First off I want to thank everyone that's been helpful lately with helping me get back into the groove of GM'ing Shadowrun for my players. And being that I'm asking this, I did search the forums and couldn't find an answer to this, so...

Looking at threading, why would a Technomancer ever rely on his Response rather then Threading his Command Complex Form to a ridiculously high number? (Isn't it was more beneficial for a Technomancer to Remote Control a Drone with a higher dice pool rather then just jump into it?)

If this is the case.... Why? (This makes no sense, I'd figure being one with the machine would make you quicker then just Remote Controlling from VR.)

Overclocking + Advanced Overclocking + 2 levels of Immersion.

Turn that drone into a fine tuned machine that can run at 5 IP, and get an extra 4 dice to all pools (2 from the bonus Response, 2 from Immersion) while jumped into it instead of just Commanding it, which also means you don't have to worry about Physical Damage from Threading. Also..... personal preference. Some people like the more hands on approach.

Rigged drones don't accept any external commands. IE: remote controlling a drone risks someone spoofing commands to it. (read the intro fiction in SR4a... good example of 'fighting' over control of a drone and each one giving it commands)

In other words, the only way to take over a rigged drone is to dumpshock the rigger by disconnecting him somehow, or cracking into the node and taking him out in cybercombat.

If you are remote controlling it via command, there are some actions which take more actions to do, which a physical pilot or rigger can accomplish w/ a faster action.

Also, if the TM isn't of a stream that has machine sprites (or if they're a dronomancer and really REALLY love drones), they might rig in to get better overall control.

Sleep: Why would Overclock + Advanced Overclock not apply to the Technomancer Remote Controlling the Drone? (And Immersion Grades don't give you a bonus to all dice pools. I mean, lets say you get a nasty threading pool of 14+ dice, you get about 6 successes, that's a 6 + whatever your Command Form is + the Active Skill you use.

Falconer: This is if you plan to leave the wireless Signal wide open, but if you Skinlink or Laserlink the Drone to you, you really don't have to worry about someone Spoofing when your Remote Controlling it.

As for the actions that take less time when Jumped In rather then Remote Controlling, could you give an example or a page reference cause I never spotted anything about certain actions take less time when Rigging.

How do you "Skinlink" a drone, unless it's sitting on your shoulder?

Immersion is an echo, can be taken twice, each time you take it gives a cumulative +1 dice pool modifier to all tasks while jumped in. Can find it on p. 146 of Unwired. You're thinking of submersion grade. Another good echo, which requires Immersion, is Mind Over Machine, which lets the TM jump in to anything, even stuff without a rigger adaptation. And a TM can't control a drone via skinlink unless he keeps touching it while commanding it, soon as the physical connection is broken, it goes back to being wireless.

But in all honesty, this question of yours could be generalized to why does any rigger jump in? Or even why would someone be a rigger instead of a hacker? What makes a rigger different than a hacker? You might as well be asking these questions as well.

Angeli: For the questions I was asking, I was speaking about a Van that had vehicle mounted Weapons along with a Pilot Rating.

Sleep: DOH! I got Submersion mixed up with Immersion. As for Skinlink, if it was a Van with Pilot, all you'd need to be doing is sitting in the chair. Trust me, I've been asking those questions since I first started wrapping my head around SR4, but it just statistically seems that if you trick out your TM's Fading Resistance + Threading Test Pool + Jack Up his Command Form, he can have much more control and a higher dice pool to do things instead of when you merge your consciousness with the machine... There's no errata anywhere clearing this up, explaining why this is, or limiting your Command Form upon the drone's Response or etc?

From reading all the fluff about Riggers, this seems wrong to me, so that's why I was trying to see if I'm making any mistakes in saying if your TM angles himself with all the right test pools, specialties, and Complex Forms, he can outmatch a Rigging TM. I personally would probably house rule some of this stuff or put a limit on it, but I first want the official ruling on stuff like this before I have to muzzle one of my players when I tell him "I know it says this this and this in the book but it's simply broken ergo, I'm fixing it."

I've asked myself that a fair bit, though the reason why is different from the one in this discussion.

Also, I thought using the command program to command a drone to do something did just that, tell it to do something. The drone still has to operate on its own and use its own dice to accomplish the task.

I mean, that's kind of like saying that commanding your toaster to make you toast will cause toast to instantly appear instead of bread having to be put in, the toaster heat up, and toast the bread, then put it out.

You can command your drone to shoot someone as fast as you want, but it still has to target the person and fire on its own, at its own speed (Jumping in of course bypasses this speed)

A rigger TM will almost always outmatch a hacker TM in rigging, simply because it's what he specializes in. Remember, the TM requires skills for most tests in stuff like piloting, gunnery, infiltration, etc, and while the hacker TM who's tricked out to resist Fading (and all TMs should be anyways) might be able to thread his Command CF up, the rigger TM can too, and will have those skills so still able to have higher pools. Simply put, unless a TM is built for rigging, he should probably leave drone control to either autonomous via occaisional prodding into what they should do (i.e. telling a roto-drone what area to patrol and telling it to shoot anyone not recognized in that area), or by a machine sprite, which even if they're not of a stream that has that sprite type, they can pick it up with their first echo if they're really wanting to do a lot with drones. And keep in mind, in order to thread their Command CF higher than their Resonance is going to be physical damage, and impose a -2 dice pool penalty (which if they're not a good high Resonance TM already, will be more trouble than it's worth) unless they have a registered sprite sustain for them, which will eat up tasks quickly.

So in summation, can they thread up a massive Command CF and run with it that way? Sure, but it's not as easy as you make it sound, and can sometimes be more trouble than it's worth.

Karoline: That's not exactly an accurate portrayal. The rules and fluff given in the SR4A book (As well as Unwired) state that when Remote Controlling a Drone, the dice pools used with the Command Program/Form is what the Drone does, not an order you issue it and then it gets a separate test pool to actually execute the order. It's basically a twitch based program being used either AR or VR, like a racing video game, if ya move right, the car moves right when you do, not when the Drone AI decides to (Otherwise you go to the Autonomous Test Pool Categories on page 247 of SR4A, not the Remote Control Test Pool category.)

Sleep: If you take the Swap Echo twice, you basically just side stepped the detriment of sustained Threaded CF's (Which my player unfortunately has.) The only thing I got dangling in front of him is that the Drain would be Physical Damage BUT as he also has a very high Resistance test pool. I mean, the more I look at his character sheet, the more it does look like he has made a Rigger TM... But as I said, I personally don't like the fact that you can just get a higher dice pool Remote Controlling it rather then Rigging into it, and there doesn't seem to be errata or anything fixing this... Unless I'm missing some rule somewhere that puts a handicap on a Remote Controller getting more dice then the Rigged TM.

A remote controlled drone reacts just as slowly as the controller (i.e., a drone by itself has 3 IPs, but AR remote control is usually one IP for the controller), if not slower (a command is a complex action, even if you tell the drone to take aim or fire a gun which are simple actions). When you're jumped in, the drone acts as quickly as your VR allows (2 or 3 IPs, depending on cold or hot sim).

When you're jumped into the drone, the command program is no longer used as you and the drone are one. You think it, the drone's body reacts. The rigger's mind effectively takes the place of the drone's pilot rating as well as any installed autosofts it might have. While jumped in, firing a gun or taking aim is still a simple action. If you're running a hot sim while jumped in, you get a +2 bonus to everything.

Then, if you've got the cybergear for it, you can potentially get an additional +7 (already including the hot sim bonus) to all tests while jumped in. Only a TM could exceed this for remote controlling, but then you're reacting much slower again.

That's just something you have to either decide as a GM to not allow or accept, TMs are built to excel in the Matrix, and prior to Unwired were generally weak in anything else (though machine sprites helped alleviate this even then), but with all the new echoes in Unwired, they become better all around with the right echoes picked. Their downside, and the downside they've always had, is that they are the biggest mana sinks of any character type, easily spending more to raise a CF by one point than a mage spends on an entire spell, and spending just as much on Submersion/Resonance as mages do Initiation/Magic, plus the need to get all their mental attributes capped as soon as possible, as opposed to mages who can focus on just the two for their drain resistance. What this means is that they are slower to progress than other characters, and it's up to the player to figure out how to overcome that (usually via threading).

As one last side question since it looks like I'm gonna have to deal with the rules and my player's TM on my own, are TM's basically the Zenith of rigging? I mean, with a Cyberware Control Rig, do TM Riggers just flatout own a Cybernetic Rigger?

If a TM is willing to sacrifice a point or two of resonance (thinking of a nanohive and control rig boosters as well), and thus weakening their connection to the matrix and the resonance, I don't see why not. Mind, though, this will hamper a TM in other places (like their biological PAN), and as Sleep said TMs are a major karma sink to keep improving their abilities (any complex forms improved beyond rating 5 cost more in karma than a mage spends on a new spell); made even worse with an impaired resonance attribute.

But there's an old saying: "No matter how good you think you are, there's always someone out there who's better." (Unknown). Hopefully something your TM rigger is aware of. If not, then hopefully you'll fully exploit his folly when the excrement hits the air disbursement device.

i'm a little confused here. yes, the technomancer is really, really good at what they specialise in. no, that isn't really a problem. provide challenges that the character will be able to overcome in their area of specialisation, but if you want to provide challenges that will stop the character, target the area they don't specialise in. that way the player doesn't feel punished for having built a character who is good at what they do, instead they start wishing their character could do other things also, which will fairly effectively slow down their progression in their specialty.

On top of the (IMO very good) arguments already given, rigging reduces vehicle test thresholds by 1. On average that's the equivalent of +3 dice. It's not often going to help with drones (since it doesn't apply to tests like Gunnery or Perception), but if you're talking about driving a van then that's going to come in very handy the next time a chase erupts.

If you really are desperate to see more appeal in rigging you could always use the solution to the script-kiddy problem (whereby attributes don't seem to matter to hackers) and cap the gross hits of program/CF rolls by the character's Logic (or other appropriate attribute). That way his threading ability suffers heavily diminishing returns after a certain point whilst jumping-in is left untouched. I much prefer this to the flip version (rolling attribute, limiting by program/CF rating) but I'm still not sure either is very important to game balance.

TM are the Zenith of every field of the game except magic (though they can defend themselves against it). They just need truckloads of karma.

Or just observe in detail with the sensors. Using Command means that the drone just has one action per IP and that one action can have a silly dice pool. But how often would a R10+ command form not just mean "win more"?


And rigging of course has the flavour bonus, especially for characters who like to talk to their machines. You are the machine that is racing though the darkness, adjusting control surfaces and afterburners like a tightrope artist controlling his muscles in perfection, while the enemy's radar tingles on your skin and the sound of steel guitars in your head...uhm, you get the idea

OK can you expand on this statement? How are they better in melee than a street sam?

I can get a starting street sam with MBW rating 2, Muscle Tone and Augmentation 2, & Bone Lacing 4 (plus tricked out cybereyes and ears). And I still have 26,500 left over for other gear. If I take the Rich Quality then I can buy a lot more 'ware & gear. Sure a TM might become quick... if he has taken that IP enhancing Echo, but he is still VERY squishy.

My example Street Sam has all of that gear at standard grade. If your uber-TM took on a tricked out sammy (with betaware, as getting Delta is pushing it)... they would be finding bits of him scattered about Seattle, the UCAS, and all points in between.

Grab the 'pull them into the matrix' echo and one melee touch disables an opponent.

I think they meant matrix centric. Or perhaps that an army of drones that they control could outfight a single sammy.

First of all, being in melee with the streetsam means the TM didn't have drones take care of the streetsam before he came close enough. With the 5IP (with one bonus matrix actions per IP) the TM can get, he'd probably be able to hack some nearby drones, load them with machine sprites and have them fight the streetsam.
But if the streetsam still manages to get close enough, he'll face an opponent with a decent combat skill: there's also an echo combo that let them learn everything they want just by touching skillsofts (and maybe spending something like 1 karma). So all the TM needs is to enter a store, touch all the skillsofts chips and he knows them all. (TMs can also get access to any technical (and vehicle, IIRC) skill on the fly by compiling a Tutor Sprite). I'm pretty sure the TM could get a few bonuses by using other TM-tricks (maybe using a melee weapon that's somehow computer-controlled so that he could get bonuses with a machine sprite... I don't have the books to check if that's possible).
The TM might still have less dice than the streetsam, but he just needs to touch him: there's an echo that let the TM pull someone in the Matrix just by touching him. Once in the Matrix, they can hit them with a blackhammer with a threaded psychotrope effect that can have a lot of different and very powerful permanent effects: for example "incompetence (melee skill)" or a personality change so that the streetsam will become the TM's best friend for life...

One Karma per skillsoft rating, plus the usual "no edge" rule of skillsofts


Well, if you want to cheat availability ratings for skillsofts, the sam can always just rob a store.


Touch-only attack just means you get +2 dice for the attack. Since we are talking about maxed out characters, the sam's MBW 3 will let him dodge that without any effort. Even if not, my melee chars never leave home without shock frills...

The TM doesn't have to be squishy. They can have a lot of body and wear good armor, same as a sam. The sam is still limited in what he can do with his karma and his money, his potential has a cap. The TM not so much. So long as he keeps submersing and raising Resonance, he can raise his CFs up pretty insanely high. Let's take your sam and TM example and say they've both gained about 2000 karma and millions of by now, being very active and long going runners, the sam will be capped out with 7 in all combat skills, have deltaware, etc. But the TM will be at about their 9th-12th submersion grade, with a 12-18 Resonance, and CFs to match. Without threading, the TM in AR can hack into the sam's commlink, with admin access, and shut off all the sam's cyberware before the sam can even get close. Or have a rating 12-18 crack or fault sprite do so. Then it's a small matter of walking up, touching the now completely immobile sam because he's more machine than man now, dragging him into the Matrix, and frying his mind with Black Hammer. Or have a machine sprite enter the sam's PAN with the other sprite and then take control, killing the sam with his own cyberware. And a blind and deaf samurai can't hit or dodge what's coming if he can't sense it.

Or just take into account the 3 million worth of drones that would be protecting the TM at that point.

"Okay, you begin running at the TM to attack her in melee. Are you sure?"
"Yeah, of course, squishy TM is going down."
"Alright, I need you to make... *Consults the TM's ream of paper worth of drones list*.. 247 dodge rolls for me as machine gun fire opens on you from all sides."

Of course even ignoring that, Sleep is right. The Sammy reaches a limit of possible skill, while the TM can continue to submerge and gain resonance. Eventually the TM just threads a rating 20 skillsoft for unarmed combat and makes the sammy cry because the TM has a bigger DP from skill alone than the sammy can manage with all his wear.

It is a shame, but you reach a point where karma advancement is the only real means to advance, but mundanes don't have access to unlimited karma advancement.

Well, if we're going that route, the TM could spend a shit-ton of on building a suit of power armor similar to what you see in mecha anime.

Woo, go mecha battles.

But yeah, grap some heavy milspec armor with mobility upgrades, strength upgrades, and a bunch of other fun stuff. Heck that isn't even all that expensive. 20k for the base suit, 6k for the mobility 4500 for the strength, 7500 for the ruthamer coating, and then however much for the other cool stuff you want. Biggest problem is legality.

I was thinking more along the lines of it being more vehicle than armor, kinda like the badguy's suit of armor at the end of Iron Man. Thickly armored, comes with rocket launchers, chain guns, etc, and really only needs 2 skills to operate, Gunnery and Pilot, which the TM would of course jump into..... with their 5 IP.

Dude, Gunnery IS a Vehicle Skill, ergo, ya get the bonus with a Control to Gunnery. Also, where is this rule that rigging reduces test thresholds by 1? (I'm not trying to jump down your throat, your just spouting rules I've never heard of and want to make sure I'm not screwing up big time here.)

Assuming that shutting down a sam is just a matter of hacking his commlink, why do you need a dozen immersions? That is something every matrix ganger can do, which is why nobody would configure his PAN like that

His cyber is still slaved all to a single node, the problem is that most cybernetic stuff is signal 0, so you have to be right on top of him to hack...... unless you have those ridiculous level sprites hacking it for you from VR before his Firewall can find them.

OK, everyone, you're comparing apples and oranges. I asked why a TM would be any good in melee. You all respond that the TM would send in his drone army and splatter the sammy.

How about we compare apples to apples. A Street Sam vs TM melee fight. If you want to have uber-mancer with his drone army then I can have the sammy use a gauss rifle and blow his fragging head off.

As has already been stated, one touch and the Street Sam is in the Matrix getting fried. All the ranged discussion was about how the Sam got close enough in the first place.

no, he doesn't.

1) the TM would need a rating 20 biowire to do that, which is 20 submersion grades.
2) the TM would need a rating 20 unarmed combat skillsoft, which does not exist, in order to thread it. read the damn book. it says they can emulate an already existing copy. if there is no rating 20 skillsoft, there is no rating 20 skillsoft CF.

the technomancer will likely have a skillsoft as high as 5 or 6 (the highest commercially available is 4, but we'll assume that a 2,000 karma technomancer has probably hacked his way into getting some experimental skillsofts which are probably 31 different flavors of buggy software, but we'll pretend the huge bugs in the software also don't exist) plus attributes, the street sam will probably have 6-7 plus a specialisation (which the technomancer can't have in a skillsoft) plus reflex recorders plus a maxed-out augmented maximum attribute (will be at least 10 after genetic optimisation) plus martial arts bonuses (which don't exist in skillsoft form). if in some way the street sam manages to get within melee range of a technomancer who hasn't spent similar amounts on melee, the technomancer is going to die horribly, whether or not they can force the street same into VR with a touch (you still have to touch, and as was pointed out, that's only a +2 bonus)

You just accepted, without directly saying so, that the sam would have a very hard time getting into melee range on said TM. Which reinforces my initial point that a TM can be quite a bit more hardcore in meatspace than most people think. No, they won't be as good in straight up melee like as a street sam, but neither is a face and the TM will be about equal to a dedicated face in combat stuffs.

sure, the TM will probably have really good ability to protect himself in the meat (in the 2k karma/millions of nuyen scenario proposed) but the street sam will also have really good stealth skills. the street sam might have a hard time, but i don't consider it by any means impossible. particularly since the vast majority of the drones and security systems will be using agents, IC, and pilot programs, and will likely not have any spider beyond the TM (who is likely only really on call, not patrolling). i wouldn't expect more than one or two sprites patrolling, if that. difficult? probably. but not impossible.

besides which, the point was made that the technomancer does not equal the street sam in melee combat, which is a valid counterpoint to an argument that the technomancer rules in everything except magic. if the technomancer can be demonstrated to be weaker in melee combat as compared to a melee street samurai, then the technomancer is clearly not superior in everything, only in most things.

I never said superior, I only said they're not as weak as everyone thinks outside the Matrix. Going back to just finished with 400 BP CG, resonance 5 or 6 TM. Compile and register a rating 6 machine sprite, put it in a doberman or lynx, it's going to have 14 dice to use its machine gun, more if it does a wide spread. That's comparable to the starter street sam. Add in 2 more sprites in a pair of roto-drones, and you've now got one TM in meatspace who can defend themselves and kill as good as any of the sams in his team.

Since when do attack dice pools increase when performing a Wide Burst?

News to me...

Keep the Faith

Negative modifier to defender's defense pools is about the same as extra dice to the attack roll.

Not really, no, but I understand where you are coming from now...

No Worries...

Keep the Faith

The unwired errata has some things to say about Biowired skillsofts. Namely, you can't improve it or thread it better. Sprite assist operation is a-okay, though, if you need a little extra oomph.


I'd like to point out that Immersion is potentially hilarious, because it lets you jump -anything-, even stuff that isn't meant to be. When you rig something, you override external commands. I mean, who bothers putting firewalls on maglocks. Or fridges. Or automatic doors. Or, heck, say you manage to kick the Spider out of a rigged building. Now you can jack it by jumping in, and have everything at your fingertips.


In the vehicle section. Driving by VR(pilot programs get this bonus) reduces Thresholds by 1. This doesn't really help against opposed tests, like shooting people. If you're physically driving, and have Subscribed to the vehicle, you get +1 dice to all Vehicle tests which IS useful, but remote control is specifically exempt from this bonus. Somewhere buried in the rules is a modifier that says anything you do via remote control is at a -2 dice pool(which is why pilot skills have remote control as a specialty), but I can't find the relevant passage right now. If someone finds it, please tell me.

no, not really. the sam also probably has dodge, and especially likely has perception, all in ranges those drones can't hope to compete in while also being able to drive and shoot. not to mention damage soaking, stealth, mobility (the street sam can probably climb walls and swim better than the drones), plus a street sam can easily start with more than 14 dice in a firearm skill.

sprite-controlled drones are fairly handy, and can pack a respectable punch. but equal to a street samurai they are not, in many ways.

I also have a question: OK, the uber-mancer just touched the sammy and brought him into VR cyber combat... what's to stop the Sammy from having picked up enough hacker skills to fight the TM? Hell with a commlink only taking up 2 capacity, the sammy could have multiple commlinks and just Agent Smith the TM. Yeah, the TM can take on one hacker, but one hacker and 4 Rating 4 Agents (half with Expert Attack and half with Expert Defense and all with Cascading) with Attack 6, Armor 6, and each program has as many options as they can have.

I mean the sammy can have a commlink link in each limb, and one in his head. He can also cluster his cyberware and make that another node and have IC running on that... hell make that the "Medic" agent... it's repairing the damage the other IC is taking from the TM.

After searching through Unwired, SR4A, and Arsenal, *unless* you are referring to the -2 penalty for being distracted (which only applies to particular tests), that penalty appears to be akin to that episode of Nina Bedford about 'Toast F*cking' (you know...where you f*ck or are f*cked by toast): something that occurred in a dream.

(I didn't mean to be too snarky about that -- I can't pass up an opportunity to quote Brain Candy. Long story short: unless the rule appears in a totally obscure location, the penalty you described doesn't exist.)

Why on earth would I slave my cyberware to the commlink? The Wifi on a cyberarm is only need for reapairs or firmware updates, everything else can be done via DNI.

Those agents are going to have a hard time with their 12 attack, 12 defense and 12 soak against a TM with 14+ attack, 18+ defense, and 14+ soak, not to mention his rating 6+ Fault/Tank/Paladin sprites. And that's only if the TM only has Resonance 6 and isn't threading. Your sam with all his agents in VR against a TM is like a group of Halloweeners trying to take on the sam in the flesh in a fight, they MIGHT get lucky, but chances are very much not in their favor.

The attack agents would get 13 dice (Rating 4 Agent + Rating 6 Attack + Rating 3 Expert Attack) and on every round that they don't do damage their Attack goes up by 3 dice (Cascade Rating 3). The Medic IC would be repairing the agents damaged in VR combat.

Doesn't matter. Since we're back with a higher karma TM, let's look at it this way, and I'll be nice and assume the TM is only Resonance 12 and not threading, and has not bought the exceptional attribute quality for any of his mental attributes. AND assuming the sam will be able to use all those links and it's not just his mind being brought into the Matrix.

Echoes: Skinlink and Resonance Trodes (required for pulling the sam into the Matrix), Overclocking, Advanced Overclocking, Swap x2 (just because he's not threading this instance doesn't mean he doesn't)
Black Hammer 12 with Area 6, Targeting, Rust, Armor Piercing 3, Shredder, and Psychotropic 6 (Incompetent: Cyber Combat)
Armor 12
Shield 12
Response 8 if troll, 9 otherwise (6 Intuition +2 Overclocking/Advanced Overclocking, +1 hot sim)
System 6 (5 if Ork or Troll)
Firewall 6 (or 7 if a dwarf)
Edge 6 (7 if human)
Cybercombat 7

Now, without even having sprites out, just that one TM and the sam with we'll say 6 agents (1 per arm, 1 per leg, 1 from torso, 1 from head). Your rating 4 agents have a condition monitor of 10. TM will almost certainly go first with a Matrix initiative of 16/17 default. Area effect Black Hammer to all the agents and the Sam. Rolls:

7 cybercombat + 12 Black Hammer + 2 targeting -12 extra targets + 2 hot sim= 11 dice, not a very impressive pool, to be honest, but all it needs to do is get 1 net hit beyond defenses, and each agent rolls its own defenses (10 for the attack agents and 13 for the defense agents), and that's not including adding edge. We'll say the defense agents resist it, but the attack agents and Medic IC are almost certainly going to get hit. Their armor 6 drops to armor 3, and if they don't soak at least 3 levels of the 12 damage, they're gone. So now you've lost a medic IC and let's say 2 of the 3 attack agents. We'll even be nice and say the sam's not completely fried because he's got an impressive body in the meat despite this not being his area of expertise. Your attack agent rolls 13 dice and your defense agents roll 10 dice to attack. The TM's not even going to be affected with 9 Response + 6 Firewall + 12 Shield + 2 hot sim = 29 defense dice (20 if the GM wants to cap it). I'll even be nice and say the agents have targeting on their attack programs and that raises it to 15 and 12. They're still unlikely to get through the TM's defenses, and assuming they do, they now have to deal with System 6 + armor 12 + 2 hot sim -3 armor piercing = 17 dice armor. The TM is, to say the least, unimpressed.

Next IP, the TM throws another area effect Black Hammer, this time at 17 dice because it needs to target 3 less opponents, which almost guarantees the agents will fry. And if the sam isn't fried yet, he will be by the end of the third IP. Sure, the street sam can go Agent Smith on the TM if he wants, but Agent Smith got the crap kicked out of him by one guy, and the Matrix is the TM's home turf. Everyone says don't mess with a TM in the Matrix, mess with em out of the Matrix. Thank you for helping prove that point true while helping support my supposition that while TMs may not be gods in the meat, they're certainly not the helpless mewling babes everyone makes them out to be either.

black hammer doesn't do jack to the agents.

however, this is all rather a moot point. at 2000 karma, while i don't think the technomancer will have upgraded *all* of his CFs, i do think it is very reasonable to suppose the technomancer will have upgraded his stealth CF to 12. now, you could rule that as soon as the technomancer attacks, he becomes visible (i don't see why), but even if you do, the street sam is going to die as soon as the technomancer attacks anyways (again, a technomancer designed for this will be boosting their CF, threading is easy to get it as high as 9 or 10, add in a long-term registered sprite to assist operation, and you could easily be dealing with a rating 15+ black hammer without stretching. add in net hits, the samurai gets no defense roll (he doesn't know it's coming), and you're looking at soaking probably 20 damage or more.

the agents could actually be dealt with fairly easily by a databombed fake technomancer icon, restricted to not damage the technomancer.

i will readily accept that as soon as matrix combat ensues, the street samurai is screwed. i just don't see the technomancer having all that easy of a time getting into melee with the street samurai, let alone hitting in melee combat.

about the only chance the street sam has once he's in the matrix is that he has a friend who will shoot the technomancer in the meatworld before the technomancer slaughters him with the matrix equivalent of a thor shot.

I never said the TM is going to completely overthrow the street sam in the meat, but as we pointed out, the TM would have a pretty sizeable army of drones to help protect him at a distance, and if the sam got close, the TM would be able to use Resonance Trodes to pull him into the Matrix. At which point as you said, the sam is hosed, even if he does go Agent Smith as KCKitsune suggested. All I was stating is that TMs are not as helpless in the meat as everyone makes out. Yes, they're squishier than a street sam or troll phys-ad, but they can make up for squishyness with cunning. Your average face or mage isn't going to be as tough to kill as a street sam but no one assumes they're so squishy a one-armed baby could kill them, so why make TMs out to be such?