I've seen many people posting on this forum about it being a must have for matrix chars...

but 1.5 ess cost and 75000 for a simple +2 skill pool, compared to most every other skill enhancer, it seems like the absolute least bang for your buck...



am I missing something? is my book a typo and it's suppose to be .15 instead of 1.5 ess? I've thought this a couple times, but I'm not sure...

help me out.

Well, the 1.5 Essence cost version applies the +2 modifier to basically all Matrix tests and all Logic-linked tests outside the Matrix, and one more +1 to the Cracking and Electronics Groups when using AR or VR. So for a whole lot of useful Skills you get either +2 or +3 to your dice pool.

That's a lot.

I'm not sure your recollection/math is right on the +3 portion, but i'm AFB myself right now.

It is +3, if you get the R2.

But doesn't rating 1 only give one die? I may have been shorting myself a die.

Yes, but I was talking about the Rating 2 version that costs 1.5 essence, as the OP was using that in his example.

Fixed the emphasis for you.

Fixed your emphasis fixing, and your second quote.

Edit: Actually fixed your emphasis fixing.

Ah... I missed the "same bonus" part, and just read into the text my own imagination that Rating 2 gave +2 as well as the +1. OK, so a whole bunch of useful skills get +2 and some more get +1. If you are going the hacker/rigger route, this still seems valuable to me.

But not as valuable as some other things could be... Especially at its price in Nuyen and Essence Cost...

Keep the Faith

So am I blind, i'm just not seeing the +3 dice. +2 sure, but 1 plus 1 is 2.

It is indeed +2 (for some of the Skills... Hacking and Electronics)

Keep the Faith

Ok now that I'm sure i havn't gone math incompetent or senile I will point out that runing the standard hacking rules every +2 bonus helps, especially when your in a pinch. It's not as good as other cyber or bio, especially for the price and nuyen involved but it is one of the few ways to boost these tests.

Encephalon is just the old classic hacker upgrade. Or, old and busted really. Bioware, nanoware and genetic treatments all outperform the clunky old head-puter.

How you figure, what bioware actually gives bonuses to hacking? I'll admit from an essence and cost standpoint encephlon is expensive trash but it's the only game in town.

I would just go with the Simsense Booster. I know it doesn't give you extra dice, but an extra IP is ALWAYS nice.

Well, if you're going with the optional rule that nearly everyone goes with, cerebral boosters increase logic which increases your hacking pool. (And if you don't know, I mean the optional rule to use Logic + Skill with hits maxed by program rating instead of the fairly stupid Skill + Program in which Logic is a dump stat for hackers)

Neocortical Nanites are huge at a +3 bonus for 25k (15 for the nanites, 10k for the hive) and 2 capacity.

Still, I have to agree. 75k and 1.5 essence sucks alot, but there aren't a ton of options out there.

Cerebral Booster? +3 to Logic and therefore all logic linked skills. Far less essence and far less cost. PuSHeD costs less (not by much,) but is null essence for another +1. Neocortical Neural Amplifiers will give you another +3 dice to all logic linked skills for 15,000¥ and the cost of your nanohive. Sure it won't help with the high-security hacks, but for your everyday sniff and spoof drone capture hijinks it's three dice for peanuts.

That's actually .1 essence.

+3 Logic != +3 Logic Linked Skills, especially when the logic skill in question is Hacking.

Hacking + [Program Rating] doesn't include "dice from Logic"

Was going to mention that. Check my post up just a bit. While it is true that the base rules are Skill + Program, nearly everyone seems to go with the Stat + Skill with hits maxed by program to at least bring it vaguely in line with how the rest of the entire game operates and to make Logic worthwhile for hackers.

Heh, forgot that RAW is skiddie rules where the program does all the work.

My current character--a chaos mage (yay logic!) is a hacker.

A hardware hacker.

I get Logic to all my hack attempts (because I'm not in AR/VR using programs, I'm directly interfacing with a control panel, see SR4 p223).

And I still ended up needing to spend 2 Edge (of 4) avoiding an alert using a maglock passkey--I had to scan it 5 times? Either 5 or 6. Once I got no hits, once I didn't get enough (hey, a R3 passkey isn't that good).

I for one prefer the reverse: skill + program limited by logic.

Logic has many other uses but program ratings do not. When capping by rating many users aren't going to see any benefit in using a rating 6 program over a rating 4 program and I think that detracts a lot from the importance of good gear as well as not representing how massive the difference should be. On top of that, programs rated 1 or 2 are next to useless for anything beyond finding a good restaurant. Essentially my problem is that if the program rating is the cap it will matter almost never, but using Logic as the cap still leaves a lot of reasons to have a high Logic rating.

Also, it's very thematic that decades into the future the symbiotic relationship between society's dependence on technology and technology's increasing capabaility has spiralled to the heights of highly autonomous programs designed to minimise human error/incompetence. I really would expect the Logic requirement on software use to drop massively in times to come – I think we've been seeing such a progression over the last few decades in RL.

In the end both the rating used for the DP and the rating used for the hits cap are 'limits', but IMO it works much better if it is the program rating that determines how effective program use can be whilst the Logic rating determines how much of the programs effectiveness can be harnessed by the user in question.

EDIT: Also, with program rating being the cap threading becomes next to pointless most of the time. Who's going to thread a few extra rating points on a CF (incurring fading damage and a -2 sustaining modifier) for hits they probably won't get and might not even need? TMs would be much, much less exciting.

The (dubious) advantage of the Encephalon is that it's one of the few augmentations that explicitly states it adds to tests in the matrix. Many other augmentations talk about bonuses to "logic-linked tests", but are vague about whether they'd apply when you're rolling a Skill+Program (even if the skill is Logic-linked, you're not using Logic on the test, so...)

At least with the Encephalon you know where you stand. Of course, you could also ask the GM about the other options, which are all better, IF they can contribute.

ok so it's not a typo and I'm not missing any kind of errata... it really is 1.5 ess and 75k for the +2 to skills

thanks for clarifying, i just can't justify giving up that kind of money and essense for such a small bonus

See, I still think there is alot of point in getting a high rating program when capping by program, because getting the 18ish dice to regularly see 6+ hits isn't all that hard, and it doesn't take long before you find yourself really wanting an extra point or two of program rating so that you can max out your hacking power.

Also, I think it draws a better parallel to real life. A smart person running weak software is going to do better than a dumb person running top of the line software. This is because the smart person knows how to use all the little ins and outs of a program, while the dumb person is only going to use the most basic functions of a complex program. I mean, I can do in notepad what others do in Microsoft Word most of the time, because 95% of Word's functions aren't used 99% of the time. What I write isn't any worse for using notepad instead of word, but if I want to start throwing in charts and tables (representing more hits) then I need to switch to a better program.

I do agree with you that the intellect requirements on software is being lowered, but that doesn't mean that those lowered standards are making use of the more advanced and complex functions. Anyone can open photoshop and mess around with a picture, but it takes someone who really knows the program to do useful and convincing things with the photos. Once again, this is a case where most users aren't accessing 99% of the features.

I also agree about the technos, for them I think you could leave it as Skill + CF maxed by logic since a complex form is so vastly different from an actual program, and also of course to make threading worthwhile.

My observation is pretty much the exact opposite of Karolines. A dumb but well trained user on better software will consistently put out a better product then a smart person with poor tools. More tools always trumps less even if many seldom get used if they are at least aware of them they can make use of them. Logic != Training

Additionally I've always felt that limiting hits to logic essentially screws hackers, especially when hacking on the fly when they have a very limited period of time to make things happen, especially if their going for something better then standard user level access. It seems like a lot of "Get in ye cloth armor mage!" Which no one else is confined to in this system, why should hackers be limited if gun bunnies aren't limited to max hits equal to their agility or relevant weapon skill. The net result is hacking, already a skill point intensive niche to play is now also an attribute point intensive niche to play, nice job breaking it GM.

Well, yeah, but remember how good you are at something is a combination of your skill and your stat. If you have someone who is very good using poor tools (High stat and skill) they'll max out the tools. If you have someone that isn't so great at what they do (Average stat and skill) then they won't be able to take full advantage of the advanced tools.

Of course, I also agree that someone with average stat and skill is also going to do better with Microsoft word than they would with notepad, better with photoshop than they would with paint.

Why not just make it a three stat system? Rolls are Stat + Skill + Program. You might have to play with the system a bit, adding a hit or so to the requirements for everything, but alot of the things are opposed tests, so there wouldn't be much net affect except that it would bring everything into play. I mean, programs aren't so different from a medkit or good tools or any of the things that other skills use for advantages.

I've always wondered about this.

I like the idea. Add two extra hits for everything sounds like a good (starting) rule?

Real life hacking means that you fire up a program and wait while the program creates malformed packets, tries endless password variations, or scans for known exploits. If your password cracker is old and slow a brute force attack will take longer, no matter how smart you are. And Metasploit has not been updated for ages, the target system could be patched against all exploits in the database and you couldn't do a thing about it.



Knowledge how to use something is not smart but merely training, which represented by the respective skill. Just imagine Einstein using a PC for the first time

If you go by the vision of hacking as presented in Neuromancer (arguably THE original inspiration for it), hacking doesn't actually take a lot of long, deep thinking - it's a lightning-fast mental exercise where quick reactions are key. In other words, hacking happens at speeds too fast for logical thinking - the heavy thinking needs to be pre-encoded in the software so you don't have to spend precious milliseconds making a decision. Higher Skill lets you manipulate the software better through trained responses.

Reduce programming time, and/or increase program costs, and Logic becomes very valuable for Hackers - but for *writing* the software in the first place, not for using it.

Perhaps use teamwork rules to work in Logic as a source for DP bonus? Roll Logic then add hits to the DP for the test.

I personally do it the other way around, because I like to play up the VR aspects of the matrix. Your programs are nothing but a tool kit, and using the right tool at the right time makes all the difference. Agents and other digitals use the tools uniformly and therefore get straight up DP bonus = to program level, but people use their cunning to overcome things, the tools coming into play as needs dictate. It's just, I like to think of hacking as a person trying to move sideways through a linear system. The hacker uses quick dirty tricks to jump past and around all the formulated responses in the computer system. You don't beat the samurai IC because your sword is longer or sharper, but because you cheated and moved your positioning at the last moment so that he swung at air and fell on your sword. Let's face it, no body can beat the ultimate chess computer, but if you can change the rules, you get to flick his pieces over one by one.

So, for me, it's Logic + Skill + Teamwork(Program) + Bonuses.

This reminds me of a thread I've wanted to start for a minute now..

I don't think we are going about the comparisons in the right way. Take two situations made up of LOG and Skill and Program Rating, and compare with only one aspect different. So:

Hacker A) LOG same + Skill same + Program rating high vs.
Hacker B) LOG same + Skill same + Program rating low

Who would do better? I think there is no argument Hacker A would.

Hacker A) LOG same + Skill high + Program rating same vs.
Hacker B) LOG same + Skill low + Program rating same

Who would do better? Again, I think no argument, A. Now,

Hacker A) LOG high + Skill same + Program rating same vs.
Hacker B) LOG low + Skill same + Program rating same

Who would do better? Here there might be argument. But look at the definition of Logic in SR4A:
By this definition, higher LOG means better memory of things the program can do, better ability to select a series of functions to achieve a task, and better ability to apply program functions to new problems never before encountered. It's this last one that sticks out for me, and suggests to me that in the VR world of the Matrix, a high LOG plays an important role. So which way represents that role better, LOG + Skill with hits limited by Rating, or Skill + Rating limited by LOG?

I go with LOG + Skill with hits capped by Program rating, for the following reasons.

It seems an artificial comparison to say the good hacker with the cheap program can outdo the poor hacker with the 'gold standard', as the good hacker will get his hands on the best he can, as soon as he can. I don't think there would be all that much competition between good programs and poor ones, everyone would be doing business with the best tools. So Program Rating will produce little differentiation, either in deciding number of hits or capping the number of hits. How many of us build a PC and buy less than the maximum rating the game allows?

The reversed structure of the task resolution system irks me. Everything else in the game uses Attribute + Skill. I have enough work to do as a GM without having to remember to switch systems in the Matrix. (Does this mean I have low LOG? Don't answer that!)

I believe in valorizing person over machine. I want the hacker's intellect to count more than a program. Even in the milieu of cyberpunk.

Read Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking, by Malcolm Gladwell.

Well, the computer will beat the one player it is primed to play against. Put it into a tournament without reprogramming every match for the current opponent, and it fails miserably.

You know, I had to go back to the Skill + Program for hacking (rather than logic+skill, limit program rating). Throwing the stat in just unraveled acouple of things. I'll talk about CFs for a bit. IIRC they add to the porgram rating not the roll. This led to the Techno being invisible on a hack as his Stealth + threading was alsways higher than the agent's or spiders anaylyze program (yeas I could give the spider an uber analyze but 6 should be a max barring a high security node).

I do recall the reasong in SR4A that the dev intent was to show that the Logic of a PC would not matter as the speed of the matrix makes you rely on the programs.


PS: As a GM though I would never approve of a LOG 1 hacker.

I see a black cat.
I see a black cat.

Double post. Agent smith must be present...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blink_%28book%29:
"The book argues that intuitive judgment is developed by experience, training, and knowledge."

High Hacking Skill, not high Logic.

Wikipedia summaries sometimes don't catch the full meaning of a book. The point I was trying to draw from his book is that decisions (and therefore actions) are predicated upon rapid decisions often made without conscious thought. I extrapolate that the faster the processor (=higher LOG) the faster the decision the faster the action.

Of course, I could argue myself right out of the point by noticing that he also says rapid decision/action does not necessarily form the correct action.

I didn't see anyone adress it so I will respectfully restate it, capping hits with logic effectively bones all Hackers or forces them to dump points into a stat that has very little other benefit for them, especially compared to stats like agaility, body etc.

And yet without it, logic, intelligence, is by all rights pointless. The only skills based on logic are the electronics, cracking, and mechanic skill groups along with armorer. Given that about half of those skills are, by RAW, not affected by logic, the only character that would ever bother with logic is a mechanic.

Personally I have no problem with Hackers having to devote their BP to mental stats. I have no problems with hackers having to make decisions between being physically effective or effective in the matrix. I have no problem with hackers having to be smart and generally not very physically fit people. I do have a problem with the idea that a mentally retarded person makes just as good a hacker as a super genius. I do have problems with the troll who is barely smart enough to tie his shoes being perfectly on par with the human who does advanced calculus in his head. In fact the troll is by all rights better because the troll can take more feedback damage while in hot VR, and is going to be far better in the physical realm.

So yeah, short version is: I don't have any problems with a hacker needing to 'dump' his stats into logic and not being able to be as physically fit as a sammy.

Oh, and also, don't forget that all previous editions had mental stats factor into the hacking pool, and thus directly affected skill on the matrix. I don't see why the programs should have suddenly become so good that user intelligence is now meaningless.

You're forgetting First Aid, Medicine, Cybertechnology, Arcana, every Academic Knowledge skill... probably some others, but I'm too lazy to check.

Oh yeah, forgot the bioware group. I specifically left out academic knowledge skills because they are of exceedingly limited use. In general you'll get more use out of languages (Int) and street skills (Int) that give more practical knowledge. I mean, how often does you're runner need to pull of a Geology roll?

Arcana I also left out on purpose because that is more the realm of magic, and magic tends to require logic for mages.

I do agree that Logic has some uses, but it seems like cutting the matrix out of it really takes out Logic's knees.

That is hardly a hackers fault now is it.


Alright, but after all we should apply the same standard to mages, lets switch them all to Intelligence, or better yet stretngth because I personally don't believe the same mentally retarted troll should be a good chaos mage but he certainly can be. You have this pre-existing bias based on your view of how hacking should work and your view of how people should be penalized. Effective immediately your shiny new blood mage now has her hits at spell casting capped by (rolls a die) strength. Of course even that wouldn't be that great of a hinderance as all you need to get a spell off is one hit, where for even the most basic of hacks your going to need at least three.


Previous editions had a lot of silly things, shall we compile a list. Don't think intelligence isn't taken out of the equation by better sofware? Your a programming student right? or at least some familiarity? When was the last time you banged something out in cobol with all the goat sacrificing and high intelligence that entails. Today you and I both have better tools and now by and large don't have to deal with that annoyance.

You have this pre-existing bias based on your view of how hacking should work and your view of how people should be penalized or pigeonholed for the character types they want to play, never mind that those choices and setups arn't applied anywhere else in setting or system. Free your mind Karoline, this isn't the game that causes cancer there are no class rules, why are you trying to artificially insert them.

I do want to stress that the personal examples are meant as just that and not an attack in any form and are actually meant with quite a bit of levity and I hope they will be taken as such.

has anyone played with the idea of house ruling a lower cost of encephalon cause it's really bugging me that it is soo out of sync with the cost / benefit ratio of other cyberware

other things around 1.5 essense:

titanium bone lacing, awesome physicalness, and less expensive at only 40k

r3 dermal plating... 3 pts of armor is nice, and cheap at only 15k

an entire cybernetic torso, and again cheaper at only 20k

r3 synaptic booster, while much more expensive has awesome utility compared to a +2 skill bonus

r3 dermal sheath is only 40k

it just seems to me that the combination of both essense and cash costs being so high basically makes it obselete

No, it isn't. But it is hardly a sammy's fault that agility is important to hitting things. Does that mean we should remove agility from combat? Seems rather unfair that people need to be strong to hit someone else hard doesn't it? Maybe we should take strength out of the melee damage calculation. And what's with that whole 'body determines how much damage you can take and armor you can wear'? May as well get rid of that too.

You're right, I have a preexisting biased that being good at what is perhaps the single most logical thing on the planet, should require you have a high logic to be good at it.

I have no idea what you're talking about with mages. There are multiple traditions, each one of which requires a particular high stat (Log, Int, or Cha) required to be able to resist the drain well. So yeah, mages are already required to have a particular stat high. Sammies are required to have high physical stats. I don't see what sort of point you're trying to draw here at all. I especially don't see the point of picking a random stat to do a completely random thing. I'm not picking a random stat to do a random thing, I'm picking the stat that governs the skill to somehow have an effect on that skill, just like every other skill in the game does.


Yeah, I've done some programing, and know full well from personal experience that a high Logic stat is absurdly important in writing a program. It is also important in using a program. Yes, it is how well you know how to use programs, but that is based very much on how smart you are. Grab someone in the lower 5 percentile and someone in the upper 5 percentile that both know nothing about a computer, and start teaching them to use a computer. I am utterly confident that the person in the upper 5 percentile will be better faster at using the program. Seems that logic somehow affects you're ability to use a program. So yeah, intellect is not taken out of the equation by better software. If you're ability to use the software (Skill) matters at all, then how smart you are will also matter because how good you are at using the skill, is based on how high your stat is.


I've no bias on how people should be penalized or pigeonholed. I simply think that as hacking is a logic based skill, logic should play a roll in hacking. Kind of like how I think that since shooting a gun is an agility based skill, agility should play a roll in shooting a gun. Funnily enough, it does. What I want is that hacking follows the same rules, same system, as the rest of the game, in which stats actually play a role. Sure, maybe I'm biased towards the idea that smart, logical people are better at using computers, especially complex programs like hacking programs would be, but I don't think this is an unfair bias. I see it in action every single day after all.

I'm not trying to artificially insert them any more than they are already in the game. Sammies need high agility, body, and reaction. Mages need high willpower and the other stat for their casting. Technomancers need all their mental stats high. Riggers need high reaction.

I don't have a problem with a hacker having high physical stats, but I do have a problem with a hacker being mentally retarded in order to do so and yet not suffering in their ability to use a logic linked skill.

Hear, hear.