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Kazuhiro
The description in the corebook is pretty vague. Do you carry a SIN card with you? Why does it matter if you get caught and given a criminal SIN? Is the criminal SIN inescapable, i.e. tied to your biometric data in corp/government/Lone Star databases? If SINs are numbers tied to biometric data in secure databases, then how do fake SINs work?

I really don't understand at all how SIN identification works.
nemafow
To be honest I have my own interpretation of what is a SIN in our games. But I would be extremely interested to hear from other people on what their interpretation of a SIN is, because I don't beleive mine is actually 'correct' per se, as I do agree, very vague.
Muspellsheimr
A SIN [System Identification Number] is a numerical or alpha-numerical sequence that identifies an individual, usually given at birth.

It can be compared, roughly, to a Social Security Number. The SIN links to datafiles that record the individuals' data record - this includes purchasing habits, credit history, criminal history, work history, biometric data, birthdate, medical records, licenses, etc. In a nutshell, their life.


In a way, characters do carry around a "SIN card". It is not, however, comparable to a Drivers License or similar - it is simply a broadcast from a commlink that is required in many areas (not doing so is a crime). From this broadcast ID, anyone with proper authorization (or ability to fake/bypass authorization) can see everything in your record, up to what said authorization allows; for example, law enforcement will be able to see name, date of birth, place of residence, criminal history, licenses, & outstanding warrants.

In some low-tech or old-school type areas, & possibly even in modern locations, a character might possess a "SIN Card" as a piece of hardware dedicated to storing & presenting data in a specific SIN - for an idea of what this might look like, I suggest viewing the French film Renaissance [I would suggest the movie to anyone playing Shadowrun]. While this interpretation does not generally fit with the prevelance of Commlinks in Shadowrun, I feel it fits the genre quite well, & adds a lot of flavor.


Forging a fake SIN generally involves creating records of someone who doesn't actually exist, & placing said information, along with the identification number, in the system. The rating of a fake SIN is based on the completeness of the information.




Keep in mind that a Criminal SIN is a SIN with an associated criminal record. It does not mean the character is wanted for a felony, but it does mean there is a record of the character being charged and convicted with a felony in the past.
Stahlseele
The SIN is the SYSTEM IDENTIFICATION NUMBER.
It's a Number every correct citizen can get. And that Number gets linked to all of your personal Data.
Tax, Health, Licenses. Everything. Someone who was the right connections and your number basically can get EVERY statistic there is about you.
It's imprinted on Credsticks and you are supposed to have it on broadcast on your comlink in SR4 so cops in the same street can have a look at you.

edit: curses, the muspliheimer was faster <.<
Mongoose
A SIN is basically the same as todays Social Security Number, except it is officially tied to every piece of ID, finanancial transaction, police record, etc that you have. Social security numbers aren't officially meant for that purpose, and in some cases you can refuse to provide it, or won't be asked.
You don;t really carry a "SIN card", but your comlink can provide the info when needed, and others can check the SIN vs a database of biometrics etc to be sure you are who you say you are.
A SIN can be flagged as belonging to the perpitrator of some crime. Sometimes a new SIN is created specifically to track a criminal who has no SIN, or who's SIN can't (at that time) be determined; that's all a criminal SIN is. If you have one, and it gets linked to your REAL SIN, then your real SIN is also a "criminal SIN".

SIN's are tied to biometric data. A fake SIN is tied to biometric data that was inserted inot the "secure" database via hacking, bribary, govt corruption, whatever. Its rating corresponds to how easy this data insertion is to pick up on via cross checks, log inquiries, and the "google factor". Basically, a good fake SIN has lots or corraborating evidence in lots of secure (and non secure) databanks, while a crappy one ammounts to some DMV employee plugging in the numbers for some guy who otherwise has no record of ever having existed.
nemafow
Same ideas I had, but wasnt sure if it was a SIN CARD, or a SIN stored via electronic information.
FriendoftheDork
I gotta disagree about the criminal SIN part. A person with a Criminal SIN is a probationary citizen with very limited rights.He has gotten it from being arrested and having no valid SIN, thus a temporary SIN is created to keep track of the felon. Now this is NOT the same as if an upstanding SINner committed a felony and got sentenced. Sure, it will be in his records, but he's still considered a full citizen. Ok maybe lose some voting right and checked for any firearms purchases, who knows. But he won't have hassle just to ride the Monorail, and I'd think in most jurisdictions he'd retain all rights and attempted to be integrated back into society.

For a criminal SINner to do the same he'd have to apply for a regular SIN. His sentence would still be recorded, and probably also the fact that he has failed to comply with registration previously (assuming their is no SINless amnesty at this time). If this actually works, thanks to alot of bribes, or alot of patience and dumb sheer luck, he would actually become a regular SINner (basically reducing the flaw and spending 10 karma).

Oh and for the main topic: SINs are generally stored electronically. Physical identities may be used for other IDs, but SINs and Licenses are generally stored on your commlink (and stored in major databases).

Also, the info on the comlink is probably just the actualy SIN number and a verification credential, while the actual information details are stored in the databases. Verification systems reads the SIN, checks the credentials and compare it to a database it has access to.
Stahlseele
You can get a SIN from any bigger Corporation usually. If you work for them, at least.
It does not have to be government applied. But depending on how the world works, it might not be legit in all places.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Mar 9 2010, 05:57 PM) *
I gotta disagree about the criminal SIN part. A person with a Criminal SIN is a probationary citizen with very limited rights.

QUOTE (Shadowrun 4 Anniversary p.96)
At 10 BP, the character has a criminal SIN, meaning
that the character also has a verifiable criminal record on file, and likely served prison time
in the past.


A Criminal SIN is exactly that - a SIN with an associated, verifiable, criminal record. There is no "limited rights" crap, or anything else you have said. Mongoose is quite accurate on how Criminal SINs work.
nemafow
Quick question, if indeed the SIN is stored electronically, and you do not own/have a commlink (god forbid if you didnt, maybe you got robbed) how can lonestar/knight errant (depending on timeline) issue you a temporary SIN if you can't display it anywhere? Or can they even search a database if you insist you have one, but dont have a commlink to transmit that information?

I was always the impression that the SIN was on a small data card, that can be plugged into a commlink or other device, and can be scanned like a manual creditcard/license.
Muspellsheimr
If you are in a location that requires a SIN broadcast, and you fail to do so, you will be 'pulled over'. If you then broadcast your SIN, you may be let off with a warning, or simply ticketed. If you are unable to broadcast your SIN, you will be scanned (probably fingerprinting, possibly blood test) to identify you, followed by ticketing & removal from the area. If such scanning fails to identify you, you will be arrested, taken to the station, & booked; in the process, you will be given a SIN (most likely criminal). That is, of course, assuming the officer is not a dick - if you don't have a SIN, you don't exist, & the officer can do nearly anything he wants without fear of legal repercussions - the same applies if your SIN is identified as fake, & you have no real SIN to present.

Similar will apply if you are ever caught in a crime or similar.
Saint Sithney
Since the SIN tracks movement through purchases and such, wouldn't a person with 3 SINs need to purchase 3 people's worth of food and other necessity stuff in order to keep the charade up? How common is it for someone to just drop off the grid and then reappear here or there? How would that affect a SIN check? Maybe such higher-level forgeries have built in algorithms to create fake histories within the system so that a SIN appears up to date? Then, what happens to a for a real SIN present due to the SINner quality? Would a SIN-carrying runner have to pay someone to fake records so that they look like normal citizens, or would the SINner in question be expected to live the majority of their life under their legit identity?
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Mar 10 2010, 02:07 AM) *
A Criminal SIN is exactly that - a SIN with an associated, verifiable, criminal record. There is no "limited rights" crap, or anything else you have said. Mongoose is quite accurate on how Criminal SINs work.


Hmm maybe I misunderstood the text.. especially this part:

"If you lack a SIN, many activities that normal citizens
take for granted become impossible for you. For example, you
need a SIN to get a legal job, open a bank account, own property,
go to school, rent an apartment, establish utility services,
and so forth. Most importantly, a SIN is now required for any
form of legal travel—including just buying a bus ticket. Even
those with criminal SINs will find it difficult to perform many
of these activities without red tape and hassle
."

In this chapter it talks about you getting issued a Criminal SIN if you're caught SINless, and then how being SINless and having a Criminal SIN both means you have difficulties functioning in normal society. Thus I assumed that Having a Criminal SIN was not the same as having a criminal record .

But if you are right then it means getting convicted for a felony can make it impossible for you to be anything but a criminal - in which case the whole idea of redemption/reintegration has been discarded. However that's fairly stupid as anyone who can't get a job or even ride the bus will have to turn to criminal means.
Stahlseele
Technically, being SIN-Less IS illegal itself.
Daylen
just because things can be tracked doesnt mean they are. not everyone buys food. how many couples are there where only one of them does grocery shopping? also how many people still use paper money (if you say there is none please give a raw to back it up, I cant find anywhere that says paper money and coins are not used anymore)?
Muspellsheimr
Even
those with criminal SINs will find it difficult to perform many
of these activities without red tape and hassle.


Someone without a SIN cannot do any of that. Someone with a Criminal SIN will have difficulties with acquiring legal jobs, for example. That is how it is currently - convicted felons are often unable to get jobs because of their criminal record, among other things.

A Criminal SIN is a SIN with an associated criminal record. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Daylen
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Mar 10 2010, 02:48 AM) *
But if you are right then it means getting convicted for a felony can make it impossible for you to be anything but a criminal - in which case the whole idea of redemption/reintegration has been discarded. However that's fairly stupid as anyone who can't get a job or even ride the bus will have to turn to criminal means.


what else would you expect from a dystopian themed setting? a big part of cyberpunk is the theme of dystopia. think Orwells 1984 with cyberware, and in sr a little magic.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Mar 10 2010, 02:59 AM) *
Even
those with criminal SINs will find it difficult to perform many
of these activities without red tape and hassle.


Someone without a SIN cannot do any of that. Someone with a Criminal SIN will have difficulties with acquiring legal jobs, for example. That is how it is currently - convicted felons are often unable to get jobs because of their criminal record, among other things.

A Criminal SIN is a SIN with an associated criminal record. Nothing more. Nothing less.


Hmmm yeah maybe I read too much into it. I'd let them ride the bus and the 'rail in SR without hassle though! But getting jobs might be problematic, except for generally low-status ones with limited security risks. Cleaning, Fast food chains, and similar I suppose.

Daylen I'm guessing reintegration is still a goal for the UCAS government but a practical problem because the employers discriminate against them, and banks hesitate to give out loans. However I suppose there is no legal problem with Criminal SINners to get a job... in which case all SINless people can fairly easily get Criminal SINs and then have a a chance at the real life. Sure, employers will still be able to see that Mr. Cool was SINless for a few months ago and might be suspicious, but not as bad as with those who have "murdered a bus full of nuns."
Daylen
in UCAS I could buy that, in CAS I'm not so sure, I would think it would have some variation by country. I would expect disfunction one way or the other. For a real twist I could see a few countries requireing employers to hire those with a criminal SIN for a whole new method of dystopia.
Cardul
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Mar 9 2010, 10:08 PM) *
Daylen I'm guessing reintegration is still a goal for the UCAS government but a practical problem because the employers discriminate against them, and banks hesitate to give out loans. However I suppose there is no legal problem with Criminal SINners to get a job... in which case all SINless people can fairly easily get Criminal SINs and then have a a chance at the real life. Sure, employers will still be able to see that Mr. Cool was SINless for a few months ago and might be suspicious, but not as bad as with those who have "murdered a bus full of nuns."


Problem with that is 1) You are sinless, you have no rights. 2) If you are SINLess, you do not legally exist.
This means you can forget about trial by Jury. Heck, you might not even make it to the Lone Star Station!
(Knight Errant, at least, you will make it to the station, and THEN disappear...while the Star cop that arrested
you might just sell you to Tanamous for some extra money and to avoid the paperwork of arresting a SINLess).
Ghremdal
I don't know where I read this, I could have swore it is a official rulebook but I couldn't find it later. Anyway I read that fake SINs that are not in constant use degrade in time, and that shadow services charge 10% of a SINs value to keep it up from degrading with fake data (purchases, fake rent payments, etc.). For the Shadowrunner that probably means he has to fork over additional cash every month or those "I need to leave the country now!" backup prisitine fake SINs might not function as well anymore.

A question: Lets say a shadowrunner is a SINer (with a corp), and has several fake SINs tied to his biometric data. For some reason or other someone goes to run his biometric data through the systems. Which SIN will turn up, or will all of them?
Stahlseele
Can't believe nobody wrote this yet:
"A SIN is the first step towards hell"
*rincewinds*
Dakka Dakka
You are right, and in Germany we already got it - the SteuerIdentifiaktionsNummer (Tax Identification Number).

Kumo
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 10 2010, 04:19 AM) *
Since the SIN tracks movement through purchases and such, wouldn't a person with 3 SINs need to purchase 3 people's worth of food and other necessity stuff in order to keep the charade up? How common is it for someone to just drop off the grid and then reappear here or there? How would that affect a SIN check?


Food/necessity stuff - only if the person is really paranoid or if GM is really nasty. The System is IMO so large and complicated that it's impossible to track every detail about every person. If someone (LS/KE "White Hat", for example) checks your fake SIN, he can find such things. But even then the only thing he knows is that the SIN is probably a fake (and what was done with use of the SIN, of course). Normal scan shouldn't dig so deep in the databases - but it probably check where do you live, work etc.

QUOTE
Maybe such higher-level forgeries have built in algorithms to create fake histories within the system so that a SIN appears up to date? Then, what happens to a for a real SIN present due to the SINner quality? Would a SIN-carrying runner have to pay someone to fake records so that they look like normal citizens, or would the SINner in question be expected to live the majority of their life under their legit identity?


Both SINs will "live their lives" - the runner can pretend a "good citizen" with his original SIN, until the SIN is connected to some crimes - than the cops will find him very, very fast. And a fake SIN is used only when the runner does something illegal (like buying a ticket when going to target, for example).

EDIT:
@Dakka Dakka:
We are, err, better... Every adult in Poland has PESEL (Powszechny Elektroniczny System Ewidencji Ludności - General Electonic System of Evidence of Population). It works very similar to SIN - not having one is illegal and you need it to do most things in any office - to make a driver license, to open a business, to open a bank account... It's always a 11-digit number, including a person's birthdate.

And we still have a "report duty", which means each citizen is officialy connected with his abiding place; but it probably will be abolished in a near time.
Ascalaphus
The problem with SINs is that there are different ideas at work in the fluff. At the one side, there's talk about people being SINless against their will. They're not really citizens and so forth. Apparently it's a fairly large part of the population.

On the other side, corporations are supposed to restrict themselves to your SIN to track you as a (potential) customer.

Huh? Corporations ignore a large market segment because the State doesn't want to register them as citizens?


So here's how I handle it:
- Your SIN is your citizenship. It's linked to a (semi-) sovereign entity like a country or an AA/AAA corporation. It entitles you to civil rights. Some entities allow you to have SINs with other entities (Ares+UCAS perhaps), while others can't be combined (Tir Tairngire and Aztlan).
- Without any SIN at all, you're a legal unperson. You're not even an illegal Mexican; you're just illegal, without even being a Mexican. Some countries give you some provisional civil rights, while others don't.
- Corporations have their own systems for tracking consumers, based on what they manage to find out through ubiquitous spyware, RFIDs, facial and gait recognition and so forth. If they can figure out your SIN, that'll be added to your file, but you don't need a SIN to have a file.
- Discovering that you have a fake SIN, or no SIN at all, isn't very hard; but that doesn't mean anybody does anything about it. Countries don't see the need to grant civil rights to undesirables. If you're rich though, you could buy a SIN.
- There are rather a LOT of undesirables without SINs. Something like 40% of the population on average. Getting rid of them is impractical, and besides, they can't sue you for faulty products, making them an attractive market. Only when a SINless person annoys the State does the police care; at that point they can do more or less what they want.
KCKitsune
OK, sorta on topic, but not so much: The Erased Positive Quality... which version do you people get (have seen taken) and why.
Sengir
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Mar 10 2010, 01:19 PM) *
You are right, and in Germany we already got it - the SteuerIdentifiaktionsNummer (Tax Identification Number).

I'd rather compare a SIN to you ID card number: The number itself is not your identity/citizenship and neither is the card, however both are tied to the government records of you existence, residence (registration at your place of residence is mandatory), citizenship, children yadda yadda.
The difference is that in real life the data about your marriage is not connected to your criminal record, even tough both apply to the same ID...at least officially they won't do that. Furthermore, many insitutions use different IDs - the average German has an ID number, tax number, health insurance number, pension insurance number, military service number (if male and over 18), 30 different customer numbers...in Shadowrun, the SIN is all that and the data is correlated all the time.
nemafow
So is the general consensus that your SIN is stored electronically on a government/corporation data bank, and a local electronic copy on your commlink to comply with local laws (ie it must be broadcast ect) ?

By that token, how does one have multiple fake SINs on the same commlink, can it be done?
Is it literally just a program you 'boot and turn off' when you need to change identities?

How does one legally replace their commlink without losing their SIN details?
Would you need to go to some government/corporate department to have it loaded up again, or would the user have the power to load it onto another commlink?

This is the kind of stuff that never made any sense to me regarding SINs, and thats why I interpreted having a small keycard that can be inserted/removed from commlinks and be used as a physical SIN/license as required.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (nemafow @ Mar 11 2010, 12:58 AM) *
So is the general consensus that your SIN is stored electronically on a government/corporation data bank, and a local electronic copy on your commlink to comply with local laws (ie it must be broadcast ect) ?
In certain locales, yes.

QUOTE (nemafow @ Mar 11 2010, 12:58 AM) *
By that token, how does one have multiple fake SINs on the same commlink, can it be done?
Is it literally just a program you 'boot and turn off' when you need to change identities?

How does one legally replace their commlink without losing their SIN details?
Would you need to go to some government/corporate department to have it loaded up again, or would the user have the power to load it onto another commlink?
It is probably not more complicated than a user-/nickname change. Broadcasting more than one SIN at a time may not be possible and is generally inadvisable.
Tyro
The way I figure it, you have multiple commlinks with a single SIN on each (one active at a time), you have specialized software on your commlink which lets you switch which SIN is broadcasting, or some combination of both. The way I generally set up my SINs, even if a check were to be made on my biometrics, they would only find the SIN I wanted them to. This is accomplished in two ways: First, low-level SINs don't have my real biometrics. If I'm buying something at Stuffer Shack, I input my PIN and don't need a fingerprint or other biometric verification. Second, my higher-level SINs tend to be stored on servers belonging to people who don't get along. For example, I might have one SIN registered with Lone Star and another with Ares. Or one in the UCAS diplomatic corps (they don't give personal info on agents to just anyone!) and another as an ordinary citizen of Denver. If Denver checks her biometrics, they won't have access to the system where her UCAS diplomatic SIN is stored. In the case of that particular character, the reverse would probably never happen - the diplomatic SIN is R6 (restricted gear ftw).
nemafow
Hi guys, thanks for the above comments, cleared it all up for me, appreciate it.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Tyro @ Mar 11 2010, 01:22 AM) *
The way I figure it, you have multiple commlinks with a single SIN on each (one active at a time), you have specialized software on your commlink which lets you switch which SIN is broadcasting, or some combination of both. The way I generally set up my SINs, even if a check were to be made on my biometrics, they would only find the SIN I wanted them to. This is accomplished in two ways: First, low-level SINs don't have my real biometrics. If I'm buying something at Stuffer Shack, I input my PIN and don't need a fingerprint or other biometric verification. Second, my higher-level SINs tend to be stored on servers belonging to people who don't get along. For example, I might have one SIN registered with Lone Star and another with Ares. Or one in the UCAS diplomatic corps (they don't give personal info on agents to just anyone!) and another as an ordinary citizen of Denver. If Denver checks her biometrics, they won't have access to the system where her UCAS diplomatic SIN is stored. In the case of that particular character, the reverse would probably never happen - the diplomatic SIN is R6 (restricted gear ftw).


But... the book mentions a interational SIN registry that most countries and Megas have to send SIN data to. I don't know about any diplomatic SINs (what's what from?) In any case, for an Ares SIN to be valid for use in UCAS, the authorities in UCAS must be allowed to access certain information about it, which might include biometrics.

Also, this does not explain the problem of having a SIN (fake or otherwise) in the authorities records when you're trying to use another one. Unless I'm misunderstood something about the setting, biometric readers and even DNA samples are used to verify identities. Sure, not the Stuffer Shack checker, but possibly at airports, high securty facilities, or when creating bank accounts. There are augmentations that can help of course, but is it supposed to be necessary for Runners to get through checkpoints at all?
Saint Sithney
Well, it's more likely they check your biometric against those listed on the SIN rather than check the entire SIN database against your biometrics. In other words, as long as what's in you matches up with what the ID says you should have in you, it's alright. The problems with genetic redundancy amongst a population of billions is probably not worth the resources to check.
LivingOxymoron
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 9 2010, 05:00 PM) *
You can get a SIN from any bigger Corporation usually. If you work for them, at least.
It does not have to be government applied. But depending on how the world works, it might not be legit in all places.


Hell, the Pueblo Corporate Council will issue you a valid, national-level SIN if you buy a single share of PCC stock (in my game currently worth about 243 nuyen).
Tyro
QUOTE (LivingOxymoron @ Mar 10 2010, 09:54 PM) *
Hell, the Pueblo Corporate Council will issue you a valid, national-level SIN if you buy a single share of PCC stock (in my game currently worth about 243 nuyen).

How do you figure its value?
LivingOxymoron
QUOTE (Tyro @ Mar 10 2010, 09:56 PM) *
How do you figure its value?


At the time in the game that it came up? (For the runner who had no fake SIN and couldn't get one in time to get into the PCC), I just made it up. That's about double the cost of entry visa fees in the UK.

However, since he now owns a share of PCC stock, I'm pegging it to the price of Birkshire Hathaway Class A Shares (BRK-A), since that fund has averaged about 18.8% annual growth over its lifetime. Canon states that the PCC has constantly outperformed the S&P 500 and earned ~18% average per year since the crash.

So if he ever bothers to ask me how much its worth in the future, I'll know how to calculate it.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 10 2010, 07:37 AM) *
OK, sorta on topic, but not so much: The Erased Positive Quality... which version do you people get (have seen taken) and why.

Took the 24 hour version. Faster and more complete loss of undesired data. Heck, it'll even burn any SIN (real or fake) from existence... As long as the quality is paid off first. If you want next to nothing in the way of information (save the very basics to function in society), it's gone.
LivingOxymoron
Here's how I've run it in my game:

Checking your SIN involves 3 components:

First, is the actual SIN itself, ie UCAS23433566-51/12A (taken from SR4A Pg. 273), as well as the metadata which provides basic information and biometrics (height, weight, etc). This file is contained on a commlink, as a read-only file which is created or uploaded by a government or corporate agency authorized to do such. Once on a commlink, the file is unalterable by the average citizen. Hackers can alter it, but an alteration on the link itself places it out of sync with the greater system and are easily detected.

Second, is checking the biometric data on associated with your SIN file on your commlink against what can be gathered by the man and machine doing the checking. A Point-Of-Sale machine at the Stuffer Shack or You Should Not Eat So Much! might only use a visual analyzer to determine if the 5'11" Male Ork is paying with a 'link associated with a 4'8" female Dwarf. Maybe they use a thumb print scanner. High Security Areas might also have a DNA analyzer as well.

Third, and this is where the real checking takes place: That SIN and gathered biometric data is sent to a data clearing house, similar to a credit check, to be cross-referenced for validity. The rating of the system determines the number of randomized data trails that can be analyzed simultaneously, and the types of databases it has access to. For example, John Smith (our "Licensed Holistic Chiropractor" from SR4A, Pg. 273 again) is attempting to rent an apartment in Seattle. The apartment manager's SIN reader has locally matched his biometrics to the SIN and information on his commlink. Now, it puts a request out to see where that number has been used before. If SIN UCAS23433566-51/12A comes back as being used to open a bank account in UCAS Federal Savings Bank two days ago, but by a female Dwarf, then the system flags an anomaly and will attempt to seek other data. Too many anomalies and the system will reject the SIN. Again, the rating of the system is how many of these checks it is able to do, and the level of secure data it is able to access for cross-checking. Conversely, the rating of the SIN represents how many of these false signatures have been placed in the wider system to ensure a maximum number of false positives.

Creating fake SINs is so specialized because the forgers have access to one other important piece of information: the algorithms used to cross-check the data. With this, a forgery ring knows WHERE to seed false data into the system in order to ensure a high probability of that data being accessed; ie certain types of bank accounts, passport data, etc.
Dakka Dakka
IIRC only criiminal SINs have biometric data associated with it.
LivingOxymoron
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Mar 10 2010, 10:37 PM) *
IIRC only criiminal SINs have biometric data associated with it.


Unwired, Page 96:

QUOTE
A SIN contains biometric and identifying data that a character doesn't want to fall into the wrong hands, and can only be stripped of such incriminating data.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (LivingOxymoron @ Mar 11 2010, 06:54 AM) *
Hell, the Pueblo Corporate Council will issue you a valid, national-level SIN if you buy a single share of PCC stock (in my game currently worth about 243 nuyen).

Question: How did you let him buy this stock without a valid SIN to begin with? O.o
Kumo
QUOTE (nemafow @ Mar 11 2010, 02:58 AM) *
By that token, how does one have multiple fake SINs on the same commlink, can it be done?
Is it literally just a program you 'boot and turn off' when you need to change identities?

How does one legally replace their commlink without losing their SIN details?
Would you need to go to some government/corporate department to have it loaded up again, or would the user have the power to load it onto another commlink?

This is the kind of stuff that never made any sense to me regarding SINs, and thats why I interpreted having a small keycard that can be inserted/removed from commlinks and be used as a physical SIN/license as required.


You probably could have a few "inactive" SINs stored on commlink (but if someone search the device, he wil find them). But you can also save them on optical chips or in a secure node, and download on commlink as you need. It's still not 100% safe, but what in a 6th World is?
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 11 2010, 03:00 AM) *
Question: How did you let him buy this stock without a valid SIN to begin with? O.o


Credstick?
Ascalaphus
The NAN book has a very interesting bit of text about how to become a Pueblo citizen. It's pretty hard; they only want you if you have work skills that they don't have enough of. (Usually high-end technology skills that they always want more of.) Joining the PCC is not a basic human right; it's a privilege. Shares go for about 8000, but there's more to it; first you have to apply for citizenship, and as a condition for getting citizenship, you have to buy at least one share.
DireRadiant
SIN Verification involves matching pieces of data across various systems.

Let's imagine we have SIN1 and SIN2.
We also have fingerprint A.
And finally we have 3 CorpGovSIN Data Systems ARES, UCAS, and PCC.

Possible Scenarios
Joe Runner tells Leo Copper that his identity is SIN1.
Leo Copper asks ARES, Does SIN1 exist. ARES says yes.

Joe Runner tells Leo Copper that his identity is SIN1.
Leo Copper scans Joe Runners fingerprint.
Leo Copper asks ARES, Does SIN1 exis and does he have this fingerprint. ARES says yes.

Leo Copper arrives at the crime scene and lifts a fingerprint.
Leo Copper asks ARES, who does this fingerprint belong to?
ARES says that fingerprint belongs to SIN1.

Leo Copper arrives at the crime scene and lifts a fingerprint.
Leo Copper asks UCAS, who does this fingerprint belong to?
UCAS says that fingerprint belongs to some unknown person.

Joe Runner tells Leo Copper that his identity is SIN1.
Leo Copper asks UCAS, Does SIN1 exist. UCAS says no.

Joe Runner tells Leo Copper that his identity is SIN1.
Leo Copper asks PCC, Does SIN1 exist. PCC says you are not authorized to know that Leo Copper since you are not a PCC Law Enforcement Officer.

Leo Copper arrives at the crime scene and lifts a fingerprint.
Leo Copper asks ARES, UCAS, and PCC, who does this fingerprint belong to?
ARES says that fingerprint belongs to SIN1.
UCAS says that fingerprint belongs to nobody.
PCC says what fingerprint?

Joe Runner tells Leo Copper that his identity is SIN2.
Leo Copper asks UCAS, Does SIN1 exist. UCAS says no.
Joe Runner tells Leo Copper, no no, SIN2 you idiot.
Leo Copper smacks himself and asks UCAS, Does SIN2 exist?
UCAS says, of course, he's a righteous citizen let him do his work.


Joe Runner has two SINs!
One is an ARES SIN that will match his fingerprint.
One is an UCAS SIN that will not match his fingerprint!
He doesn't have a PCC SIN, bor any fingerprints in PCC!

Substitute SIN systems and biometric data as needed for your game.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Mar 11 2010, 09:16 PM) *
SIN Verification involves matching pieces of data across various systems.

Let's imagine SNIP


OK I must admit I don't quite follow your trail of thought here. Is both SIN1 and SIN2 registered with fingerprint A? Is any of those SINs real?

Why can't "Cooper" get any data from PCC? Any special rules from them? I'm fairly certain a policeman today can check with another nation of person with Passport if he's the real deal. Also, Interpol probably has access to multiple databases.

Also this explanation does not take into account the Global SIN Registry (GSINR):

"National and corporate SIN registries are required to share their data
with the GSINR, but otherwise they keep the data confidential,
only making it available to law enforcement and other
appropriate agencies."

Seems to me a law officer may validate a SIN or check a print according to the GSINR... and could thus easily get more than one match, which could be suspicious.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Mar 11 2010, 05:43 PM) *
OK I must admit I don't quite follow your trail of thought here. Is both SIN1 and SIN2 registered with fingerprint A? Is any of those SINs real?


Excellent question. What exactly does make an identity "real"? If your data requests all return matches, but that person doesn't exist, would they be real? For example if you submit a SIN number and a name and you get a match, does it really mean the person actually exists? Or simply that you've gotten a data match? What does it take to prove someone is real? Frankly you need to verify in both directions. For all pieces of data someone needs to go out and verify it, and for all people, you need to verify the the system. This is very expensive. Mistakes happen, work doesn't get done, since most of the time it's "good enough".

QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Mar 11 2010, 05:43 PM) *
Why can't "Cooper" get any data from PCC? Any special rules from them? I'm fairly certain a policeman today can check with another nation of person with Passport if he's the real deal. Also, Interpol probably has access to multiple databases.


Yep, and it's Interpol stopping for that traffic stop every time.... There isn't a global police organization, it's as diverse and separated as the SRuniverse.

QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Mar 11 2010, 05:43 PM) *
Why can't "Cooper" get any data from PCC? Any special rules from them? I'm fairly certain a policeman today can check with another nation of person with Passport if he's the real deal. Also, Interpol probably has access to multiple databases.

Also this explanation does not take into account the Global SIN Registry (GSINR):

"National and corporate SIN registries are required to share their data
with the GSINR, but otherwise they keep the data confidential,
only making it available to law enforcement and other
appropriate agencies."


So there are levels of confidentiality and restricted data access? Says so right there. Why does your Law Enforcement Officer get it and other not? Because everyone loves and trusts each other and each other governments? I'm sure CAS and Aztlan happily share all their deep dark citizens data completely with each other.

Specifically you need to consider that while each Corp/Nation must of course share basic SIN numbers with each other for the simple reason people will need to travel in other jurisdictions, this does not mean in any way whatsoever that the entire set of data is shared, or is accessible to all. Consider the difference between Aztlan verifying that a CAS SIN exists, and then whether or not an Aztlan request for that individuals DNA profile and medical history might be honored.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Mar 12 2010, 01:10 AM) *
Excellent question. What exactly does make an identity "real"? If your data requests all return matches, but that person doesn't exist, would they be real? For example if you submit a SIN number and a name and you get a match, does it really mean the person actually exists? Or simply that you've gotten a data match? What does it take to prove someone is real? Frankly you need to verify in both directions. For all pieces of data someone needs to go out and verify it, and for all people, you need to verify the the system. This is very expensive. Mistakes happen, work doesn't get done, since most of the time it's "good enough".



Yep, and it's Interpol stopping for that traffic stop every time.... There isn't a global police organization, it's as diverse and separated as the SRuniverse.



So there are levels of confidentiality and restricted data access? Says so right there. Why does your Law Enforcement Officer get it and other not? Because everyone loves and trusts each other and each other governments? I'm sure CAS and Aztlan happily share all their deep dark citizens data completely with each other.

Specifically you need to consider that while each Corp/Nation must of course share basic SIN numbers with each other for the simple reason people will need to travel in other jurisdictions, this does not mean in any way whatsoever that the entire set of data is shared, or is accessible to all. Consider the difference between Aztlan verifying that a CAS SIN exists, and then whether or not an Aztlan request for that individuals DNA profile and medical history might be honored.


What's a real SIN? One that isn't fake smile.gif In other words, one that has not been created with false data. I think even ones issued by a government can be "fake", in the case of covert operatives, or in my previous game, by the FBI as a reward to a group of runners (Rating 7 SIN). This kind of fake SIN was so good, that if someone detected a faul they would think reality was wrong and the SIN was right wink.gif

But in this case the relevant difference is that the real SIN (by taking the quality) would mean you had detailed data including biometrics and DNA data stored, while the fake ones may lack it. Thus doing an identity check could very well cause you to turn up with the real SIN rather than the fake one you'd want to use. This would also mean you could get charged with offering false data to a police officer.


As for the GSINR I thought it contained all the data, but according to Feral Cities it only contains name, DoB, PoB and picture ID. No fingerprint, no biometrics, no secret data. In which case I can see why there is a problem with properly identifying foreigners. Such as runners with fake SIN from Aztech...
Kumo
To pass any control with a forged ID (including SIN) you make Opposed Test, using fake ID rating against a verification system's rating. I believe that:
- fake ID's rating means how deep are forged data implemented into global system;
- verification system's rating means how deep does that system dig into global system to verify data.
So more sophisticated verification system will check more data, with lesser chance of mistake. But there is still so much data stored, changing, flowing that verification is never 100% certain (so it's possible to pass a very advanced system with a poorly forged ID - if you are lucky).
Dakka Dakka
On the other hand even the best fake can be found out with the lowest rating scanner, if you are unlucky. I prefer Rotbart's houserule, where the fake rating is a threshold rather than an opposing dice pool.
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