of 'fighting' over control of a drone and each one giving it commands)

In other words, the only way to take over a rigged drone is to dumpshock the rigger by disconnecting him somehow, or cracking into the node and taking him out in cybercombat.

If you are remote controlling it via command, there are some actions which take more actions to do, which a physical pilot or rigger can accomplish w/ a faster action.

[SleepIncarnate]

Also, if the TM isn't of a stream that has machine sprites (or if they're a dronomancer and really REALLY love drones), they might rig in to get better overall control.

[Jonny Reload]

Sleep: Why would Overclock + Advanced Overclock not apply to the Technomancer Remote Controlling the Drone? (And Immersion Grades don't give you a bonus to all dice pools. I mean, lets say you get a nasty threading pool of 14+ dice, you get about 6 successes, that's a 6 + whatever your Command Form is + the Active Skill you use.

Falconer: This is if you plan to leave the wireless Signal wide open, but if you Skinlink or Laserlink the Drone to you, you really don't have to worry about someone Spoofing when your Remote Controlling it.

As for the actions that take less time when Jumped In rather then Remote Controlling, could you give an example or a page reference cause I never spotted anything about certain actions take less time when Rigging.

[AngelisStorm]

How do you "Skinlink" a drone, unless it's sitting on your shoulder? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

[SleepIncarnate]

Immersion is an echo, can be taken twice, each time you take it gives a cumulative +1 dice pool modifier to all tasks while jumped in. Can find it on p. 146 of Unwired. You're thinking of submersion grade. Another good echo, which requires Immersion, is Mind Over Machine, which lets the TM jump in to anything, even stuff without a rigger adaptation. And a TM can't control a drone via skinlink unless he keeps touching it while commanding it, soon as the physical connection is broken, it goes back to being wireless.

But in all honesty, this question of yours could be generalized to why does any rigger jump in? Or even why would someone be a rigger instead of a hacker? What makes a rigger different than a hacker? You might as well be asking these questions as well.

[Jonny Reload]

Angeli: For the questions I was asking, I was speaking about a Van that had vehicle mounted Weapons along with a Pilot Rating.

Sleep: DOH! I got Submersion mixed up with Immersion. As for Skinlink, if it was a Van with Pilot, all you'd need to be doing is sitting in the chair. Trust me, I've been asking those questions since I first started wrapping my head around SR4, but it just statistically seems that if you trick out your TM's Fading Resistance + Threading Test Pool + Jack Up his Command Form, he can have much more control and a higher dice pool to do things instead of when you merge your consciousness with the machine... There's no errata anywhere clearing this up, explaining why this is, or limiting your Command Form upon the drone's Response or etc?

From reading all the fluff about Riggers, this seems wrong to me, so that's why I was trying to see if I'm making any mistakes in saying if your TM angles himself with all the right test pools, specialties, and Complex Forms, he can outmatch a Rigging TM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) I personally would probably house rule some of this stuff or put a limit on it, but I first want the official ruling on stuff like this before I have to muzzle one of my players when I tell him "I know it says this this and this in the book but it's simply broken ergo, I'm fixing it."

[Karoline]

why does any rigger jump in?

I've asked myself that a fair bit, though the reason why is different from the one in this discussion.

Also, I thought using the command program to command a drone to do something did just that, tell it to do something. The drone still has to operate on its own and use its own dice to accomplish the task.

I mean, that's kind of like saying that commanding your toaster to make you toast will cause toast to instantly appear instead of bread having to be put in, the toaster heat up, and toast the bread, then put it out.

You can command your drone to shoot someone as fast as you want, but it still has to target the person and fire on its own, at its own speed (Jumping in of course bypasses this speed)

[SleepIncarnate]

A rigger TM will almost always outmatch a hacker TM in rigging, simply because it's what he specializes in. Remember, the TM requires skills for most tests in stuff like piloting, gunnery, infiltration, etc, and while the hacker TM who's tricked out to resist Fading (and all TMs should be anyways) might be able to thread his Command CF up, the rigger TM can too, and will have those skills so still able to have higher pools. Simply put, unless a TM is built for rigging, he should probably leave drone control to either autonomous via occaisional prodding into what they should do (i.e. telling a roto-drone what area to patrol and telling it to shoot anyone not recognized in that area), or by a machine sprite, which even if they're not of a stream that has that sprite type, they can pick it up with their first echo if they're really wanting to do a lot with drones. And keep in mind, in order to thread their Command CF higher than their Resonance is going to be physical damage, and impose a -2 dice pool penalty (which if they're not a good high Resonance TM already, will be more trouble than it's worth) unless they have a registered sprite sustain for them, which will eat up tasks quickly.

So in summation, can they thread up a massive Command CF and run with it that way? Sure, but it's not as easy as you make it sound, and can sometimes be more trouble than it's worth.

[Jonny Reload]

Karoline: That's not exactly an accurate portrayal. The rules and fluff given in the SR4A book (As well as Unwired) state that when Remote Controlling a Drone, the dice pools used with the Command Program/Form is what the Drone does, not an order you issue it and then it gets a separate test pool to actually execute the order. It's basically a twitch based program being used either AR or VR, like a racing video game, if ya move right, the car moves right when you do, not when the Drone AI decides to (Otherwise you go to the Autonomous Test Pool Categories on page 247 of SR4A, not the Remote Control Test Pool category.)

Sleep: If you take the Swap Echo twice, you basically just side stepped the detriment of sustained Threaded CF's (Which my player unfortunately has.) The only thing I got dangling in front of him is that the Drain would be Physical Damage BUT as he also has a very high Resistance test pool. I mean, the more I look at his character sheet, the more it does look like he has made a Rigger TM... But as I said, I personally don't like the fact that you can just get a higher dice pool Remote Controlling it rather then Rigging into it, and there doesn't seem to be errata or anything fixing this... Unless I'm missing some rule somewhere that puts a handicap on a Remote Controller getting more dice then the Rigged TM.

[SpellBinder]

A remote controlled drone reacts just as slowly as the controller (i.e., a drone by itself has 3 IPs, but AR remote control is usually one IP for the controller), if not slower (a command is a complex action, even if you tell the drone to take aim or fire a gun which are simple actions). When you're jumped in, the drone acts as quickly as your VR allows (2 or 3 IPs, depending on cold or hot sim).

When you're jumped into the drone, the command program is no longer used as you and the drone are one. You think it, the drone's body reacts. The rigger's mind effectively takes the place of the drone's pilot rating as well as any installed autosofts it might have. While jumped in, firing a gun or taking aim is still a simple action. If you're running a hot sim while jumped in, you get a +2 bonus to everything.

Then, if you've got the cybergear for it, you can potentially get an additional +7 (already including the hot sim bonus) to all tests while jumped in. Only a TM could exceed this for remote controlling, but then you're reacting much slower again.

[SleepIncarnate]

That's just something you have to either decide as a GM to not allow or accept, TMs are built to excel in the Matrix, and prior to Unwired were generally weak in anything else (though machine sprites helped alleviate this even then), but with all the new echoes in Unwired, they become better all around with the right echoes picked. Their downside, and the downside they've always had, is that they are the biggest mana sinks of any character type, easily spending more to raise a CF by one point than a mage spends on an entire spell, and spending just as much on Submersion/Resonance as mages do Initiation/Magic, plus the need to get all their mental attributes capped as soon as possible, as opposed to mages who can focus on just the two for their drain resistance. What this means is that they are slower to progress than other characters, and it's up to the player to figure out how to overcome that (usually via threading).

[Jonny Reload]

As one last side question since it looks like I'm gonna have to deal with the rules and my player's TM on my own, are TM's basically the Zenith of rigging? I mean, with a Cyberware Control Rig, do TM Riggers just flatout own a Cybernetic Rigger?

[SpellBinder]

If a TM is willing to sacrifice a point or two of resonance (thinking of a nanohive and control rig boosters as well), and thus weakening their connection to the matrix and the resonance, I don't see why not. Mind, though, this will hamper a TM in other places (like their biological PAN), and as Sleep said TMs are a major karma sink to keep improving their abilities (any complex forms improved beyond rating 5 cost more in karma than a mage spends on a new spell); made even worse with an impaired resonance attribute.

But there's an old saying: "No matter how good you think you are, there's always someone out there who's better." (Unknown). Hopefully something your TM rigger is aware of. If not, then hopefully you'll fully exploit his folly when the excrement hits the air disbursement device.

[Jaid]

i'm a little confused here. yes, the technomancer is really, really good at what they specialise in. no, that isn't really a problem. provide challenges that the character will be able to overcome in their area of specialisation, but if you want to provide challenges that will stop the character, target the area they don't specialise in. that way the player doesn't feel punished for having built a character who is good at what they do, instead they start wishing their character could do other things also, which will fairly effectively slow down their progression in their specialty.

[Aerospider]

As one last side question since it looks like I'm gonna have to deal with the rules and my player's TM on my own, are TM's basically the Zenith of rigging? I mean, with a Cyberware Control Rig, do TM Riggers just flatout own a Cybernetic Rigger?

On top of the (IMO very good) arguments already given, rigging reduces vehicle test thresholds by 1. On average that's the equivalent of +3 dice. It's not often going to help with drones (since it doesn't apply to tests like Gunnery or Perception), but if you're talking about driving a van then that's going to come in very handy the next time a chase erupts.

If you really are desperate to see more appeal in rigging you could always use the solution to the script-kiddy problem (whereby attributes don't seem to matter to hackers) and cap the gross hits of program/CF rolls by the character's Logic (or other appropriate attribute). That way his threading ability suffers heavily diminishing returns after a certain point whilst jumping-in is left untouched. I much prefer this to the flip version (rolling attribute, limiting by program/CF rating) but I'm still not sure either is very important to game balance.

[Blade]

TM are the Zenith of every field of the game except magic (though they can defend themselves against it). They just need truckloads of karma.

[Sengir]

(a command is a complex action, even if you tell the drone to take aim or fire a gun which are simple actions)

Or just observe in detail with the sensors. Using Command means that the drone just has one action per IP and that one action can have a silly dice pool. But how often would a R10+ command form not just mean "win more"?


And rigging of course has the flavour bonus, especially for characters who like to talk to their machines. You are the machine that is racing though the darkness, adjusting control surfaces and afterburners like a tightrope artist controlling his muscles in perfection, while the enemy's radar tingles on your skin and the sound of steel guitars in your head...uhm, you get the idea (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[KCKitsune]

TM are the Zenith of every field of the game except magic (though they can defend themselves against it). They just need truckloads of karma.

OK can you expand on this statement? How are they better in melee than a street sam?

I can get a starting street sam with MBW rating 2, Muscle Tone and Augmentation 2, & Bone Lacing 4 (plus tricked out cybereyes and ears). And I still have 26,500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) left over for other gear. If I take the Rich Quality then I can buy a lot more 'ware & gear. Sure a TM might become quick... if he has taken that IP enhancing Echo, but he is still VERY squishy.

My example Street Sam has all of that gear at standard grade. If your uber-TM took on a tricked out sammy (with betaware, as getting Delta is pushing it)... they would be finding bits of him scattered about Seattle, the UCAS, and all points in between.

[Karoline]

OK can you expand on this statement? How are they better in melee than a street sam?

Grab the 'pull them into the matrix' echo and one melee touch disables an opponent.

I think they meant matrix centric. Or perhaps that an army of drones that they control could outfight a single sammy.

[Blade]

OK can you expand on this statement? How are they better in melee than a street sam?

First of all, being in melee with the streetsam means the TM didn't have drones take care of the streetsam before he came close enough. With the 5IP (with one bonus matrix actions per IP) the TM can get, he'd probably be able to hack some nearby drones, load them with machine sprites and have them fight the streetsam.
But if the streetsam still manages to get close enough, he'll face an opponent with a decent combat skill: there's also an echo combo that let them learn everything they want just by touching skillsofts (and maybe spending something like 1 karma). So all the TM needs is to enter a store, touch all the skillsofts chips and he knows them all. (TMs can also get access to any technical (and vehicle, IIRC) skill on the fly by compiling a Tutor Sprite). I'm pretty sure the TM could get a few bonuses by using other TM-tricks (maybe using a melee weapon that's somehow computer-controlled so that he could get bonuses with a machine sprite... I don't have the books to check if that's possible).
The TM might still have less dice than the streetsam, but he just needs to touch him: there's an echo that let the TM pull someone in the Matrix just by touching him. Once in the Matrix, they can hit them with a blackhammer with a threaded psychotrope effect that can have a lot of different and very powerful permanent effects: for example "incompetence (melee skill)" or a personality change so that the streetsam will become the TM's best friend for life...

[Sengir]

But if the streetsam still manages to get close enough, he'll face an opponent with a decent combat skill: there's also an echo combo that let them learn everything they want just by touching skillsofts (and maybe spending something like 1 karma).

One Karma per skillsoft rating, plus the usual "no edge" rule of skillsofts

So all the TM needs is to enter a store, touch all the skillsofts chips and he knows them all.

Well, if you want to cheat availability ratings for skillsofts, the sam can always just rob a store.

The TM might still have less dice than the streetsam, but he just needs to touch him: there's an echo that let the TM pull someone in the Matrix just by touching him.

Touch-only attack just means you get +2 dice for the attack. Since we are talking about maxed out characters, the sam's MBW 3 will let him dodge that without any effort. Even if not, my melee chars never leave home without shock frills...

[SleepIncarnate]

The TM doesn't have to be squishy. They can have a lot of body and wear good armor, same as a sam. The sam is still limited in what he can do with his karma and his money, his potential has a cap. The TM not so much. So long as he keeps submersing and raising Resonance, he can raise his CFs up pretty insanely high. Let's take your sam and TM example and say they've both gained about 2000 karma and millions of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) by now, being very active and long going runners, the sam will be capped out with 7 in all combat skills, have deltaware, etc. But the TM will be at about their 9th-12th submersion grade, with a 12-18 Resonance, and CFs to match. Without threading, the TM in AR can hack into the sam's commlink, with admin access, and shut off all the sam's cyberware before the sam can even get close. Or have a rating 12-18 crack or fault sprite do so. Then it's a small matter of walking up, touching the now completely immobile sam because he's more machine than man now, dragging him into the Matrix, and frying his mind with Black Hammer. Or have a machine sprite enter the sam's PAN with the other sprite and then take control, killing the sam with his own cyberware. And a blind and deaf samurai can't hit or dodge what's coming if he can't sense it.

[Karoline]

The TM doesn't have to be squishy. They can have a lot of body and wear good armor, same as a sam. The sam is still limited in what he can do with his karma and his money, his potential has a cap. The TM not so much. So long as he keeps submersing and raising Resonance, he can raise his CFs up pretty insanely high. Let's take your sam and TM example and say they've both gained about 2000 karma and millions of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) by now, being very active and long going runners, the sam will be capped out with 7 in all combat skills, have deltaware, etc. But the TM will be at about their 9th-12th submersion grade, with a 12-18 Resonance, and CFs to match. Without threading, the TM in AR can hack into the sam's commlink, with admin access, and shut off all the sam's cyberware before the sam can even get close. Or have a rating 12-18 crack or fault sprite do so. Then it's a small matter of walking up, touching the now completely immobile sam because he's more machine than man now, dragging him into the Matrix, and frying his mind with Black Hammer. Or have a machine sprite enter the sam's PAN with the other sprite and then take control, killing the sam with his own cyberware. And a blind and deaf samurai can't hit or dodge what's coming if he can't sense it.

Or just take into account the 3 million (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) worth of drones that would be protecting the TM at that point.

"Okay, you begin running at the TM to attack her in melee. Are you sure?"
"Yeah, of course, squishy TM is going down."
"Alright, I need you to make... *Consults the TM's ream of paper worth of drones list*.. 247 dodge rolls for me as machine gun fire opens on you from all sides."

Of course even ignoring that, Sleep is right. The Sammy reaches a limit of possible skill, while the TM can continue to submerge and gain resonance. Eventually the TM just threads a rating 20 skillsoft for unarmed combat and makes the sammy cry because the TM has a bigger DP from skill alone than the sammy can manage with all his wear.

It is a shame, but you reach a point where karma advancement is the only real means to advance, but mundanes don't have access to unlimited karma advancement.