Possession Tradition Tactical Manual, for GMs as well as players Options

[Patrick the Gnom...]

You can't use the spirit's edge when it's possessing you, any more than you could use it when you summon it. When possessing, the spirit's mental and special attributes are used. It doesn't get mental and special attributes equal to the possessing spirit, you're actually using the possessing spirit's mental and special attributes, and you are never allowed to force a spirit to use its edge in your service.

For the purposes of channeling I would venture to guess that it was intended for channeling mages to use their own mental and special attributes while channeling, but as we're discussing RAW here, and RAW doesn't seem to support this, I guess I'll just have to leave it up to GMs to decide how they want to deal with it.

Even if you could find a GM that would allow you to use a possessing spirit's edge, it still wouldn't help you much with an ally spirit, ally spirit's get an edge stat equal to their summoner's. If the summoning mage has and edge of 3, then force 2 or force 12, the ally spirit is going to have an edge of 3.

Even so, if a player builds up enough karma to get a force 12 ally spirit, manages to bite the drain to summon it, manages to get lucky on the binding test and actually live through the drain, then there is no reason that ally shouldn't be just as loyal to its summoner as any other ally spirit. After all, such loyalty is hard-wired into their spirit formula.

[knasser]

You can't use the spirit's edge when it's possessing you, any more than you could use it when you summon it. When possessing, the spirit's mental and special attributes are used. It doesn't get mental and special attributes equal to the possessing spirit, you're actually using the possessing spirit's mental and special attributes, and you are never allowed to force a spirit to use its edge in your service.

Heh. After arguing with you for around ten pages, I find you suddenly put one of my own points better than I did. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I haven't forgotten about your challenge, btw. But I've hit my lengthy post budget for today. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

K.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Heh. After arguing with you for around ten pages, I find you suddenly put one of my own points better than I did. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I haven't forgotten about your challenge, btw. But I've hit my lengthy post budget for today. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

K.

And I have quite enjoyed our argument and look forward to your answer to my challenge (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[knasser]

And I have quite enjoyed our argument and look forward to your answer to my challenge (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I think you're arguing because you believe you're right, not out of Internet Rage, and that's my reason also. We obviously can't both be right if we disagree, so hopefully one of us will convince the other and we will achieve TRUTH.

Naturally, I think that it will turn out to be me, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) but if we're both simply interested in establishing what is correct, then the debate can be fun instead of bitter. I'll come up with examples for you - materialisation better than possession, excluding the highest forces. Got it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

K.

[crizh]

Well, honestly.

If you're going to go 'read the rules, nya, nya, nya, nya, nya' it pays to be right...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Back to the subject at hand.

Seriously, can you not see that you're trying to have it both ways?

If you want to view it as a purely mechanical problem then you have to stick to the mechanics.

When the Spirit Possesses the Magician, from a strictly mechanical pov, both cease to exist.

Go back and look through that last post-string.

You have continued to use the phrase 'spirit's Edge' as if that still has some meaning. Any argument predicated on that phrase fails before you even get to the full stop at the end of the sentence.

One creature, two minds, shared control.

The only exception to this is the explicit bar on using powers without expending a service.

The default position remains that the Channelling Magician is at liberty to burn Edge at will. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate why this should not be the case.

That point, however, is moot. Burnt Edge cancels Burnt Edge. I suppose if you burned Edge down to 1 before starting the Binding the Spirit would have none left to resist but that defeats the purpose really.

I would rule that spending Edge on the Binding roll would preclude spending Edge on the resist in this circumstance, just as I would not permit a Magician to Edge a spellcasting test and the associated Drain test. You may only spend one point of Edge on any action. As Spirit and Magician are a single creature in this instance only the first one to spend Edge on a particular action gets to do so.

Given that, interpretation, of the Edge rules, you could Bind a Spirit of Force up to roughly the size of your Binding Dicepool. A Magician with a Binding pool of 24 Dice could use Edge and expect to get around 26 hits which ought to be more than sufficient to Bind a Force 24. He stands a reasonable chance of Binding Force 36 if he is a gambling man. Drain would be horrific but that is what Burning Edge is perfect for.

----

If you can Bind a Force 12 Ally in the first place you can keep it under control when re-binding it. The rules are vague but it would seem that you suffer Drain twice if the Spirit tries to break free which could certainly smart but if you are trying to Bind Force 12's you ought to already be prepared for soaking massive Drain. Once again Burning Edge is your friend.

----

Look, all I'm trying to say here is that I think giving a Magician access to the Mental/Special attributes of a Possessing Spirit is a serious risk of opening up exploits that will result in hurried patching with ad-hoc houserules to prevent cataclysmic min/maxing.

I'm a bad man. It's no secret that while I like to role-play I also like to role-play a character that is optimized to the best of my ability.

The min/maxer in me saw how you think possession works and a big bell started ringing. I'm pretty good at spotting cracks in a system that can be exploited to give a character biblical power. That one is a crack that I could sail the QE2 through sideways.

The Possession Mage I have just built, immediately prior to reading this thread gains 33 points of Mental and Special attributes under those rules.

That is a massive increase in power that he had absolutely no need of.

[knasser]

Well, honestly.

If you're going to go 'read the rules, nya, nya, nya, nya, nya' it pays to be right...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Well now I know I never said that because I spell nyah with an 'h;. ;p

Back to the subject at hand.

Seriously, can you not see that you're trying to have it both ways?

Honestly, no. I understand what you're saying and it's probably not worth going through another circuit of saying the same things to each other. You think I'm dodging something because I say use the spirit's special attributes for some purposes, but don't let the magician spend the spirit's Edge. I don't see them as the same thing at all and RAW doesn't provide any reason to treat them so. In fact, the measure of control that Channeling gives you is pretty clearly spelt out: you gain motor-control of your body and access to your skills, everything else handle as normal possession. That pretty much precludes permission to spend Edge.

You also object to my using the term "spirit's Edge" instead of writing "the Edge attribute that is based on the spirit's Edge and is under the control of the spirit's mind" every time, but I'm afraid you're just going to have to live with that shorthand. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

When the Spirit Possesses the Magician, from a strictly mechanical pov, both cease to exist.

Go back and look through that last post-string.

(snip...)

One creature, two minds, shared control.

The only exception to this is the explicit bar on using powers without expending a service.

"Post-string" ? But anyway, the entities merge into a new one, but both minds still exist and the "shared control" is under the parameters listed in Channeling: access to skills and motor-control. Saying the only exception is the explicit bar on using powers, doesn't work. Saying X is not so does not mean everything not X is so. Surely you accept that principle?

The default position remains that the Channelling Magician is at liberty to burn Edge at will. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate why this should not be the case.

The default position is that as the book says, handle possession normally with the explicit exceptions listed under channeling. And those exceptions don't list spending Edge.

I'm going to skip all the stuff about burning Edge points for critical successes on binding rules. I have no interest in it, and as far as I'm concerned, if a player is dumb enough to try that outside of exceptionally dramatic circumstances that necessitated it, the spirit's just going to use its own Edge in response. RAW and in-character.

Look, all I'm trying to say here is that I think giving a Magician access to the Mental/Special attributes of a Possessing Spirit is a serious risk of opening up exploits that will result in hurried patching with ad-hoc houserules to prevent cataclysmic min/maxing.

And you're not getting what I'm saying: substituting the spirit's special attributes is more penalty then blessing on the whole. Even leaving out losing the ability to spend Edge which you don't accept, it basically forces possession magicians to only summon high-force spirits. That is a terrible restriction.

I'm a bad man. It's no secret that while I like to role-play I also like to role-play a character that is optimized to the best of my ability.

The min/maxer in me saw how you think possession works and a big bell started ringing. I'm pretty good at spotting cracks in a system that can be exploited to give a character biblical power. That one is a crack that I could sail the QE2 through sideways.

The Possession Mage I have just built, immediately prior to reading this thread gains 33 points of Mental and Special attributes under those rules.

That is a massive increase in power that he had absolutely no need of.

Sorry, you're not a good optimiser at all. These high-force characters have all the utility and life-expectancy of a mayfly in any game other than a limited dungeon crawl. That's my point.

K.

[sn0mm1s]

You can't use the spirit's edge when it's possessing you, any more than you could use it when you summon it. When possessing, the spirit's mental and special attributes are used. It doesn't get mental and special attributes equal to the possessing spirit, you're actually using the possessing spirit's mental and special attributes, and you are never allowed to force a spirit to use its edge in your service.

For the purposes of channeling I would venture to guess that it was intended for channeling mages to use their own mental and special attributes while channeling, but as we're discussing RAW here, and RAW doesn't seem to support this, I guess I'll just have to leave it up to GMs to decide how they want to deal with it.

Even if you could find a GM that would allow you to use a possessing spirit's edge, it still wouldn't help you much with an ally spirit, ally spirit's get an edge stat equal to their summoner's. If the summoning mage has and edge of 3, then force 2 or force 12, the ally spirit is going to have an edge of 3.

Even so, if a player builds up enough karma to get a force 12 ally spirit, manages to bite the drain to summon it, manages to get lucky on the binding test and actually live through the drain, then there is no reason that ally shouldn't be just as loyal to its summoner as any other ally spirit. After all, such loyalty is hard-wired into their spirit formula.

Yeah, I don't get how people think summoning and binding a Force 12 spirit is easy. Especially with a relatively new character. I wrote a program where I can input the summoning pool, binding pool, health boxes, drain pool, target spirit's force, if the summoner uses edge on the summoning/summoning drain/binding/binding drain, if the spirit uses edge on the summoning, and how many dice in their first aid pool to try to heal them between the summoning and the binding.

So, Force 12 spirit, 18 dice summoning pool, 20 dice binding pool, 10 drain dice, 13 boxes of damage (body 10), 18 first aid dice (with a skill of 6), edge used on all 4 tests.

Results of 100000 summonings:

Spirit uses no Edge and summoner always continues if conscious
Bind the spirit about 57% of the time
Die on binding about 36% of the time.

If the spirit uses Edge on the summoning and summoner always continues if conscious
Zero boxes or worse on summoning: 10% - this probably won't result in a death since the spirit isn't uncontrolled.
Bind:37%
Die on binding :40%

If you wait for the most ideal situation where you heal all the drain on the summoning:
No Edge used by spirit
Bind:49%
Die on binding :26%

Edge used by Spirit
Zero boxes or worse on summoning: 10% - this probably won't result in a death since the spirit isn't uncontrolled.
Bind: 18%
Die on binding: 10%

[sn0mm1s]

Sorry, you're not a good optimiser at all. These high-force characters have all the utility and life-expectancy of a mayfly in any game other than a limited dungeon crawl. That's my point.

K.

I dunno about that. The troll I posted earlier is a combat monster and has great utility through his spirits. He has 2 bound Force 6, highly likely a bound Force 8, and can summon, not bind, Force 9s with little difficulty. (I am assuming a GM would probably play the Edge card if the spirit's force was greater than 1.5x my magic.

I do agree that Edge can't be used when possessed - even while channeling. SM is very specific about spirits being forced to use Edge and Channeling only gives you the ability to use your skills - not the spirit's edge.

[knasser]

I dunno about that. The troll I posted earlier is a combat monster and has great utility through his spirits. He has 2 bound Force 6, highly likely a bound Force 8, and can summon, not bind, Force 9s with little difficulty. (I am assuming a GM would probably play the Edge card if the spirit's force was greater than 1.5x my magic.

I do agree that Edge can't be used when possessed - even while channeling. SM is very specific about spirits being forced to use Edge and Channeling only gives you the ability to use your skills - not the spirit's edge.

I was thinking more of those bear things and various examples that were stated for purposes of argument but never actually posted in full. I've had to skim a little in this thread, I'll go back and have a look at your one. It's probably more sensible than the others. In case it's got lost, I've not been saying that possession isn't useful, but I don't think it's the broken monstrosity a few people are insisting it is.

K.

[Brol_The_Mighty]

I believe the point that criz is trying to make regarding using the Spirit's edge, is that when you're possessed you create a new, dual entity. Meaning that its not the Spirit's Edge anymore, but the new entity's Edge....which includes you.

[knasser]

I believe the point that criz is trying to make regarding using the Spirit's edge, is that when you're possessed you create a new, dual entity. Meaning that its not the Spirit's Edge anymore, but the new entity's Edge....which includes you.

This is so, but he goes on to say that the magician gets to spend that Edge which is where people disagree. Channeling doesn't give you anything over normal possession other than access to your skills and motor-control over your body.

[Brol_The_Mighty]

Hmmm, maybe I need to re-read the rules on Possession then. I didn't see where it said you could no longer spend your own Edge.

[crizh]

the measure of control that Channeling gives you is pretty clearly spelt out: you gain motor-control of your body and access to your skills, everything else handle as normal possession. That pretty much precludes permission to spend Edge.

What?

What exactly can you do in SR that isn't skill use, motor control or power use? Virtually every Test in the system is an example of Skill Use. The rules clearly allow you to spend Edge on any Test. That is the default position. Any effect that permits you to make a Test that you otherwise would not be allowed to make but does not permit you to spend Edge on that test explicitly calls out that exception. Because it is an exception. Possession does not preclude the ability to spend Edge. It precludes the ability to act which makes using Edge unlikely. As soon as you regain the ability to act you may spend Edge, an ability you never lost, merely became unlikely to have opportunity to use.

You also object to my using the term "spirit's Edge" instead of writing "the Edge attribute that is based on the spirit's Edge and is under the control of the spirit's mind" every time, but I'm afraid you're just going to have to live with that shorthand. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

If you actually used it to mean the later that would be fine. You have been using it not as short hand but as a self justifying explanation as to why the Magician may not spend the Edge in question, ergo that the Edge in question belongs to the Spirit.

The Edge does not belong to the Spirit. It does not belong to the Magician. It belongs to the Spirigician/Magirit amalgam. The minds of the Spirit and Magician continue to exist and both share control of the amalgam. The Magician may not use the Spirit derived powers, as any other activity possible in SR involves motor control or skill use, it is true to say that the Magician is free to do anything bar use the powers that originated with the Spirit.

"Post-string" ? But anyway, the entities merge into a new one, but both minds still exist and the "shared control" is under the parameters listed in Channeling: access to skills and motor-control. Saying the only exception is the explicit bar on using powers, doesn't work. Saying X is not so does not mean everything not X is so. Surely you accept that principle?

Yeeees.

I'm pretty sure this is my argument. Possession and Channelling say nothing about Edge therefore the base rules are not changed. Skillwires say 'no Edge' and therefore you do not get to spend Edge.

You are mistaking the two sides of this argument. If X is not usually the case then failing to mention X does not change that fact. If X is usually the case then not mentioning X causes the status quo to remain.

The default position is that as the book says, handle possession normally with the explicit exceptions listed under channeling. And those exceptions don't list not spending Edge.

There, fixed that for you.

I'm going to skip all the stuff about burning Edge points for critical successes on binding rules. I have no interest in it, and as far as I'm concerned, if a player is dumb enough to try that outside of exceptionally dramatic circumstances that necessitated it, the spirit's just going to use its own Edge in response. RAW and in-character.

Burning Edge is moot. It's been fixed in SR4A.

And you're not getting what I'm saying: substituting the spirit's special attributes is more penalty then blessing on the whole. Even leaving out losing the ability to spend Edge which you don't accept, it basically forces possession magicians to only summon high-force spirits. That is a terrible restriction.

It only forces you to summon high force spirits for channelling. Oh God, noes, the huge-manatee!!!

For 9 karma you can bind a Force 9 into long term service, hard max your Mental Attributes, assuming you're Human, and get 3 points of Magic worth 120 karma.

You'll have to use other vessels for utility Spirits.

Dash.

Sorry, you're not a good optimiser at all. These high-force characters have all the utility and life-expectancy of a mayfly in any game other than a limited dungeon crawl. That's my point.

K.

Based on what evidence?

That feels very much like a cheap dig.

[pbangarth]

One creature, two minds, shared control.

This point seems to be glossed over in the whole discussion. If it is shared control, then neither one can use the shared power/Attribute without the consent of the other.

Magician: "I will use a point of Edge to win this test."

Spirit: "No, you won't."

End of discussion.

[sn0mm1s]

Street Magic explicitly says that you cannot force a spirit to use Edge. Possession also states that it is to be treated exactly like Materialization unless otherwise noted. Materialization mages can't have their spirts use their Edge. Possession mages therefore cannot have their spirits use Edge.

Look at it this way, the result of a spirit possessing someone *other* than the mage is essentially the same thing as possessing the mage. The person's Edge is replaced with the spirit's Edge. You cannot force that spirit to use Edge just because it is an amalgamation of the 3rd party and the spirit. Just because it is mage that is possessed does not mean those rules change. You still cannot force the spirit to use Edge.

[crizh]

This point seems to be glossed over in the whole discussion. If it is shared control, then neither one can use the shared power/Attribute without the consent of the other.

Magician: "I will use a point of Edge to win this test."

Spirit: "No, you won't."

End of discussion.

It doesn't say anything about either partner having a veto.

Bearing in mind that the Spirit is essentially the Magician's slave.

He can't order it to spend it's own Edge but he can certainly order it not to veto him spending his.

And another thing....

I just re-read that Willow character you created.

For shame.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

What?

What exactly can you do in SR that isn't skill use, motor control or power use? Virtually every Test in the system is an example of Skill Use. The rules clearly allow you to spend Edge on any Test. That is the default position. Any effect that permits you to make a Test that you otherwise would not be allowed to make but does not permit you to spend Edge on that test explicitly calls out that exception. Because it is an exception. Possession does not preclude the ability to spend Edge. It precludes the ability to act which makes using Edge unlikely. As soon as you regain the ability to act you may spend Edge, an ability you never lost, merely became unlikely to have opportunity to use.



If you actually used it to mean the later that would be fine. You have been using it not as short hand but as a self justifying explanation as to why the Magician may not spend the Edge in question, ergo that the Edge in question belongs to the Spirit.

The Edge does not belong to the Spirit. It does not belong to the Magician. It belongs to the Spirigician/Magirit amalgam. The minds of the Spirit and Magician continue to exist and both share control of the amalgam. The Magician may not use the Spirit derived powers, as any other activity possible in SR involves motor control or skill use, it is true to say that the Magician is free to do anything bar use the powers that originated with the Spirit.




Yeeees.

I'm pretty sure this is my argument. Possession and Channelling say nothing about Edge therefore the base rules are not changed. Skillwires say 'no Edge' and therefore you do not get to spend Edge.

You are mistaking the two sides of this argument. If X is not usually the case then failing to mention X does not change that fact. If X is usually the case then not mentioning X causes the status quo to remain.



There, fixed that for you.



Burning Edge is moot. It's been fixed in SR4A.



It only forces you to summon high force spirits for channelling. Oh God, noes, the huge-manatee!!!

For 9 karma you can bind a Force 9 into long term service, hard max your Mental Attributes, assuming you're Human, and get 3 points of Magic worth 120 karma.

You'll have to use other vessels for utility Spirits.

Dash.



Based on what evidence?

That feels very much like a cheap dig.

Honestly, do either of you actually want to allow a magician to spend the possessing spirit's edge? Whether you think that mages should not have access to a spirit's mental and special attributes while channeling or you think that a possessing mage shouldn't be able to spend a spirit's edge while channeling, both of you agree that a magician should not be able to access a spirit's edge. If that's the case then crizh, please find another bone to pick.

In the case of spending karma to possess yourself with a force 9 spirit for a year and a day...you now look like something out of the exorcist and can no longer walk outside without people screaming about shedim, gratz. Maybe being hunted by the military and getting arrested everywhere you go is worth mental stats of 9 to you but I think most PCs will choose to forego that particular option.

[crizh]

No I don't think a Magician should get access to a Spirit's Edge.

Or Magic, Intuition, Logic, Charisma or Willpower.

But it is clearly one or the other. You get none of them or all of them.

-------

Long-term binding.

Tri-d Phantasm and Manascape.

Job done.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

It is in fact not one or the other, at least not clearly. A strong argument can be made for the mental and special attributes you get while channeling belonging solely to the spirit, with you only gaining access to them, and in that case you would not gain access to the spirit's edge as a mage can never force a spirit to spend edge. Nevertheless, I do actually agree with you that a channeling mage should use his own mental and special attributes, and that that subject was overlooked when they made the channeling rules. But because of the wording of the channeling rules, that would have to be a house rule, and deciding whether or not a possessed mage gets to use his edge or the spirits edge or any edge at all is more of a GM interpretation than something that's clear one way or the other based on actual RAW.

[crizh]

Well in one way we agree.

In the other we do not. They become the Mage's stat's, to all intents and purposes, and while he cannot instruct the Spirit to spend Edge he is quite entitled to spend his own.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Well in one way we agree.

In the other we do not. They become the Mage's stat's, to all intents and purposes, and while he cannot instruct the Spirit to spend Edge he is quite entitled to spend his own.

And that's where we disagree. I don't think the mage's mental stats suddenly become equal to the spirit's, I think he gets to use them, and that is in fact what the possession sidebar says on page 102 of Street Magic. If you can show me a place where it says that a possessed being has mental and special stats equal to the possessing spirit's then I will agree that whoever has control of the being should be able to use those stats as normal, but because the stats being used actually belong to the spirit and not to the combined entity, the summoner should not be able to use the spirit's edge while channeling. This may mean that a summoner can not use edge while channeling, even though it is not explicitly stated in the rules, because his edge attribute, as well as his Charisma, Intuition, Logic and Willpower, effectively do not exist while he is being possessed by a spirit. I agree that this is not intuitive, that's why I recommend using the summoner's stats when channeling, but this is the way the rules are written and a valid interpretation if a GM so chooses.

[sn0mm1s]

And that's where we disagree. I don't think the mage's mental stats suddenly become equal to the spirit's, I think he gets to use them, and that is in fact what the possession sidebar says on page 102 of Street Magic. If you can show me a place where it says that a possessed being has mental and special stats equal to the possessing spirit's then I will agree that whoever has control of the being should be able to use those stats as normal, but because the stats being used actually belong to the spirit and not to the combined entity, the summoner should not be able to use the spirit's edge while channeling. This may mean that a summoner can not use edge while channeling, even though it is not explicitly stated in the rules, because his edge attribute, as well as his Charisma, Intuition, Logic and Willpower, effectively do not exist while he is being possessed by a spirit. I agree that this is not intuitive, that's why I recommend using the summoner's stats when channeling, but this is the way the rules are written and a valid interpretation if a GM so chooses.

I think it is much simpler than this. The mage gets to use everything but Edge.

A mage can have a Materialized spirit cast a spell. In effect, he is using the spirit's Magic stat and drain stats. He is in fact commanding the spirit to use them. However, he *still* cannot use Edge because that is explicitly denied. If the spirit possesses him, and he has channeling (or the spirit has some spells it can cast) he can have the spirit cast the spell. In game terms, a mage with channeling, possessed by a Force 8 spirit has a Magic rating of 8, his two drain stats are 8, and the sorcery skill is either the spirit's or the mage's - whichever one is higher. The dual entity resists spells with the lower of the stats because that is explicitly stated.

If you can have a Materialized spirit cast Force 8 spells then the Possession spirit can as well but you cannot use Edge.

[sn0mm1s]

I think you're arguing because you believe you're right, not out of Internet Rage, and that's my reason also. We obviously can't both be right if we disagree, so hopefully one of us will convince the other and we will achieve TRUTH.

Naturally, I think that it will turn out to be me, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) but if we're both simply interested in establishing what is correct, then the debate can be fun instead of bitter. I'll come up with examples for you - materialisation better than possession, excluding the highest forces. Got it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

K.

Aren't most low level materialization spirits better than possession? A Force 1 possession spirit has 2 dice to possess something. Anything living will pretty much resist that outright or with an expenditure of Edge. So, if you don't have a prepared vessel of some sort within Magic x 100 meters there is essentially no point to even summon one. Half the time it won't even be able to possess dirt much less something with movable parts that would make it mobile. Now, compare that to a Materialization spirit, it has no problem Materializing and doing what you ask.

So, something basic, like activating a fire alarm to cause a diversion. A Force 1 Materialization spirit just appears and does it - no hassle, no luck involved. A Force 1 possession could *try* to possess the fire alarm... but that would probably mean overcoming a 4 object resistance which isn't going to happen otherwise it has to possess something else and that something has to be able to reach a fire alarm and the spirit has to overcome its object resistance.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Aren't most low level materialization spirits better than possession? A Force 1 possession spirit has 2 dice to possess something. Anything living will pretty much resist that outright or with an expenditure of Edge. So, if you don't have a prepared vessel of some sort within Magic x 100 meters there is essentially no point to even summon one. Half the time it won't even be able to possess dirt much less something with movable parts that would make it mobile. Now, compare that to a Materialization spirit, it has no problem Materializing and doing what you ask.

So, something basic, like activating a fire alarm to cause a diversion. A Force 1 Materialization spirit just appears and does it - no hassle, no luck involved. A Force 1 possession could *try* to possess the fire alarm... but that would probably mean overcoming a 4 object resistance which isn't going to happen otherwise it has to possess something else and that something has to be able to reach a fire alarm and the spirit has to overcome its object resistance.

When you use the example of activating a fire alarm, what do you mean? What are the circumstances that you can't just pull it yourself? And a possession mage should never be without a prepared vessel, something like a wooden ring, an ivory tooth, a quartz earring, or a silk hair braid, each of which would have an object resistance of 1, be relatively concealable, and viable as a prepared vessel, which would give it 8 dice to possess, not 2. You would then be able to have said spirit use any of its powers. No, it wouldn't be mobile and wouldn't be able to pull the fire alarm, you would need a force 3 spirit for that with psychokinesis as an optional power, but it would then have 3 hands and could pull 3 fire alarms from any distance, not just one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So yes, in a circumstance where you would need to pull a fire alarm with a spirit and wouldn't be able to summon a force 3 spirit to do it, a materialization spirit would be superior.

[crizh]

The simplest reading of the Possession and Vessels sidebar is that the values of the possessing spirit's mental and special attributes are used as the values of the mental and special attributes of the combined being that results.

While it is certainly possible to read 'the spirit's Mental and Special attributes are used' as meaning that the combined being actually doesn't have it's own Mental and Special attributes but the part of the Spirit that possesses those attributes remains separate from the combined being whilst still controlling it, that is only one possible meaning of those words and I put it to you that this is a stretch at best.

A combined being is a combined being. There is no Spirit and there is no vessel there is only the combined being. Whether or not a particular attribute is the spirit's, the vessel's or both combined doesn't matter. That is the value of that attribute the combined being uses for all purposes. When you introduce channelling and the combined being has two minds that both share control of the combined being they both use the same attributes for all purposes.

Unless you choose to interpret channelling as so obviously using the Magician's Mental and Special attributes for his own skill use that it doesn't need stating, then the Magician's skill use benefits from the combined being's attributes for all purposes.

There is no point repeating that the attributes used are the spirit's. Mechanically the spirit has ceased to exist, there is only the combined being.

You are placing way, way to specific a meaning onto the word 'used'. Without further clarification in the text that supports that interpretation you simply cannot exclude all the other possible meanings of the word to deny a character access to so fundamental an ability as Edge.