Possession Tradition Tactical Manual, for GMs as well as players Options

[pbangarth]

I don't subscribe to the view that possession spirits rock over materialization spirits, for a number of reasons already mentioned above. So I won't reiterate. But an earlier discussion about background count (BC) got me to thinking.

BC reduces the Magic Attribute of a magician and the Force of a spirit on a 1:1 basis. BG of 2 means both drop by 2. But, the maximum Force of spirit controllable by a magician is equal to twice the Magic Attribute. Therefore, the upper limit is reduced at a 2:1 rate. So, theoretically, a decent BG could create a state in which a magician is 'in control' of a spirit beyond her normal ability to summon.

What effect would this have if such a spirit were A) in the presence of a Materialization Tradition magician, and B) possessing a Possession Tradition magician? Would the spirit still be controlled? Maybe some kind of 'spiritual grandfather clause' would be in effect.

If not, would the spirit just go away? Probably, for both Traditions. But if it chose, for its own reasons, to stay, it is likely that the Possession Tradition magician would get the worse treatment. "I like it here. I like the feeling of toughness and strength. I think I will stay for a while. And, no, your Channeling means nothing to me now. I am in charge."

How does that sound?

[sn0mm1s]

Unless you are attempting to get utility out of them by say, getting them to do stuff on the physical when there isn't a motile object around to possess. They're good but have enough draw backs as to keep them from being "superior in every way to materialized spirits"

But do you need a high force spirit for this? If all you need is the mobility of a materialized spirit why use a force 6?

[Patrick the Gnom...]

EDIT:

Oh, whatever. Fuck it. This is all rehashed and if you honestly know what there is to know about possession spirits and still decide to put them, unaltered, into your game then I say have fun, or at least try. In terms of tactics for possession spirits, get a golem for when he's usable, get armor you can possess your spirits with for when he's not (the armor has the advantage of being mobile, enhanced by the possession, and a good default object to possess when you just want to summon a spirit for utility powers), and otherwise enjoy being the toughest thing in your game.

[Mordinvan]

But do you need a high force spirit for this? If all you need is the mobility of a materialized spirit why use a force 6?

Never said you did. I'm just saying this is a falling down point for the possession tradition.

[knasser]

As much as I hate to say it, after looking over the FAQ I must admit that your interpretation does seem to be correct. I am forced to admit that by RAW possession traditions are broken and unplayable in the interests of game balance.

Ah, game balance is a different issue all together. And thank you btw.

A possession spirit is always superior to a materialization spirit and a summoner mage can easily get all of his physical attributes up to 10 or higher no matter what his race is, and a min/maxed troll mage can get a strength above 20 with little trouble. Possessed beings are nigh unkillable monsters that can tear cars in half and wear them as gloves.

I think possession, as magic often does, gets a double standard applied to it. For the price of a couple of bound Force 5's, you can get a GE Vindicator minigun that will do a base 20P damage per action phase at -1AP. Put some APDS in there and it's -5. And a moderately decent samurai can hit with it. And that's before we get on to riggers sticking it on a drone to eliminate recoil altogether. Does it have disadvantages? Sure. But so does possession. I think the general rule in Shadowrun is that almost everything is "overpowered" until you misjudge the circumstances and get drekked. It's like a giant game of Rock, Paper, Scissors.

K.

[sn0mm1s]

Ah, game balance is a different issue all together. And thank you btw.



I think possession, as magic often does, gets a double standard applied to it. For the price of a couple of bound Force 5's, you can get a GE Vindicator minigun that will do a base 20P damage per action phase at -1AP. Put some APDS in there and it's -5. And a moderately decent samurai can hit with it. And that's before we get on to riggers sticking it on a drone to eliminate recoil altogether. Does it have disadvantages? Sure. But so does possession. I think the general rule in Shadowrun is that almost everything is "overpowered" until you misjudge the circumstances and get drekked. It's like a giant game of Rock, Paper, Scissors.

K.

How do you figure that a Street Sam could hit with it? Recoil penalties are doubled with machine guns - so if you are looking to hit with a narrow burst for that 20P aren't you looking at -28 recoil? Even if it was only a -14 modifier a mage built around possession would probably still have a reaction around 10-11 which means that the Street Sam would need a pool of 24-25 dice for it to be a 50/50 chance of hitting the mage. On top of that, even if you hit with a 20P attack a mage built around possession would probably be a troll, with a high body, and a Force 6 spirit.
Body 9 (15 with possession), plus let's say 15 more mundane armor, plus 12 hardened armor, plus 1 natural armor, plus the armor spell for let's say 4 more armor. That is 47 dice to soak - even with AP modifiers the troll is going to soak 14 of that on average *if* you get hit - which is very unlikely.

If there was a drone with a minigun couldn't the spirit go possess the drone instead?

[rumanchu]

How do you figure that a Street Sam could hit with it? Recoil penalties are doubled with machine guns -

More precisely, all uncompensated recoil penalties are doubled (SR4A, p.152). Alternatively, mounting that minigun on a decent-sized vehicle (anything with a combination of Body and RC totalling 14 or more) eliminates the recoil altogether.

If there was a drone with a minigun couldn't the spirit go possess the drone instead?

You certainly *could*, but it's (probably) much harder, since the test changes from an opposed test (with, most likely, +6 to the spirit's pool) to a Force x 2 (Object Resistance) test -- according to the table in SR4A, that means your threshold for the test is 6+ to possess a drone.

EDIT: too slow on my edit -- svenftw beat me to it

[svenftw]

If there was a drone with a minigun couldn't the spirit go possess the drone instead?

It's an option but the roll would be the spirit's Force x 2 against the object resistance of the drone, which would be 6. It would be hard pressed to get in there without spending Edge, and even then you'd have to roll decently.

[svenftw]

How do you figure that a Street Sam could hit with it? Recoil penalties are doubled with machine guns - so if you are looking to hit with a narrow burst for that 20P aren't you looking at -28 recoil?

Yeah, what rumanchu said. After you stack all of your recoil compensation (and with a minigun it's a sure bet he'd be using a gyro mount) you can get the penalties down to -4 or -6 or so.

[sn0mm1s]

Yeah, what rumanchu said. After you stack all of your recoil compensation (and with a minigun it's a sure bet he'd be using a gyro mount) you can get the penalties down to -4 or -6 or so.

If that was the case you just possess the Street Sam then - which is pretty much a guarantee. The only sort of issue then is the drone which is easily remedied (if you can't possess it) by something like accident. A Force 6 spirit will get Magic + Willpower (12 dice) to cause an accident vs the drones Reaction + Intuition - spirit's Magic. This is only if you also ignore the suggested rule of only letting a drone's body apply for recoil compensation and not negate it entirely (otherwise a dog sized drone could mount a machine gun with no recoil).

[rumanchu]

The only sort of issue then is the drone which is easily remedied (if you can't possess it) by something like accident.

Remember, if you're playing a Possession tradition mage, your spirits *must* Possess something in order to use powers that affect the real world (unless the target happens to be dual natured) -- Possession *replaces* Materialization (Street Magic, p.34).

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Not to mention that a character, especially a troll, built around possession would be summoning force 8 or 10 spirits, not 6. Magic 5 + Skill 5 + Specialization Guardian Spirits + Sun Mentor + Force 4 summoning Focus = 18 dice for summoning spirits. Summoning a force 8 spirit would net you 3 services on average. Then you give your guardian spirit the automatics skill as a power and suddenly that street sam became a whole lot more powerful and under your control. 16 dice possesses any human and while a drone might be harder to outright possess, a drone also tends to have lower dice pools and limited ammunition, while a force 8 spirit possessing a troll has probably 19 dice to dodge on full defense, and even if hit can soak 20 damage with 16 hardened armor, plus military grade armor, plus whatever other twinkiness you want to add to the defense.

Plus, why not take that street sam and make him a possession mage? Possession with a guardian spirit gives you whatever combat skill you need, why not just buy the gun and use it yourself? Now it's the possession mage with a 20P AP-1 weapon, dice pools of 20 or so with no recoil because his body is 23, 16 ITNW + whatever armor it feels like wearing on top of that in addition to 13 straight reaction dice. You can take any combat character build and make it better by adding a possession spirit, that's what is so broken about it.

This isn't a game of rock paper scissors, it's rock paper scissors nuke.

and @romachu: needing a possession target is not a weakness. Any possession mage should have a possession target on them at all times, such as an amulet or a ring, and if they don't there's always the option of possessing themselves.

[sn0mm1s]

Remember, if you're playing a Possession tradition mage, your spirits *must* Possess something in order to use powers that affect the real world (unless the target happens to be dual natured) -- Possession *replaces* Materialization (Street Magic, p.34).

Sure, the spirit is in possession of the mage and can use Accident as a power. If it is in the act of combat I am pretty sure this doesn't even cost a service since the spirit is fighting in the most efficient manner vs. whatever foe is in front of it.

[Whipstitch]

Patrick, your big trump card here is that a Force 8 Guardian Spirit in a buff troll is dangerous. You know what else is dangerous? A buff troll fighting alongside a Force 8 Guardian Spirit. They'll also have twice the passes assuming the troll has a form of initiative enhancement. They might not be each be immune to most attacks, granted, but they'll have comparable if not better offensive ability and can be two places at once-- that's a pretty decent trade even before you factor in that one of them can take metaplanar shortcuts and travel astrally, allowing them to get anywhere unwarded on the planet in under 4 hours without having to ever get a hold of a vessel. If you want to portray Possession spirits as powerful, that's fine. They are, and as long as you have a vessel available, they'll have better stats. I just find the way you imply that Materialization traditions are the weak sibling in all cases preposterous. There are top end combat situations where the added dice of a boosted up possessed vessel are certainly the best way to handle the situation, but those situations tend to be extremely rare relative to the times where all you need is an extra pair of low maintenance hands that can interact with the meat world while providing Powers, and in those cases Materialization is the pony to bet on.

[Starfish]

I think possession, as magic often does, gets a double standard applied to it. For the price of a couple of bound Force 5's, you can get a GE Vindicator minigun that will do a base 20P damage per action phase at -1AP. Put some APDS in there and it's -5. And a moderately decent samurai can hit with it. And that's before we get on to riggers sticking it on a drone to eliminate recoil altogether. Does it have disadvantages? Sure. But so does possession. I think the general rule in Shadowrun is that almost everything is "overpowered" until you misjudge the circumstances and get drekked. It's like a giant game of Rock, Paper, Scissors.
K.

I agree with that. And it happens with a lot of things in SR, not just magic (even though magic gets accused of brokeness a lot more than other aspects). The reason for that, in my opinion, is that everything can be taken to scary extremes, be it the possessed troll, a maximally armored cyberlimb-sammy, or the face with the really big social dice pool. I never liked to condemn an entire concept just because someone could theoretically take it to an extreme level.

A possessing spirit will be more dangerous in a direct confrontation than a manifesting spirit, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with that. After all, you need a vessel for that spirit, either yourself, or someone/something else in your surroundings. That possession test might fail (and I have seen it fail in very crucial moments during runs). Maybe no vessel will be around, in which case you have the spirit possess yourself. That puts your own body on the line, however.
The beauty of manifesting spirits is that they bring another player to the field when you need the backup, without having to rely on a possession test. And everyone except the most disciplined HTR teams will immediately indentify them as the most scary threat and focus on killing/avoiding that otherwordly thing, giving the runners enough space and time to regroup, retreat, or disable the opposition.

Speaking of powreful builds like the big, scary troll possessed by a high-force spirit: In our games one of the guidelines is that extreme measures will most likely result in similarly extreme reactions, as long as the oppostion would have the capability to do so. Sure, you can mop the floor with the street gang as a talented possession mage (as can several other character concepts), but corpsec will definitely call for magical backup once they spot you. For all they know, you could be one of those sheddim or insect spirits or any other kind of terrible extraplanar menace that the security guys have only heard stories about. Since a being possessed by a spirit becomes dual-natured, you open yourself up to attacks from the astral plane, so the wage-mages don't even have to move to your location, but can just pop into the astral to engage you.
Mundane threats shouldn't be discounted, too. A high armor value seems impressive at first, but armor is notoriously unreliable in SR. When it's bullets vs. armor, the bullets will eventually win, because they can never roll badly for their DV as armor can for its protection. 30 armor will protect from 10 DV on average, but that "average" is an important point. Just because your damage resistance rolls will average out in the long run, it doesn't make than one botched roll any less deadly.

This post has been edited by Starfish: Mar 17 2010, 06:10 PM

[Kyrel]

I'm going to throw in a thought here. It seems to me that most people here only considder using possession spirits of high Force (Force 5+). How about using a Mystic Adept designed for close combat, and with good physical stats? Sure, there'll be a limit to how powerful a spirit you can summon, but couldn't that possibly work reasonably?

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Patrick, your big trump card here is that a Force 8 Guardian Spirit in a buff troll is dangerous. You know what else is dangerous? A buff troll fighting alongside a Force 8 Guardian Spirit. They'll also have twice the passes assuming the troll has a form of initiative enhancement. They might not be as durable, granted, but they'll have comparable if not better offensive ability and can be two places at once-- that's a pretty decent trade even before you factor in that one of them can take metaplanar shortcuts and travel astrally, allowing them to get anywhere unwarded on the planet in under 4 hours without having to get a hold of a vessel on either end. If you want to portray Possession spirits as powerful, that's fine. They are, and as long as you have a vessel available, they'll have better stats. I just find the way you imply that Materialization traditions are the weak sibling in all cases preposterous. There are top end situations where the added dice of a boosted up possessed vessel are certainly the best way to handle the situation, but those situations tend to be extremely rare relative to the times where all you need is an extra pair of low maintenance hands that can interact with the meat world, and in those cases Materialization is the pony to bet on.

You know what's even more dangerous than a Force 8 guardian spirit and a buff troll? A buff troll and a force 8 guardian spirit that has just taken over the body of one of your allies. They'll also have twice the passes assuming the ally has some form of initiative enhancement. They might not be as durable, granted, but they'll have comparable if not better offensive capability and can be in two places at once.

Sorry, that felt childish. But really, Possession spirits gain a shitload of abilities and buffs from their possession power and the only argument I've seen in favor of Materialization spirits is that they don't need a vessel to materialize. But vessels are everywhere, that pencil, a doorknob, a stapler, an office worker (sorry, I'm at work right now), all are viable possession targets with ORs of 1 or 2, and if what you need is a pair of hands, then summoning a spirit with psychokinesis is just as easy as materializing a normal spirit. It just seems to me that possession spirits can do everything materialization spirits can do plus a whole bunch of things they can't with no real drawbacks.

@Kyrel: Yeah sure, it could work. The only problem with possessing adepts is that until you get channeling you lose most of your adept powers while possessed.

@Starfish: True, one of the main drawbacks to a possession combat mage is that it is so awesome and overpowered that the GM will be forced to send equally overpowered things at you, thus killing the rest of your team and leaving you mildly bruised. I suppose it's also true that its easier to work with low force materialization spirits and use them as distractions than it is to do with low force possession spirits, but I can counter that with the subtlety a possession spirit can use to apply its powers and have no one have any idea where they are coming from. A materialization spirit can draw fire from a team of corpsec, but a possession spirit can possess one of the corpsec's buttons and lightning bolt everyone else on his team with no more obviousness than an evilly glowing button on the guy's shirt.

[sn0mm1s]

I'm going to throw in a thought here. It seems to me that most people here only considder using possession spirits of high Force (Force 5+). How about using a Mystic Adept designed for close combat, and with good physical stats? Sure, there'll be a limit to how powerful a spirit you can summon, but couldn't that possibly work reasonably?

Not really, because each level of Force grants you 2 hardened armor and +1 to all physical stats. Losing 1 point of Force can't be made up through other means efficiently.

[Starfish]

I'm going to throw in a thought here. It seems to me that most people here only considder using possession spirits of high Force (Force 5+). How about using a Mystic Adept designed for close combat, and with good physical stats? Sure, there'll be a limit to how powerful a spirit you can summon, but couldn't that possibly work reasonably?

That could be an interesting concept. A neo-tribal warrior who calls the spirits of his ancestors to lend him strength for the upcoming battle, for example. A guardian spirit would be a good choise here, not only for RP purposes, but also because they have plenty of combat skills at their disposal (remember, you can't access your own skill while possessed unless you have the channeling metamagic).

[sn0mm1s]

The beauty of manifesting spirits is that they bring another player to the field when you need the backup, without having to rely on a possession test. And everyone except the most disciplined HTR teams will immediately indentify them as the most scary threat and focus on killing/avoiding that otherwordly thing, giving the runners enough space and time to regroup, retreat, or disable the opposition.

Speaking of powreful builds like the big, scary troll possessed by a high-force spirit: In our games one of the guidelines is that extreme measures will most likely result in similarly extreme reactions, as long as the oppostion would have the capability to do so. Sure, you can mop the floor with the street gang as a talented possession mage (as can several other character concepts), but corpsec will definitely call for magical backup once they spot you. For all they know, you could be one of those sheddim or insect spirits or any other kind of terrible extraplanar menace that the security guys have only heard stories about. Since a being possessed by a spirit becomes dual-natured, you open yourself up to attacks from the astral plane, so the wage-mages don't even have to move to your location, but can just pop into the astral to engage you.
Mundane threats shouldn't be discounted, too. A high armor value seems impressive at first, but armor is notoriously unreliable in SR. When it's bullets vs. armor, the bullets will eventually win, because they can never roll badly for their DV as armor can for its protection. 30 armor will protect from 10 DV on average, but that "average" is an important point. Just because your damage resistance rolls will average out in the long run, it doesn't make than one botched roll any less deadly.

Sure, but wouldn't corpsec have the same reaction if some Force 8 materialized spirit was wreaking havoc? If a bunch of astral backup can be called to defend a place wouldn't it make sense to *always* call that backup? Also, 30 dice for a possessed troll is *low*. If we are really dealing with a Force 8 spirit. That is probably a Body of 17, 16 hardened armor (which means the DV has to be above 16 to even cause a damage resistance roll), plus whatever physical armor is being worn (at least another 15 pts), plus an armor spell most likely, and don't forget the +1 natural armor. You are looking at over 50 soak dice *if* the DV is over 16.

[Starfish]

Sure, but wouldn't corpsec have the same reaction if some Force 8 materialized spirit was wreaking havoc? If a bunch of astral backup can be called to defend a place wouldn't it make sense to *always* call that backup? Also, 30 dice for a possessed troll is *low*. If we are really dealing with a Force 8 spirit. That is probably a Body of 17, 16 hardened armor (which means the DV has to be above 16 to even cause a damage resistance roll), plus whatever physical armor is being worn (at least another 15 pts), plus an armor spell most likely, and don't forget the +1 natural armor. You are looking at over 50 soak dice *if* the DV is over 16.

Yes, a force 8 spirit is always a dangerous threat, no matter in which form it is encountered. Besides, Corpsec will always call for backup once they discover any intruders (unless the runners really look inept enough to just be apprehended). They're neither trained nor paid enough to engage directly, but will focus on locating, monitoring, and possibly stalling any opposition until the specialists arrive to take care of the problem. Summoning a high force (not entirely without risk, anyway) spirit will convince security that a strong response might be needed to deal with the situation, just as being spotted while walking into a secure installation with an assault cannon would.

And even with very high armor, personally I wouldn't feel confident enough to stand in the open and face high powered automatic fire unless I absolutely had to. I saw enough fights where that 25 dice damage resistance test resulted in 3 or 4 hits and the spending/burning of edge just to stay alive.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Yes, but we're not talking about 25 resist dice, we're talking 50. On a 400BP starting character. Who can rip tanks in half. Who can take rockets to the face. Who has the willpower and counterspelling dice to resist magical opposition. Who has access to spellcasting. What if this character isn't a troll, what if he's a shapeshifter? There's no way he's going down in one or two attacks, most burst fire won't penetrate his hardened armor, he regenerates stick n shock damage or laser damage. Direct damage spells still affect him, if they can get through his magical defenses. And what if we give him a pain editor as well? By turning it on before being possessed, he can gain its benefits during possession. Now he is virtually immune to stun damage, if a direct combat spell wants to affect him they must penetrate his Body of insane. I don't even know how to respond to a truly twinked out possession mage. He'd have hardened armor of crazy that could resist normal bursts, he'd be immune to stun damage, if he was attacked by a helicopter he could possess the pilot and crash it, if he was attacked by a tank he could again possess the pilot or use an lightning aura melee attack to disable it, if he was attacked by a mage he'd have counterspelling, immunity to stun, and a body of resist everything you could throw at him. He might be vunerable to astral attacks, but spirits come with astral combat and he'd have other bound spirits he could call to fight for him if he needed to and they'd still have to deal with his huge damage track. As you said, bad rolls wouldn't be too much of a problem if he had a decent edge score. Maybe you couldn't get all of this at chargen, I'd have to make the character to see, but you certainly could get all of it eventually, and then you'd have a character who's only real vulnerability is a GM fiated satellite strike.

Edit: Made the character, 47 resist damage dice, physical damage track with 17 boxes and 18 body, modded high velocity ares alpha as primary weapon, 18P damage at AP -2 with ex rounds, no recoil, 18 dice to hit, regenerates with a pool of 26 each round, has the pain editor and military grade armor as well as a rating 4 power focus, spellcasting 3 with a manipulation specialization, stunbolt and armor as spells, 15 dice to resist combat spells, 4 force 5 guardian spirits bound at chargen with 2 services each. Not subtle at all but he is a one-man army at 400BP.

[pbangarth]

Not to mention that a character, especially a troll, built around possession would be summoning force 8 or 10 spirits, not 6. Magic 5 + Skill 5 + Specialization Guardian Spirits + Sun Mentor + Force 4 summoning Focus = 18 dice for summoning spirits. Summoning a force 8 spirit would net you 3 services on average.

It is easy to toss around the scary example of the Force 8+ spirit, especially when you ignore the Drain (Physical Drain in your example). All those Attributes and Skills and Foci used to maximize the mage's ability to summon the spirit are expensive. Then there are the Attributes required to resist the Drain (In a "buff troll" who is likely to suffer in at least one of the Drain Attributes). A whole lot has just been spent just to get the character to the point where she can be fit to summon one of these monsters, and survive most of the time. What else is she good for? Seriously. What else do you have BP for?

And if she is mentally buff enough to survive the Drain, she is also more difficult to possess. What a shame it is to summon a monster spirit and then resist its attempt to possess you. Oops. All that Drain and nothing to show for it.

People keep pooh poohing Drain. It will get you. It will! Especially if you keep pushing it with high Force spirits at the edge of your abilities. And whatever damage the summoner carries forward to the possession will affect the combined entity.

Yes, but we're not talking about 25 resist dice, we're talking 50.

Just because you may have the capacity to develop a 50 dice damage resistance pool right at chargen, doesn't mean you can actually build one. Where is the armor that can take advantage of the huge BOD Attribute, as your number suggests? A Force 8 spirit has ItNW of 16, so that leaves 34 dice to come from BOD and armour. So, a BOD of , what 14, 15 (unless the you've also spent a huge pile of BP on the BOD Attribute, along with everything else so far) leaves about 20 to come from armour. Where does she get that kind of armour at chargen? How does she deal with AP that affects both the ItNW and the regular armour? How does she deal with the punishing negative modifiers of over-burdening armour when the spirit leaves her body or is diminished in some other way (services over, Banished, blasted from Astral space, shrunk by background count)?

And we haven't even touched the problems arising from dealing with a spirit that is smarter, sneakier and more forceful in personality than the mage.

EDIT: I see you added an Edit to your post, Patrick. I would like to see how much just those things you list cost in BP. I submit that there is not much left. I see 105 BP just for a Troll with BOD 10. Where are the Drain Resistance Attributes? What cost for military grade armour? Qualities? Magic will be 15 + 40 (to get MAG 5) = 55.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

It is easy to toss around the scary example of the Force 8+ spirit, especially when you ignore the Drain (Physical Drain in your example). All those Attributes and Skills and Foci used to maximize the mage's ability to summon the spirit are expensive. Then there are the Attributes required to resist the Drain (In a "buff troll" who is likely to suffer in at least one of the Drain Attributes). A whole lot has just been spent just to get the character to the point where she can be fit to summon one of these monsters, and survive most of the time. What else is she good for? Seriously. What else do you have BP for?

And if she is mentally buff enough to survive the Drain, she is also more difficult to possess. What a shame it is to summon a monster spirit and then resist its attempt to possess you. Oops. All that Drain and nothing to show for it.

People keep pooh poohing Drain. It will get you. It will! Especially if you keep pushing it with high Force spirits at the edge of your abilities. And whatever damage the summoner carries forward to the possession will affect the combined entity.

Just because you may have the capacity to develop a 50 dice damage resistance pool right at chargen, doesn't mean you can actually build one. Where is the armor that can take advantage of the huge BOD Attribute, as your number suggests? A Force 8 spirit has ItNW of 16, so that leaves 34 dice to come from BOD and armour. So, a BOD of , what 14, 15 (unless the you've also spent a huge pile of BP on the BOD Attribute, along with everything else so far) leaves about 20 to come from armour. Where does she get that kind of armour at chargen? How does she deal with AP that affects both the ItNW and the regular armour? How does she deal with the punishing negative modifiers of over-burdening armour when the spirit leaves her body or is diminished in some other way (services over, Banished, blasted from Astral space, shrunk by background count)?

And we haven't even touched the problems arising from dealing with a spirit that is smarter, sneakier and more forceful in personality than the mage.

EDIT: I see you added an Edit to your post, Patrick. I would like to see how much just those things you list cost in BP. I submit that there is not much left. I see 105 BP just for a Troll with BOD 10.

The things in the post take up the full 400BP, and sorry, it's a shifter bear, not a troll, however, the 18 dice summoning pool only takes up about 88 BP without cyber. Drain is healable with first aid, and while this character doesn't have the logic for it, it wouldn't be so difficult to build a character with drain reduction as its focus in addition to being a possession monster. Admittedly, the bear in my post would be taking 2 to 4 drain on the summoning test each time, but with 17 boxes total, I don't think that's too much of a problem, especially considering that he's not likely to take any more. Like I said, 1 force 8 spirit with 3 services is pretty usable for multiple combats, especially with the right services, and the danger of not being able to possess yourself is...slim to say the least as you count as a prepared vessel and the spirit gets its force x2 +6 to possess you. My bear isn't really an example of a character I'd ever want to play, although making him a moster to fight might be interesting if I really wanted to give players a challenge. I'd probably balance things out a bit more, reduce his damage resistance pool down to 30 or so to give him first aid, make him a bird shifter for the extra drain dice, take some utility spells, but I would overall still have a rather overpowered character once combat came around.

[sn0mm1s]

Yes, but we're not talking about 25 resist dice, we're talking 50. On a 400BP starting character. Who can rip tanks in half. Who can take rockets to the face. Who has the willpower and counterspelling dice to resist magical opposition. Who has access to spellcasting. What if this character isn't a troll, what if he's a shapeshifter? There's no way he's going down in one or two attacks, most burst fire won't penetrate his hardened armor, he regenerates stick n shock damage or laser damage. Direct damage spells still affect him, if they can get through his magical defenses. And what if we give him a pain editor as well? By turning it on before being possessed, he can gain its benefits during possession. Now he is virtually immune to stun damage, if a direct combat spell wants to affect him they must penetrate his Body of insane. I don't even know how to respond to a truly twinked out possession mage. He'd have hardened armor of crazy that could resist normal bursts, he'd be immune to stun damage, if he was attacked by a helicopter he could possess the pilot and crash it, if he was attacked by a tank he could again possess the pilot or use an lightning aura melee attack to disable it, if he was attacked by a mage he'd have counterspelling, immunity to stun, and a body of resist everything you could throw at him. He might be vunerable to astral attacks, but spirits come with astral combat and he'd have other bound spirits he could call to fight for him if he needed to and they'd still have to deal with his huge damage track. As you said, bad rolls wouldn't be too much of a problem if he had a decent edge score. Maybe you couldn't get all of this at chargen, I'd have to make the character to see, but you certainly could get all of it eventually, and then you'd have a character who's only real vulnerability is a GM fiated satellite strike.

Edit: Made the character, 47 resist damage dice, physical damage track with 17 boxes and 18 body, modded high velocity ares alpha as primary weapon, 18P damage at AP -2 with ex rounds, no recoil, 18 dice to hit, regenerates with a pool of 26 each round, has the pain editor and military grade armor as well as a rating 4 power focus, spellcasting 3 with a manipulation specialization, stunbolt and armor as spells, 15 dice to resist combat spells, 4 force 5 guardian spirits bound at chargen with 2 services each. Not subtle at all but he is a one-man army at 400BP.

Well, sort of.
There are a lot of variables when dealing with a possession mage and high force spirit.

Basic scenario:
Let's first assume this is a starting character using BP (so no metamagic/initiation) and a Force 8 spirit.
At this point, the starting character cannot have the spirit bound (character creation limits the Force of bound spirit to the character's Magic attribute). To bind a Force 8 spirit they will be expecting to soak a total of 6P + 10P on average which to survive pretty much requires a troll with a 9 body to survive. If the GM has spirit resist the binding with Edge the troll is pretty much dead, but let's assume that the troll survives and has this thing bound.

If the spirit does not have Counterspelling (every spirit in SR4A) an OK mage (magic 5), using Edge and overcasting, has a very good chance of hurting the spirit because the spirit will *usually not* use Edge and the possession mage *cannot* command it to use Edge or use his own Edge. An OK mage can overcast 2 Force 10 stunbolts in a single complex action and have only to soak 5P drain twice. This pretty much guarantees that the spirit goes away. A spirit with Counterspelling (most in SM) will need a better mage to take it down but the mage will still have a decent chance. Magic 6, spellcasting 6, +2 specialization, +2 mentor spirit, +2 power foci, +Edge, will be able to hit the spirit (even with 16 counterspelling dice) with a force 12 stunbolt without much difficulty. This might result in 6-9P drain on the mage but it will get rid of the spirit. Only if the spirit is also using Edge will be a toss up.

If the spirit is *not* bound it is highly likely that, along with the above situations, an Edge helped banishing test will remove enough services to send the spirit away.

In most of these scenarios the anti-spirit side should spend Edge to go first as well. If the possession mage goes first (likely with 20+ initiative) your Awakened guys will be targeted/possessed/taken out of the fight before they have a chance to do anything.

Once metamagic comes into play the fight can get easier or harder. Now the possession mage can spend Edge and cast spells, but their mental attributes and skills are lower - so it boils down to most fights (who goes first, who survives the first round, who spends Edge the wisest).

The only paper to the possession mage's rock that I can see is a social adept with Commanding Voice. You can easily get a 20+ dice pool for that particular power even a Force 8 spirit would only get 7 dice to resist. As long as the mage is a metahuman (troll) and can hear the adept the adept could say "End your spirit's services." or any other manner of things to get rid of the spirit.