is encephalon really worthwhile? Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, I've done some programing, and know full well from personal experience that a high Logic stat is absurdly important in writing a program. It is also important in using a program. Yes, it is how well you know how to use programs, but that is based very much on how smart you are. Grab someone in the lower 5 percentile and someone in the upper 5 percentile that both know nothing about a computer, and start teaching them to use a computer. I am utterly confident that the person in the upper 5 percentile will be better faster at using the program. Seems that logic somehow affects you're ability to use a program. So yeah, intellect is not taken out of the equation by better software. If you're ability to use the software (Skill) matters at all, then how smart you are will also matter because how good you are at using the skill, is based on how high your stat is.

You know... I have seen Elementary School Children with their relatively undeveloped intellect run circles around High School Students (and even Adults) when it comes to computers and modern day electronics... and yet, the Adult (at least; and probably the High School Student) have a much more developed intellect than the Grade School Child does... so obviously, Skill means more than Stat, at least on some level...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

[X-Kalibur]

We base IQ on age as well, however. So it's very likely those kids are still "smarter". Not to mention that children are generally more able to adapt to learning and new technology.

[LurkerOutThere]

Hokay, so I don't think your getting what i'm trying to say, once I bridge that gap i'm perfectly fine if you don't agree. I certainly wouldn't want to play a hacker in your game in that case because i'd ahve to play a pimply nerd who can't do anything else because I need to dump a bunch of points into a stat that's barely used to be even sort of effective at my job and to fit your preconcieved notions

No, it isn't. But it is hardly a sammy's fault that agility is important to hitting things. Does that mean we should remove agility from combat? Seems rather unfair that people need to be strong to hit someone else hard doesn't it? Maybe we should take strength out of the melee damage calculation. And what's with that whole 'body determines how much damage you can take and armor you can wear'? May as well get rid of that too.

Your analogy doesn't hold because your fix doesn't fit. There is more then one way to a hit someone, a sammy with 1 strength can still shoot people with a gun just fine and can and does ignore strength. A sammy that uses a melee weapon can lessen their need on strength. Hackers do not have a side option to pursue and even if a hacker is a mensa spanking genius (6 or 7 intel) they've only managed to give themselves a basic chance at succeeding on any sort of hack on the fly for a basic user account.

You're right, I have a preexisting biased that being good at what is perhaps the single most logical thing on the planet, should require you have a high logic to be good at it.

Every time you put something like this in I just have to shake my head. First off Real Life hacking, has nothing whatsoever to do with shadowrun hacking, just put it out of your mind, it will hurt less the more you dig into IT and hacking. Having said that high intelligence isn't terribly important in RW hacking if your scripting or using other peoples tools. Coding your own tools and zero day exploits does take quite a bit of skill and presumably brain power but in the setup that SR uses software and skill really do replace raw brain power. I know a lot of people who arn't the sharpest knives in the drawer but are really good at their chosen field. Are you smug about Hacking or IT that you think it is any differnet? Because i know more then a few decent to good programmers and Sys Admin's who really arn't going to win any intel contests.

I have no idea what you're talking about with mages. There are multiple traditions, each one of which requires a particular high stat (Log, Int, or Cha) required to be able to resist the drain well. So yeah, mages are already required to have a particular stat high.

A stat of their choosing, at most gaming groups i've sat Cha based casters outnumber logic ones almost 2 to 1 because of the utility of Charisma over Logic. Hackers are stuck with logic, and as stated above you'd require maxed int to even begin to have a chance on most decently secured systems.

Sammies are required to have high physical stats. I don't see what sort of point you're trying to draw here at all. I especially don't see the point of picking a random stat to do a completely random thing.

Actually i've seen more then a few sammy types with pretty run of the mil stats and make up for it with ware so your point isn't quite accurate and as I pointed out above sammies do have quite a bit of choice in how they go about their business. Under your system hackers are essentially locked in to the huge waste of points that is logic.

Again I'm not picking a random stat to do a random thing, I'm picking the stat that governs the skill to somehow have an effect on that skill, just like every other skill in the game does.

No your picking the stat associated with the skill and your applying it in a ridiculous manner that's inconsistent with the rest of the system based on some vaguely held offense that there could be a dumb hacker somewhere.

Yeah, I've done some programing, and know full well from personal experience that a high Logic stat is absurdly important in writing a program...

The converse of that, delete every semblence of every IDE and disconnect your computer from any kind of online reference especially google. Now write anything with any level of complexity and tell me that software doesn't make a difference

I don't have a problem with a hacker having high physical stats, but I do have a problem with a hacker being mentally retarded in order to do so and yet not suffering in their ability to use a logic linked skill.

Do you really see this happening so much that your fix is to essentially break hacking for anyone that doesn't have maxed intel, for pretty much making Hacking impossible for Ork's and Trolls?

[pbangarth]

Effective immediately your shiny new blood mage now has her hits at spell casting capped by (rolls a die) strength.

The hits of a spell are indeed capped, not by some Attribute, but by the Force of the spell, which is a darn good analogue for the Rating of the program a hacker might use.

[pbangarth]

Do you really see this happening so much that your fix is to essentially break hacking for anyone that doesn't have maxed intel, for pretty much making Hacking impossible for Ork's and Trolls?

If a magician can be a decent spellcaster with Magic 4, why can a hacker not be a decent spoofer with a Logic of 4?

If a magician has to have both Magic and Willpower and one other mental Attribute at decent levels, why is it so tough on hackers to be required to have one mental Attribute at decent level?

[LurkerOutThere]

Magician needs 1 hit to get a spell off regardless of force. Hacker needs anywhere from 1-7 to get onto a base system as a user and the numbers could be as high as 9 or 12 if they want any decent level access. Magicians hits on rolls are uncapped, it's comparing apples to oranges in a very real sense.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Anyway, I liked the idea of using stat + skill + tool (program) for the matrix rolls, I'll check with Garou to see if he is willing to give it a try in our games and see how it goes, of course the thresholds should be increased, but by what number? 2 maybe? Also, how agents would be ruled, their stat would be equal to their rating, just like skill giving a total of rating x2 + tool (program)?

[pbangarth]

Magician needs 1 hit to get a spell off regardless of force. Hacker needs anywhere from 1-7 to get onto a base system as a user and the numbers could be as high as 9 or 12 if they want any decent level access. Magicians hits on rolls are uncapped, it's comparing apples to oranges in a very real sense.

But 1 hit is often useless in magic, as in hacking, because magic is usually a resisted roll. Magic needs net hits in the range of 5+ with a middling Force spell to take out an opponent before he shoots back, add 4 or 5 to that if the target is a machine. Speaking of Force (and therefore Drain) magicians need three good Attributes because magic burns them. Magicians' hits are capped, by the Force of the spell.

There are many functional parallels between apples and oranges, too. Apples and oranges are both fruit, both round, both obey the laws of gravity, both rot ....

[Karoline]

We base IQ on age as well, however. So it's very likely those kids are still "smarter". Not to mention that children are generally more able to adapt to learning and new technology.

Correct, IQ is basically a constant and doesn't change with age. It is thus entirely possible that a child could have a far higher IQ than an adult, just as likely as the adult having a higher IQ than the child or the adult having a higher IQ than another adult. TJ, you're mixing up IQ and experience. True, an adult will have more experience and thus better be able to, on a random question, answer better because the adult has more experience to bring to the table than the child.

In the case of computer use though, with as pervasive as computers are among children, a large chunk of their experience comes from computers, and so may have a similar experience bank as far as computers are concerned. More to the point, as X-Kalibur said, children tend to learn things faster than adults, and so generally if you stick a kid and adult in rooms and teach them to use a computer (Same IQ) the kid is likely to learn faster purely based on the fact that the kid is younger and thus learns quicker (It's how we're wired).

Hokay, so I don't think your getting what i'm trying to say, once I bridge that gap i'm perfectly fine if you don't agree. I certainly wouldn't want to play a hacker in your game in that case because i'd ahve to play a pimply nerd who can't do anything else because I need to dump a bunch of points into a stat that's barely used to be even sort of effective at my job and to fit your preconcieved notions

No, I'm saying you need a single stat to be decent at hacking. Never said you couldn't have good physical stats. Like I said before, I don't think that asking a character to have a high logic in order to be good at a logic based skill is alot to ask. A sammy needs to have a good agility to be good at shooting a gun or stabbing people, yet I don't hear you complain that a sammy needs to be agile in order to be good at her job.

Your analogy doesn't hold because your fix doesn't fit. There is more then one way to a hit someone, a sammy with 1 strength can still shoot people with a gun just fine and can and does ignore strength.

In which case you aren't playing a melee sammy any more, you're playing something else. Kind of like if you have a low logic, you likely aren't playing a hacker.

A sammy that uses a melee weapon can lessen their need on strength. Hackers do not have a side option to pursue and even if a hacker is a mensa spanking genius (6 or 7 intel) they've only managed to give themselves a basic chance at succeeding on any sort of hack on the fly for a basic user account.

Not really. With only a small handful of exceptions (Shock gloves and monofilament wire) a melee fighter is going to need a good strength in order to do damage in melee.

I'll also take this time to point out that I never said I liked Skill + Program capped by logic. I said I liked Logic + Skill (Same as the rest of the entire game) capped by program, or offered up the suggestion of doing Logic + Skill + Program and playing with the target numbers a bit.

Every time you put something like this in I just have to shake my head. First off Real Life hacking, has nothing whatsoever to do with shadowrun hacking, just put it out of your mind, it will hurt less the more you dig into IT and hacking. Having said that high intelligence isn't terribly important in RW hacking if your scripting or using other peoples tools. Coding your own tools and zero day exploits does take quite a bit of skill and presumably brain power but in the setup that SR uses software and skill really do replace raw brain power. I know a lot of people who arn't the sharpest knives in the drawer but are really good at their chosen field. Are you smug about Hacking or IT that you think it is any differnet? Because i know more then a few decent to good programmers and Sys Admin's who really arn't going to win any intel contests.

I understand that RL hacking and SR hacking are worlds apart. I also understand that SR hacking relies on being smart. All previous editions have showed this through the hacking pool being linked rather directly to whatever the logic stat was back then. They also made hacking a logic based skill. They have also themselves put out the fix of using Logic + Skill capped by program (I'm not just making this up myself). My entire problem with the way the core book handles hacking is that they admit that it is a skill based on logic, and is thus a skill that smart people should be good at, yet the rules as implemented place zero importance on Logic in regards to being a hacker.

As for the people you know, it's called being good at what you do. Not being Einstein doesn't preclude the ability to be good at something. In the context of SR, it is entirely possible that they have a logic of 2 or 3 or whatever, and a skill of 4 or 5. That would be quite equivalent to a smarter person who is less skilled, for instance a logic of 4 or 5 with a skill of 2 or 3. Thus it can be really hard to tell a talented novice from a hard worker. However, you're 'not the smartest knives in the drawer' friends aren't the sort of comparison I want to make. I've never said that normal people can't do great things if they're good at it. What I'm talking about is the system comparing someone who is mentally retarded to someone who would make Einstein look like a joke in regards to a logic based skill, and finding them perfectly equal.

A stat of their choosing, at most gaming groups i've sat Cha based casters outnumber logic ones almost 2 to 1 because of the utility of Charisma over Logic. Hackers are stuck with logic, and as stated above you'd require maxed int to even begin to have a chance on most decently secured systems.

No, I'm not requiring a maxed Logic for a hacker any more than I'm requiring a max Agility for a sammy. Let me ask you something though, for your 2:1 comparison, how many of those charisma based mages were elves? I'd bet alot. The reason people like the charisma based traditions isn't because charisma has more utility, it doesn't, it is used in five, maybe six, skills, while logic is used in over a dozen. The reason that people like the charisma based traditions is because they can get an easy +2 to charisma by virtue of being an elf without having to give up any essence like they would have to to raise their logic that much. What I'm actually trying to do by making logic relative to hacking is increase the appeal of Logic as a stat. Everyone wants a high agility because it is used in more skills than any other stat, and in the most commonly used skills: shooting someone or hitting them. So instead of sticking behind keeping logic down so that you have an easy dump stat, maybe you should try thinking of how the stats can be more balanced so the first thing someone does when making a character isn't to soft max their agility.

Actually i've seen more then a few sammy types with pretty run of the mil stats and make up for it with ware so your point isn't quite accurate and as I pointed out above sammies do have quite a bit of choice in how they go about their business. Under your system hackers are essentially locked in to the huge waste of points that is logic.

Okay, great, you're point is what exactly? Sammies can get ware to boost poor stats? Amazingly, so can hackers. If they have naturally high logic, perhaps they can get the exact same ware as you're average stat sammies to raise their physical stats. Or perhaps they can focus on their hacker role and get hacking related ware. Or perhaps they can be physical types and grab some ware to make them better hackers. Even more so, you talk about how average physical stats can still make a good combat character. A hacker that has to put some points into logic then, can have average physical stats and still do well by virtue of grabbing some ware.

No your picking the stat associated with the skill and your applying it in a ridiculous manner that's inconsistent with the rest of the system based on some vaguely held offense that there could be a dumb hacker somewhere.

Really? Stat + Skill is inconsistent with the rest of the system? Funny, because from reading through the books, this is exactly how the rest of the system handles every single skill. And no, it isn't a vaguely held offense. You yourself have basically said that if ever making a hacker you wouldn't bother wasting points on Logic because the stat is so useless. I'm trying to make logic a useful stat. I'm trying to bring hacking more in line with how the entire rest of the game works. I'm trying to make a skill based on a particular stat actually require that stat in order to work as intended.

The converse of that, delete every semblence of every IDE and disconnect your computer from any kind of online reference especially google. Now write anything with any level of complexity and tell me that software doesn't make a difference

I do that all the time actually. I write programs on paper at lunch and then go back and code them. I also write code in notepad and similar even more difficult to work with text programs very often. I'll admit I do make the occasional mistake. I'll forget to capitalize String sometimes or leave out a semi-colon when working with paper, but the code is basically correct. This does however support my idea of making the program either an additional bonus to the roll (Once again, like every other skill where it gets a bonus from the technology helping it), or having hits limited by program rating so that program rating remains relevant.

Do you really see this happening so much that your fix is to essentially break hacking for anyone that doesn't have maxed intel, for pretty much making Hacking impossible for Ork's and Trolls?

Like I've said, my fix is an optional rule printed in the books. It also doesn't break hacking. You need a halfway decent logic in order to remain competitive, just like a sammy needs a halfway decent agility to remain competitive. Sure, hacking might be a little hard for orks or trolls because they have a lower maxed logic, but that doesn't mean it is impossible. They might be a die or two short compared to a human hacker with the same gear, but that's how it goes. The troll hacker will also be able to beat the crud out of the human hacker in the meat world. So yeah, no, I really don't have a problem with a troll having a slight disadvantage hacking when he has a massive advantage in the meat world.

[Karoline]

Anyway, I liked the idea of using stat + skill + tool (program) for the matrix rolls, I'll check with Garou to see if he is willing to give it a try in our games and see how it goes, of course the thresholds should be increased, but by what number? 2 maybe? Also, how agents would be ruled, their stat would be equal to their rating, just like skill giving a total of rating x2 + tool (program)?

I'd suggest a raising of 1. This means that an average user/program is unaffected because 3 dice, the advantage from a rating 3 program, is an average of 1 hit. So basically if you have a poor logic/skill/program you'll be at a slight disadvantage, if you have average then nothing will be affected by the change, and if you're a genius 1337 hacker with cutting edge programs you have a light advantage.

Yeah, I think you've got it for agents and IC. Their rating would be both skill and stat. You could maybe go the route that pilot programs go and have a program that replicates the skill, basically the hacker equivalent of an autosoft. This might be a bit more complex, but give a better end result since the best an agent could get would be Agent 6 + autosoft 4 + Program 6 = 14 dice. This means a top end agent running the best software is going to be right along the lines of an unmodded hacker running high end software. Say Logic 4 + Skill 4 + Program 6 + VR 2 = 14. Leaves room for the human to edge out the machines by virtue of raising logic or skill or getting other bonuses, thus making the concept of having a dedicated spider much better, because only a human (Or metahuman of course) would be able to beat another human (or meta).

Up to you. I suggest just going with Agent x 2 + program to start out with if only because it is simpler and not such a large change.

[Saint Sithney]

How to pick a lock.
Skill + Stat + Tool(autopicker [up to rating 6]).

How to shoot a gun.
Skill + Stat + Tool(smartgun [+2] +tacsoft [up to rating 4 for 6 total]).

How to hack a system.
Skill + Tool(Program [up to rating 6]).

OH WAIT.

[Tyro]

We (I include myself in this) forgot about another Logic-based skill - Sensor Gunnery.

[Karoline]

We (I include myself in this) forgot about another Logic-based skill - Sensor Gunnery.

That's a skill? What skill... oh, I think I know, maybe. Seems quite obscure though. Still, good find.

[Draco18s]

Read Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking, by Malcolm Gladwell.

I listened to it on CD. I recommend it for highly different reasons, but I still recommend it.

It's amazing the kinds of results we can get by "jumping to conclusions," its amazing. One of the examples in the book is a card game,* where there are 2 stacks of cards, one red, one blue. Unbeknownst to the player the blue deck is full of small wins and moderate losses, but the red deck is chock full of hefty penalties, but winning big means winning big. The goal is to make as much money as possible.

After 10 cards a player has already altered their behavior to prefer the blue cards.
After 30 cards they're aware of their behavior.
After 80 cards they can state their reasoning.

10 cards is remarkably little information, yet, the quick thinking portion of the brain--the part responsible for first impressions and Fight or Flight--has already jumped to a conclusion and is usually right.

*That reminds me, I need to whip this up as a flash game.

[Tyro]

That's a skill? What skill... oh, I think I know, maybe. Seems quite obscure though. Still, good find.

It's simple enough, though easy to overlook - the Gunnery skill is linked to Agility when done physically (i.e. physically taking hold of a mounted gun), but it's linked to Logic when you control a gun remotely. It's one of the reasons riggers love Logic.

[Sengir]

In other words, hacking happens at speeds too fast for logical thinking

Pretty much evrything you do happens at speeds too fast for a human to keep up. Surely one could decrypt a message with a known key using nothing but pen and paper, but even a single sentence will take forever. A sequence of malformed data packets can also be created with nothing but a hex editor, but why would anyone do that?

Logic is required for designing a program, ie. to come up with a concept of what the program does (in case of a hacking program, the actual exploit to use) and how the parts interact with each other.

[Aerospider]

I listened to it on CD. I recommend it for highly different reasons, but I still recommend it.

It's amazing the kinds of results we can get by "jumping to conclusions," its amazing. One of the examples in the book is a card game,* where there are 2 stacks of cards, one red, one blue. Unbeknownst to the player the blue deck is full of small wins and moderate losses, but the red deck is chock full of hefty penalties, but winning big means winning big. The goal is to make as much money as possible.

After 10 cards a player has already altered their behavior to prefer the blue cards.
After 30 cards they're aware of their behavior.
After 80 cards they can state their reasoning.

10 cards is remarkably little information, yet, the quick thinking portion of the brain--the part responsible for first impressions and Fight or Flight--has already jumped to a conclusion and is usually right.

*That reminds me, I need to whip this up as a flash game.

That's quite interesting. I can remember seeing a documentary on gambling which reported an experiment on rats that suggested sentient creatures are, as a rule, risk-seeking rather than risk averse.

They rigged up a water bottle with two levers - if a rat pushed the left one ten times the bottle released some water, but to get the same prize with the right lever it took a random number of pushes on the lever averaging out at significantly more than ten. Over time the rats all gravitated to the risky lever and it was concluded that they did this purely from the experiences of quick gratification that sometimes occured even though they were expending more effort overall.

[Ascalaphus]

Magician needs 1 hit to get a spell off regardless of force. Hacker needs anywhere from 1-7 to get onto a base system as a user and the numbers could be as high as 9 or 12 if they want any decent level access. Magicians hits on rolls are uncapped, it's comparing apples to oranges in a very real sense.

Incorrect; many spells require a threshold > 1to be halfway effective. Especially when they might be resisted by an opponent or need to beat object resistance.
Also, magician's hits are capped by Force. And although drain resistance is doable, higher Force also makes detecting the casting easier, and the signature takes longer to erase.

Pretty much everything you do happens at speeds too fast for a human to keep up.

Such as dodging multiple bullets in three seconds, while also taking several aimed shots, within mere seconds.

[Ascalaphus]

I personally rather like FrankTrollman's idea about the in-game reasons for Logic by the way. The argument runs something like this:

* Computers are powerful, but are somewhat limited; they're bad at dealing with ambiguity
* Human brains are very good at ambiguity, but less powerful in handling massive quantities of data

A collaboration of brain and machine is much more powerful than either one of them separately. Which leads to the following results:
* Logic and Intuition play a role in hacking
* Agents are nowhere near as powerful as man-machines.

Both of which are generally desirable results, in my opinion.

[Aerospider]

WRT logic cap vs program rating cap, the crux of the matter is capability vs reliability. Here are the pertinent scenarios to illustrate the implications on the narrative. Note that only one stat is changed in each comparison to maintain experimental integrity and skill rating is omitted as it is irrelevant in the comparison.

SET-UP A: Program cap, Logic DP

Hacker 1: L6, P6 - Genius with a top program
Hacker 2: L6, P1 - Genius with a naff program
They are equally reliable but Hacker 1 is much more capable. For a simple task either will do, but anything more complicated needs the better software.

Hacker 3: L6, P6 - Genius with a top program
Hacker 4: L1, P6 - Idiot with a top program
They are equally capable but Hacker 3 is much more reliable. Either of them can do whatever you want, but the smarter guy will succeed more often.

SET-UP B: Program DP, Logic cap

Hacker 5: L6, P6 - Genius with a top program
Hacker 6: L6, P1 - Genius with a naff program
They are equally capable but Hacker 5 is much more reliable. Either of them can do whatever you want, but the better software will succeed more often.

Hacker 7: L6, P6 - Genius with a top program
Hacker 8: L1, P6 - Idiot with a top program
They are equally reliable but Hacker 7 is much more capable. For a simple task either will do, but anything more complicated needs the smarter guy.

There's no wrong answer, so from this one must decide which way round better fits one's view of 2070s computer use. If Logic is the rolling stat then idiots can do great things, they just usually won't. If program rating is the rolling stat then idiots can use the Matrix with the same ability as Mensa members, they just aren't smart enough to consider all the angles and achieve great effect.

Despite that set-up A is more in line with the rest of the mechanics as well as strong thematic arguments and (IMHO) Karoline's superior debating skills, I would still go with set-up B myself (if either) particularly because of the uber-user-friendliness aspect of SR programs that is ubiquitously evident in both fluff and crunch.

For those still taking arms against the notion of Logic being unimportant to hackers, note that using it as the cap makes it even more important than the other way around. Hacker 8 might perform as strongly as Stephen Hawkins with a cerebral booster thanks to his SOTA gear, but as he can't work out how to put it to any marketable effect he's no great addition to the team.

[Aerospider]

Also, magician's hits are capped by Force.

WRT the Magic/force analogy, don't forget that force itself is limited by Magic so the attribute is taking care of both the rolling and the capping. The same is not true of hacking RAW.

[Karoline]

WRT the Magic/force analogy, don't forget that force itself is limited by Magic so the attribute is taking care of both the rolling and the capping. The same is not true of hacking RAW.

True, but the force of spell you can cast safely without frying yourself from the drain is based on two stats. So mages need Willpower, Magic, and Drain Stat, while hackers need Logic and Programs. Doesn't seem like an unreasonable requirement to me. As I said before, all archetypes have some kind of stat requirements. Sammies need agility reaction and body, riggers need reaction and likely logic, technos need all mental stats, faces need Charisma. RAW wise hackers are very unique in their lack of any sort of stat 'requirement' to be good at what they do.

[makari]

why do riggers need reaction?

when jumped in they use the vehicle attributes, response for agility and reaction

[KCKitsune]

why do riggers need reaction?

when jumped in they use the vehicle attributes, response for agility and reaction

because they are not always jumped into a vehicle?

[McCummhail]

Two point to bring to the discussion:
* SR4 design seems to encourage everyone to have an active interest in matrix activity and be capable of handling the base level of modern computing. Linking Hacking more closely to Logic makes being capable in the matrix an exclusive sector again (No standard race gets a bonus to logic and some instead have penalties).
This may be what you are after, but it is worth being aware of.

* How is it that intuition, the things that sets humans apart from powerful calculators, does not factor into the rules for hacking in any capacity?
Computers are much more capable than humans in making calculations and binary decisions. However, even the advanced fuzzy logic (according to in game text) does not compare to metahuman intuition.
Is there no place for a perceptive, intuitive hacker (as opposed to a reclusive savant)?