What is a SIN? Options

[Kazuhiro]

The description in the corebook is pretty vague. Do you carry a SIN card with you? Why does it matter if you get caught and given a criminal SIN? Is the criminal SIN inescapable, i.e. tied to your biometric data in corp/government/Lone Star databases? If SINs are numbers tied to biometric data in secure databases, then how do fake SINs work?

I really don't understand at all how SIN identification works.

[nemafow]

To be honest I have my own interpretation of what is a SIN in our games. But I would be extremely interested to hear from other people on what their interpretation of a SIN is, because I don't beleive mine is actually 'correct' per se, as I do agree, very vague.

[Muspellsheimr]

A SIN [System Identification Number] is a numerical or alpha-numerical sequence that identifies an individual, usually given at birth.

It can be compared, roughly, to a Social Security Number. The SIN links to datafiles that record the individuals' data record - this includes purchasing habits, credit history, criminal history, work history, biometric data, birthdate, medical records, licenses, etc. In a nutshell, their life.


In a way, characters do carry around a "SIN card". It is not, however, comparable to a Drivers License or similar - it is simply a broadcast from a commlink that is required in many areas (not doing so is a crime). From this broadcast ID, anyone with proper authorization (or ability to fake/bypass authorization) can see everything in your record, up to what said authorization allows; for example, law enforcement will be able to see name, date of birth, place of residence, criminal history, licenses, & outstanding warrants.

In some low-tech or old-school type areas, & possibly even in modern locations, a character might possess a "SIN Card" as a piece of hardware dedicated to storing & presenting data in a specific SIN - for an idea of what this might look like, I suggest viewing the French film Renaissance [I would suggest the movie to anyone playing Shadowrun]. While this interpretation does not generally fit with the prevelance of Commlinks in Shadowrun, I feel it fits the genre quite well, & adds a lot of flavor.


Forging a fake SIN generally involves creating records of someone who doesn't actually exist, & placing said information, along with the identification number, in the system. The rating of a fake SIN is based on the completeness of the information.




Keep in mind that a Criminal SIN is a SIN with an associated criminal record. It does not mean the character is wanted for a felony, but it does mean there is a record of the character being charged and convicted with a felony in the past.

[Stahlseele]

The SIN is the SYSTEM IDENTIFICATION NUMBER.
It's a Number every correct citizen can get. And that Number gets linked to all of your personal Data.
Tax, Health, Licenses. Everything. Someone who was the right connections and your number basically can get EVERY statistic there is about you.
It's imprinted on Credsticks and you are supposed to have it on broadcast on your comlink in SR4 so cops in the same street can have a look at you.

edit: curses, the muspliheimer was faster <.<

[Mongoose]

A SIN is basically the same as todays Social Security Number, except it is officially tied to every piece of ID, finanancial transaction, police record, etc that you have. Social security numbers aren't officially meant for that purpose, and in some cases you can refuse to provide it, or won't be asked.
You don;t really carry a "SIN card", but your comlink can provide the info when needed, and others can check the SIN vs a database of biometrics etc to be sure you are who you say you are.
A SIN can be flagged as belonging to the perpitrator of some crime. Sometimes a new SIN is created specifically to track a criminal who has no SIN, or who's SIN can't (at that time) be determined; that's all a criminal SIN is. If you have one, and it gets linked to your REAL SIN, then your real SIN is also a "criminal SIN".

SIN's are tied to biometric data. A fake SIN is tied to biometric data that was inserted inot the "secure" database via hacking, bribary, govt corruption, whatever. Its rating corresponds to how easy this data insertion is to pick up on via cross checks, log inquiries, and the "google factor". Basically, a good fake SIN has lots or corraborating evidence in lots of secure (and non secure) databanks, while a crappy one ammounts to some DMV employee plugging in the numbers for some guy who otherwise has no record of ever having existed.

[nemafow]

Same ideas I had, but wasnt sure if it was a SIN CARD, or a SIN stored via electronic information.

[FriendoftheDork]

I gotta disagree about the criminal SIN part. A person with a Criminal SIN is a probationary citizen with very limited rights.He has gotten it from being arrested and having no valid SIN, thus a temporary SIN is created to keep track of the felon. Now this is NOT the same as if an upstanding SINner committed a felony and got sentenced. Sure, it will be in his records, but he's still considered a full citizen. Ok maybe lose some voting right and checked for any firearms purchases, who knows. But he won't have hassle just to ride the Monorail, and I'd think in most jurisdictions he'd retain all rights and attempted to be integrated back into society.

For a criminal SINner to do the same he'd have to apply for a regular SIN. His sentence would still be recorded, and probably also the fact that he has failed to comply with registration previously (assuming their is no SINless amnesty at this time). If this actually works, thanks to alot of bribes, or alot of patience and dumb sheer luck, he would actually become a regular SINner (basically reducing the flaw and spending 10 karma).

Oh and for the main topic: SINs are generally stored electronically. Physical identities may be used for other IDs, but SINs and Licenses are generally stored on your commlink (and stored in major databases).

Also, the info on the comlink is probably just the actualy SIN number and a verification credential, while the actual information details are stored in the databases. Verification systems reads the SIN, checks the credentials and compare it to a database it has access to.

[Stahlseele]

You can get a SIN from any bigger Corporation usually. If you work for them, at least.
It does not have to be government applied. But depending on how the world works, it might not be legit in all places.

[Muspellsheimr]

I gotta disagree about the criminal SIN part. A person with a Criminal SIN is a probationary citizen with very limited rights.

At 10 BP, the character has a criminal SIN, meaning
that the character also has a verifiable criminal record on file, and likely served prison time
in the past.

A Criminal SIN is exactly that - a SIN with an associated, verifiable, criminal record. There is no "limited rights" crap, or anything else you have said. Mongoose is quite accurate on how Criminal SINs work.

[nemafow]

Quick question, if indeed the SIN is stored electronically, and you do not own/have a commlink (god forbid if you didnt, maybe you got robbed) how can lonestar/knight errant (depending on timeline) issue you a temporary SIN if you can't display it anywhere? Or can they even search a database if you insist you have one, but dont have a commlink to transmit that information?

I was always the impression that the SIN was on a small data card, that can be plugged into a commlink or other device, and can be scanned like a manual creditcard/license.

[Muspellsheimr]

If you are in a location that requires a SIN broadcast, and you fail to do so, you will be 'pulled over'. If you then broadcast your SIN, you may be let off with a warning, or simply ticketed. If you are unable to broadcast your SIN, you will be scanned (probably fingerprinting, possibly blood test) to identify you, followed by ticketing & removal from the area. If such scanning fails to identify you, you will be arrested, taken to the station, & booked; in the process, you will be given a SIN (most likely criminal). That is, of course, assuming the officer is not a dick - if you don't have a SIN, you don't exist, & the officer can do nearly anything he wants without fear of legal repercussions - the same applies if your SIN is identified as fake, & you have no real SIN to present.

Similar will apply if you are ever caught in a crime or similar.

[Saint Sithney]

Since the SIN tracks movement through purchases and such, wouldn't a person with 3 SINs need to purchase 3 people's worth of food and other necessity stuff in order to keep the charade up? How common is it for someone to just drop off the grid and then reappear here or there? How would that affect a SIN check? Maybe such higher-level forgeries have built in algorithms to create fake histories within the system so that a SIN appears up to date? Then, what happens to a for a real SIN present due to the SINner quality? Would a SIN-carrying runner have to pay someone to fake records so that they look like normal citizens, or would the SINner in question be expected to live the majority of their life under their legit identity?

[FriendoftheDork]

A Criminal SIN is exactly that - a SIN with an associated, verifiable, criminal record. There is no "limited rights" crap, or anything else you have said. Mongoose is quite accurate on how Criminal SINs work.

Hmm maybe I misunderstood the text.. especially this part:

"If you lack a SIN, many activities that normal citizens
take for granted become impossible for you. For example, you
need a SIN to get a legal job, open a bank account, own property,
go to school, rent an apartment, establish utility services,
and so forth. Most importantly, a SIN is now required for any
form of legal travel—including just buying a bus ticket. Even
those with criminal SINs will find it difficult to perform many
of these activities without red tape and hassle."

In this chapter it talks about you getting issued a Criminal SIN if you're caught SINless, and then how being SINless and having a Criminal SIN both means you have difficulties functioning in normal society. Thus I assumed that Having a Criminal SIN was not the same as having a criminal record .

But if you are right then it means getting convicted for a felony can make it impossible for you to be anything but a criminal - in which case the whole idea of redemption/reintegration has been discarded. However that's fairly stupid as anyone who can't get a job or even ride the bus will have to turn to criminal means.

[Stahlseele]

Technically, being SIN-Less IS illegal itself.

[Daylen]

just because things can be tracked doesnt mean they are. not everyone buys food. how many couples are there where only one of them does grocery shopping? also how many people still use paper money (if you say there is none please give a raw to back it up, I cant find anywhere that says paper money and coins are not used anymore)?

[Muspellsheimr]

Even
those with criminal SINs will find it difficult to perform many
of these activities without red tape and hassle.


Someone without a SIN cannot do any of that. Someone with a Criminal SIN will have difficulties with acquiring legal jobs, for example. That is how it is currently - convicted felons are often unable to get jobs because of their criminal record, among other things.

A Criminal SIN is a SIN with an associated criminal record. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[Daylen]

But if you are right then it means getting convicted for a felony can make it impossible for you to be anything but a criminal - in which case the whole idea of redemption/reintegration has been discarded. However that's fairly stupid as anyone who can't get a job or even ride the bus will have to turn to criminal means.

what else would you expect from a dystopian themed setting? a big part of cyberpunk is the theme of dystopia. think Orwells 1984 with cyberware, and in sr a little magic.

[FriendoftheDork]

Even
those with criminal SINs will find it difficult to perform many
of these activities without red tape and hassle.


Someone without a SIN cannot do any of that. Someone with a Criminal SIN will have difficulties with acquiring legal jobs, for example. That is how it is currently - convicted felons are often unable to get jobs because of their criminal record, among other things.

A Criminal SIN is a SIN with an associated criminal record. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Hmmm yeah maybe I read too much into it. I'd let them ride the bus and the 'rail in SR without hassle though! But getting jobs might be problematic, except for generally low-status ones with limited security risks. Cleaning, Fast food chains, and similar I suppose.

Daylen I'm guessing reintegration is still a goal for the UCAS government but a practical problem because the employers discriminate against them, and banks hesitate to give out loans. However I suppose there is no legal problem with Criminal SINners to get a job... in which case all SINless people can fairly easily get Criminal SINs and then have a a chance at the real life. Sure, employers will still be able to see that Mr. Cool was SINless for a few months ago and might be suspicious, but not as bad as with those who have "murdered a bus full of nuns."

[Daylen]

in UCAS I could buy that, in CAS I'm not so sure, I would think it would have some variation by country. I would expect disfunction one way or the other. For a real twist I could see a few countries requireing employers to hire those with a criminal SIN for a whole new method of dystopia.

[Cardul]

Daylen I'm guessing reintegration is still a goal for the UCAS government but a practical problem because the employers discriminate against them, and banks hesitate to give out loans. However I suppose there is no legal problem with Criminal SINners to get a job... in which case all SINless people can fairly easily get Criminal SINs and then have a a chance at the real life. Sure, employers will still be able to see that Mr. Cool was SINless for a few months ago and might be suspicious, but not as bad as with those who have "murdered a bus full of nuns."

Problem with that is 1) You are sinless, you have no rights. 2) If you are SINLess, you do not legally exist.
This means you can forget about trial by Jury. Heck, you might not even make it to the Lone Star Station!
(Knight Errant, at least, you will make it to the station, and THEN disappear...while the Star cop that arrested
you might just sell you to Tanamous for some extra money and to avoid the paperwork of arresting a SINLess).

[Ghremdal]

I don't know where I read this, I could have swore it is a official rulebook but I couldn't find it later. Anyway I read that fake SINs that are not in constant use degrade in time, and that shadow services charge 10% of a SINs value to keep it up from degrading with fake data (purchases, fake rent payments, etc.). For the Shadowrunner that probably means he has to fork over additional cash every month or those "I need to leave the country now!" backup prisitine fake SINs might not function as well anymore.

A question: Lets say a shadowrunner is a SINer (with a corp), and has several fake SINs tied to his biometric data. For some reason or other someone goes to run his biometric data through the systems. Which SIN will turn up, or will all of them?

[Stahlseele]

Can't believe nobody wrote this yet:
"A SIN is the first step towards hell"
*rincewinds*

[Dakka Dakka]

You are right, and in Germany we already got it - the SteuerIdentifiaktionsNummer (Tax Identification Number).

[Kumo]

Since the SIN tracks movement through purchases and such, wouldn't a person with 3 SINs need to purchase 3 people's worth of food and other necessity stuff in order to keep the charade up? How common is it for someone to just drop off the grid and then reappear here or there? How would that affect a SIN check?

Food/necessity stuff - only if the person is really paranoid or if GM is really nasty. The System is IMO so large and complicated that it's impossible to track every detail about every person. If someone (LS/KE "White Hat", for example) checks your fake SIN, he can find such things. But even then the only thing he knows is that the SIN is probably a fake (and what was done with use of the SIN, of course). Normal scan shouldn't dig so deep in the databases - but it probably check where do you live, work etc.

Maybe such higher-level forgeries have built in algorithms to create fake histories within the system so that a SIN appears up to date? Then, what happens to a for a real SIN present due to the SINner quality? Would a SIN-carrying runner have to pay someone to fake records so that they look like normal citizens, or would the SINner in question be expected to live the majority of their life under their legit identity?

Both SINs will "live their lives" - the runner can pretend a "good citizen" with his original SIN, until the SIN is connected to some crimes - than the cops will find him very, very fast. And a fake SIN is used only when the runner does something illegal (like buying a ticket when going to target, for example).

EDIT:
@Dakka Dakka:
We are, err, better... Every adult in Poland has PESEL (Powszechny Elektroniczny System Ewidencji Ludności - General Electonic System of Evidence of Population). It works very similar to SIN - not having one is illegal and you need it to do most things in any office - to make a driver license, to open a business, to open a bank account... It's always a 11-digit number, including a person's birthdate.

And we still have a "report duty", which means each citizen is officialy connected with his abiding place; but it probably will be abolished in a near time.

[Ascalaphus]

The problem with SINs is that there are different ideas at work in the fluff. At the one side, there's talk about people being SINless against their will. They're not really citizens and so forth. Apparently it's a fairly large part of the population.

On the other side, corporations are supposed to restrict themselves to your SIN to track you as a (potential) customer.

Huh? Corporations ignore a large market segment because the State doesn't want to register them as citizens?


So here's how I handle it:
- Your SIN is your citizenship. It's linked to a (semi-) sovereign entity like a country or an AA/AAA corporation. It entitles you to civil rights. Some entities allow you to have SINs with other entities (Ares+UCAS perhaps), while others can't be combined (Tir Tairngire and Aztlan).
- Without any SIN at all, you're a legal unperson. You're not even an illegal Mexican; you're just illegal, without even being a Mexican. Some countries give you some provisional civil rights, while others don't.
- Corporations have their own systems for tracking consumers, based on what they manage to find out through ubiquitous spyware, RFIDs, facial and gait recognition and so forth. If they can figure out your SIN, that'll be added to your file, but you don't need a SIN to have a file.
- Discovering that you have a fake SIN, or no SIN at all, isn't very hard; but that doesn't mean anybody does anything about it. Countries don't see the need to grant civil rights to undesirables. If you're rich though, you could buy a SIN.
- There are rather a LOT of undesirables without SINs. Something like 40% of the population on average. Getting rid of them is impractical, and besides, they can't sue you for faulty products, making them an attractive market. Only when a SINless person annoys the State does the police care; at that point they can do more or less what they want.