Possession Tradition Tactical Manual, for GMs as well as players Options

[Falconer]

Just a small critical historical point. Vehicle armor IS NOT hardened armor in SR4. (SR4a clarifies the wording slightly, but the effect is the same) It is EFFECTIVELY hardened armor because vehicles can't take stun damage. (any damage equal or less than rating is converted to stun and the vehicle is immune to stun damage). The book does not say the vehicle has hardened armor. (vehicle armor p167,

I think you're missing my point. There is functionally no difference between shooting a character behind a reinforced wall and an armored car door. They both add their armor ratings, however, things like APDS really shine here as it reduces both armor totals. (you'd reduce both the vehicle armor, and the characters armor by 4 points, for 8 points less armor if you shot APDS). This is also the reason APDS can be a huge overpenetration problem when you're trying to limit collateral damage.



Okay toxic zone...
Now... how does this not bone ANY MAGE. Materialization spirits STILL have it worse than possession spirits due to less dice and smaller attributes!


Edit: I've made my point... I don't want to hijack the thread, I'm not going to address this further here and reargue the same points raised in other threads... I've listed the what 7 8 9 point list of advantages which you haven't address, which are relevant to a possession guide.

[D2F]

Just a small critical historical point. Vehicle armor IS NOT hardened armor in SR4. (SR4a clarifies the wording slightly, but the effect is the same) It is EFFECTIVELY hardened armor because vehicles can't take stun damage. (any damage equal or less than rating is converted to stun and the vehicle is immune to stun damage). The book does not say the vehicle has hardened armor. (vehicle armor p167,

I think you're missing my point. There is functionally no difference between shooting a character behind a reinforced wall and an armored car door. They both add their armor ratings, however, things like APDS really shine here as it reduces both armor totals. (you'd reduce both the vehicle armor, and the characters armor by 4 points, for 8 points less armor if you shot APDS). This is also the reason APDS can be a huge overpenetration problem when you're trying to limit collateral damage.

It acts the exact same way as hardened armor as far as is relevant to the line of thought. Also, you may want to check "shooting through barriers" again:

Armor Penetra tion (AP)
A weapon’s Armor Penetration (AP) represents its penetrating ability— its ability to pierce armor. AP modifies a target’s Armor rating when he makes a damage resistance test.

and

Shooting Through Barr iers
If a character wants to shoot through a barrier to hit a target behind it, add the barrier’s Armor rating to whatever armor the target already possesses

Since the armor is added for the damage resistance test, you only subsract AP once, not twice. Unless you find a ruling that specifically says otherwise, of course,

Okay toxic zone...
Now... how does this not bone ANY MAGE. Materialization spirits STILL have it worse than possession spirits due to less dice and smaller attributes!

That was not your question. You asked how you could screw the possession mage without toasting the rest of the team. Unless the rest of your team are mages, your objection is unfounded.

Edit: I've made my point... I don't want to hijack the thread, I'm not going to address this further here and reargue the same points raised in other threads... I've listed the what 7 8 9 point list of advantages which you haven't address, which are relevant to a possession guide.

Alright then, let's drop it. I just didn't like how you tried to argue your own point as valid, when you have zero basis in the actual rules to back it up, yet you demanded specific rules sections to be quoted by others. I don't like hypocrisy very much.

[Falconer]

See p166. Shooting through barriers. Look at the example.

The modified armor is added to the resistance test, not the starting armor.

Every GM I've ever played with has treated people in vehicles this way. So I don't think this is going out on a limb.


Also the difference is very important. Even if you do exceed the armor rating if it's stun damage (from say gel).. it doesn't matter.

[knasser]

The FAQ is actively NOT maintained, and fails spectacularly at the primary purpose of a FAQ... to clarify (not change) rules. Anymore it is as often wrong as not. Muspellsheimr, myself, and others actively point this out. In many spots whoever wrote the FAQ entry clearly didn't read the clear simple wording of the rulebook. (or the rulebook changed after it was written, or they confuse prior editions).

Well you can't actively not do something, but that aside, you've not answered what I said, but something of your own invention. I didn't say that the FAQ was an errata as you've just said it isn't for the second time. I said that it didn't need to be an errata because the rules as written say exactly what I've said they do: The two entities merge and are considered a single dual natured entity and its attributes are new atttributes. For example, the spirit's mental attributes are used for the new entity. Or would you also argue that if a troll character were possessed by a Force 9 spirit, the resultant entity would not have a Logic of 9? If you were to argue that then you would plainly be contradicting the written rules which state that it does. If you don't argue it, then you accept that a merged entity can have attributes that do not conform to the vessel's x 1.5. And why should they? This is a new entity, not an augmentation of the original. This is made quite clear in the text. I don't know why you want to see this differently. And that you say the official FAQ "fails spectacularly" seems an ad hominem of sorts. I don't think the FAQ "fails spectacularly" and it's the developers' own clarifications. You seem to have a pre-set conclusion and are determined to prove it even when the text says otherwise and the clarifications from the developers say otherwise. Possession is not augmenting anyone's attributes. It creates a new entity. We even have cannon examples of this: In Ghost Cartels, we have a human character who has all Physical attributes at 3 normally, possessed by a Force 8 spirit and the printed stats for the possessed version give 11 for the resulting entity. (Ghost Cartels, pages 122-123). There is another example in a different chapter where a human woman with stats of Bod 4, Agi 3, Rea 4 and Str 3, is replaced with a possessed version having Bod 4(12), Agi 3(11), Rea 4(12), Str 3(11).

So basically you are ignoring the actual text, the clarifications from the developers and published examples on the basis of comments like the following:

Digital grimoire shows similar effects. He summons a guardian spirit with 'short arms' skill?! What exactly is short arms skill? It seems the author is still half-confused w/ the SR3 rules (where the skill is SMG's).

You find a mistake in one place and therefore throw out other parts that disagree with your desired conclusions. Please face facts - the rules aren't what you're saying they are and you have no basis for telling people otherwise. By all means house rule if you like, but if you're going around telling people incorrect information, that's wrong. Especially when you have the presumption to tell them to set your interpretations above those of the people who actually wrote the rules and in contradiction to published examples.

I challenge you to point out where in *SR4* it says that ItNW is cumulative. It is nowhere stated anywhere. Hardened armor uses a completely different mechanic than normal armor and is considered a seperate non-stacking armor total and nowhere not once is it stated the power is cumulative. (see below) I believe this perception comes from prior editions where armor was handled differently.

This is a specious argument as I'm sure you must know. One cannot simply make something up and then challenge people to find a statement that contradicts it. I might as well say: "People called Henry get +4 dice pool - show me where it says they didn't." I can't and you can't and nor can anyone else. So instead we look at seeing if there is any reason to think that people called Henry should get +4 dice pool. In that case, there is none. In the case of Immunity to Normal Weapons, the basis of your argument is that "Hardened Armour doesn't explicitly state that it doesn't". That's hardly a powerful case. It grants armour, all other cases stack, including mystical ones such as Armour spells and Mystic Armour. Published examples of beings with natural armour or worn armour and ItNW all have the armour stacking. Basically I'm just going to turn this around and point out that all the natural conclusions based on the rules are that ItNW does stack and tell you to show us where it says it doesn't. That seems a great deal more sensible to me. Unless you're going to start dismissing published examples again.

Also, ritual materials yes are hard to buy in your example, but they're actually very easy to refine and create using enchanting and collection rules. If you're out in the wilderness you're in prime terrain to collect raw materials for them as well. So even that is quickly covered up w/ just some minor investment in freebie knowledge skills, enchanting, and some reasonably priced magical tools.

I'm not sure what your point is - you said that it was: "After this point... you start to run into a real problem as a GM... how do you challenge the possession player? Anything you can do which can realistically challenge him... will fry any other party member."

I provided a fairly long list of ways one could do so as a GM, of which the comparative scarcity of decent binding materials compared to bullets was one. To leap in and say that a suggested possible way of challenging a possession mage is flawed because it's not always possible begins to seem like you just want to try and shoot down things I say. Aside from that, have you actually read the reagent rules? There are many scenarios where the team is not going to want to stop so that someone can make Survival + Intuition (8,1 hour) tests to locate reagents for each point of raw reagent, followed by the Enchanting + Magic (number of reagents, 1 day) test to turn them into Refined reagents, followed by the Enchanting + Magic (Force of materials, 1 day) test to turn the refined reagents into Binding Materials. And don't neglect that you have hand-waved a couple of extra skill dependencies into the possession mage in order to demonstrate how one single example of how a GM can add challenge to a possession mage is sometimes not always viable. This really does start to sound like you just want to argue rather than accept that a possession mage can be challenged without "frying any other party member".

EDIT: Hit the maximum quote limit again...

[knasser]

continued...

The final point is a rundown of why a lot of people feel that possession is badly balanced compared to materialization.
Okay possess the guard exactly the same as materialization if you take the books suggestions... okay

I'm not sure what the point of the long numerical list following this. It seems to be arguing that possessing an enemy is often better than using a materialised spirit and that this is held up as a counter to something I said. I'll repeat my point: I said using possession spirits to possess and take out grunts is seldom worthwhile and I compared it to a magician taking people out with stunbolts. So first off, setting it up in comparison to materialised spirits doesn't address what I was saying at all. Secondly, I was explicit in stating that it wasn't often worthwhile unless you were dealing with more powerful enemies, not typical security guards. I said paying force x 500¥ / number of services to deal with grunts wasn't a good deal in comparison to a samurai's bullets and that summoning non-bound possession spirits at sufficient force to do this reliably on the fly was inefficient in comparison to just getting a couple of action phases of Stun Bolt in (or better, Stun Ball which at Force 6 has the same drain as the typical result of a Force 4 spirit summoning without the unpredictable risk of the spirit rolling high). So basically, the long comparison of Possession's advantages in this scenario over Materialisation aren't really germaine. If you really need to take control of an enemy grunt you can do it more quickly with Control Thoughts than with on the fly possession spirits - and the victim wont have glowing eyes and an energy aura to give him away, either! The point is that this all suggests this Possession tactic isn't actually that worthwhile against grunts, which is what I said. Save it for going against the cybered up troll family or something.

That point made, there are still a couple of issues with what you said anyway.

1. you've just taken out a guard in the act of possessing... (and 2x force vs. standard mental attributes isn't even a challenge). A materialization spirit on the other hand takes a round to materialize and hasn't even attacked anything yet in the presence of coming to the physical. (it attacks much faster, and MUCH more effectively!)

It's true that the Possession spirit starts "attacking" directly from the Astral. It's six of one and half-a-dozen of the other though. For one, it might fail completely whereas the Materialisation's failures will be partial. Even if its attacks aren't doing much damage, it's at least drawing fire, in melee with your enemies, etc. Basically, it depends on the circumstances. Want something to cover your retreat as you flee? Materialisation wins. Want to take down a lone guard before he can send an alarm? Possession might be the best. "MUCH more effectively" isn't supportable. The answer is: it depends.

Regarding "2x Force vs. standard mental attributes isn't even a challenge", this is arguing a general case from presumed specifics. If the average grunt has a Willpower and Intuition of 3, then you need a Force 4+ spirit for the odds to be in your favour. I basically reject you handwaving the availability of Force 4's summoned on the fly the whole time. There's a good chance you'll get drain doing this on a run, something the samurai or the adept doesn't have to worry about. And even at Force 4, the odds are hardly "isn't even a challenge". The odds of successful possession are actually only just over 53%. Boost yourself to a Force 5, and the odds become 70% in favour. That's a really bad cost to benefit ratio.

3a. on top of this... IF the FAQ is followed (and contravenes the reprinted SR4a). Those new limits aren't even subject to augmented maxes... this only gets worse.

This has been addressed. And given all the disadvantages of Possession, they'd better get some breaks. If you're limited to only using available victims to get your spirits into combat rather than Materialisation spirits appearing wherever and whenever, they'd better come with some bonuses to balance them. (Incidentally, while I'm on the subject of the availability of vessels - "drone opposition." That's all I'm sayin'

4. Further insult to injury is when you claim now on top of a guard w/ reasonable equipment/armor etc... it now has hardened quality

I never said that. ItNW stacks with armour. The hardened quality only adds up to its normal limits. This is pretty clear. So someone with Ballistic Armour rating of 6 who suddenly gets possessed by a Force 3 spirit, now has Ballistic Armour 12 against mundane weaponry, and hardened armour of 6. So attacks need to beat the 6, and soaks against any that get through are rolled against with 12 (adjusted for AP).

AND even further armor to resist mundane damage. (again minimum 4x force of spirit... +1rea, +1bod, +2ItNW)... you start to see where things get a bit you of whack, force 6 spirit means at minimum +24 dice of damage resistance!!!

This is slightly out. It's not +24 dice to resist damage. It's some extra to avoid getting struck, some as armour or body). The system has boundary conditions meaning the average results of separate tests can't simply be added together, especially when all these tests are subject to different modifiers. But yes, it's a big help in not dying. It's a Force 6 spirit. There's nothing wrong with it being a monster. It's supposed to be. You've either paid 3,000¥ for it (the cost of 66 grenades or four high explose rockets), or you've taken a big old risk in summoning it during run time. If you're the sort of magician who uses Force 6 casually, then you're the sort of magician who should be facing very dangerous opposition.

which more than doubles the number of dice that most street sams are rolling... even heavily armored trolls rarely have that much to start, and that's not starting, that's, ADDITIONAL.

Yep. But the samurai is keeping her abilities all day long, fight after fight, with minimal cost, no occasional bad drain rolls, and without requiring notice and without being subject to all sorts of magical restrictions such as Mana Barriers, wards, background counts and aspected domains, sniping from astral attackers. Magic in Shadowrun has always been great gains at significant cost / risk. Basically, I'm fine with what you see as a problem. I've had to deal with a cybered up troll in an otherwise non min-maxed party. I can deal with a part-time version.

6. Possessed military armor allows for such wonkery as increased strength (beyond augmented limits), mobility upgrade (non-encumbering), and armor upgrade.... of course getting past that OR5 is a big hurdle!

I don't know where you get the idea that having your armour possessed does anything to increase the Strength of the person wearing it. Digital Grimoire even explcitly states problems with doing such things.

8. Even channeling... a force 4 or 5 is almost always going to match or exceed attributes. And by the time you raise those higher, you should be able to summon higher force spirits.

I'm not sure of your point here.

To other posters....

I don't like this. You're implying that you wont deign to address to me or that I'm not worth addressing. Pretty rude and offensive and then going on to tell them to ignore what I've been saying. I think people can make their own minds up, you'll find.

[pbangarth]

I can't do it now, or for a while, as I am really supposed to be doing some heavy writing in RL, but sooner or later I think I will put the helpful hints and warnings into a list in the first post, giving the date for the latest edit, so that those who are seeking guidance can find it without wading through the acrimony that I fear may build up here as in other threads.

Thank you one and all for the helpful hints, and keep them coming!

[knasser]

I can't do it now, or for a while, as I am really supposed to be doing some heavy writing in RL, but sooner or later I think I will put the helpful hints and warnings into a list in the first post, giving the date for the latest edit, so that those who are seeking guidance can find it without wading through the acrimony that I fear may build up here as in other threads.

Thank you one and all for the helpful hints, and keep them coming!

Would you be willing for me to host a version of it on my site as a PDF, with a creditation to you? It would remain current that way as my site gets a lot of traffic and it would always be visible, rather than sliding down the forums.

K.

[pbangarth]

Sure! Thanks. But it will be a while, yet. I am trying to finish my doctoral dissertation, and hope to have the revised draft done this week and sent off to my supervisor. After it is done, I will have more time to futz with postings etc. God, maybe even play a game!

[Mordinvan]

I don't know where you get the idea that having your armour possessed does anything to increase the Strength of the person wearing it. Digital Grimoire even explcitly states problems with doing such things.

Except the digital grimoires take on how possession affects armor is somewhat backwards. Lets say I have a spirit possess the trauma plates in my armored vest. The plates themselves are rigid already, and their resistance to being flexed, bent, or broken can not in realistic terms impair my mobility any more then they already do regardless of how hard they become.

[Mordinvan]

I always wanted to have a possession mage by a drone like a steel lynx, and gut most of the expensive electronics from it. Sensors, wireless, and all the stuff the spirit couldn't use anyway. Then prepare and possess it with a moderate force guardian spirit. You will have a) lowered the OR of the drone by gutting its overly complicated components, and rendered it unhackable, and you can still remotely operate it by leaving a set of physcial switches inside the drone the possession spirit can manipulate to allow it to drive the drone through wards if it needs to.

[pbangarth]

Except the digital grimoires take on how possession affects armor is somewhat backwards. Lets say I have a spirit possess the trauma plates in my armored vest. The plates themselves are rigid already, and their resistance to being flexed, bent, or broken can not in realistic terms impair my mobility any more then they already do regardless of how hard they become.

But,what if the possessing spirit, by increasing the armor value and barrier rating of the device (however it might do that), makes it heavier?

[pbangarth]

I always wanted to have a possession mage by a drone like a steel lynx, and gut most of the expensive electronics from it. Sensors, wireless, and all the stuff the spirit couldn't use anyway. Then prepare and possess it with a moderate force guardian spirit. You will have a) lowered the OR of the drone by gutting its overly complicated components, and rendered it unhackable, and you can still remotely operate it by leaving a set of physcial switches inside the drone the possession spirit can manipulate to allow it to drive the drone through wards if it needs to.

This sounds cool.

[Mordinvan]

Or one could by a medical clone of a troll, have it cybered up to drop its essence and make enchanting it easier. Then just hook it up to life support, and take it out of storage whenever you need to do a run, call a force 4+ spirit in the morning to possess it, and have it play tag along.

[Whipstitch]

It's not really a drone in that case though, it's a dual-natured being as opposed to being just an inanimate processed object. That's one of the first things I always point out when people bring up things like military strike forces built up entirely of possessed main battle tanks. It's technically possible and has some advantages to it in theory, but in practice you're often just adding a bit of immunity to normal weapons to something that was already highly armored to begin with while making it vulnerable to attacks from the astral. That's rather problematic when you consider that mana bolt doesn't really give a crap how much armor you have, so it's not really that great of a trade regardless of whether or not the GM lets you keep its Object Resistance. After all, a tricked out Steel Lynx is already pretty nasty to begin with and can definitely school your average security guard with or without Spirit assistance. I guess it would be wireless hack proof though, which is nice, but I actually think the Drones 'n' Spirits combined arms approach is an area that favors Materialization over Possession.

Which, really, brings me back to perhaps my favorite gaming moment. When the Big Bad shapeshifter villain of the campaign had his uber-spirit possess him in a last ditch effort to wipe out the team. I said "Oh, hey, a twofer!" and used my Edge to Mana Bolt him from hell to breakfast.

[Mordinvan]

It's not really a drone in that case though, it's a dual-natured being as opposed to being just an inanimate processed object. That's one of the first things I always point out when people bring up things like military strike forces built up entirely of possessed main battle tanks. It's technically possible and has some advantages to it in theory, but in practice you're often just adding a bit of immunity to normal weapons to something that was already highly armored to begin with while making it vulnerable to attacks from the astral. That's rather problematic when you consider that mana bolt doesn't really give a crap how much armor you have, so it's not really that great of a trade regardless of whether or not the GM lets you keep its Object Resistance. After all, a tricked out Steel Lynx is already pretty nasty to begin with and can definitely school your average security guard with or without Spirit assistance. I guess it would be wireless hack proof though, which is nice, but I actually think the Drones 'n' Spirits combined arms approach is an area that favors Materialization over Possession.

Which, really, brings me back to perhaps my favorite gaming moment. When the Big Bad shapeshifter villain of the campaign had his uber-spirit possess him in a last ditch effort to wipe out the team. I said "Oh, hey, a twofer!" and used my Edge to Mana Bolt him from hell to breakfast.

I didn't say it would be immune to magic, but if you have the spirit posses a control housing inside the steel lynx, it would be. Basically have arcade joysticks the spirit possesses, and have it ride around in the lynx. Or you can have it possess the lynx itself. This would work well if the opposition you're expected does not have a lot of magical support.

I have to say, I still like my troll idea.

[Saint Sithney]

I see, so pointing out what the rules say is supposed to happen is having a tantrum. I'm going to keep this civil and suggest you do the same, because otherwise bull will make his rounds and neither of us will like it.

What I'm talking about is not Rules™ or some "evil genie perverts your wishes" nonsense here, but rather suggested aesthetics for role playing, meant to demonstratively and emphatically remind everyone at the table that the mage is possessed. As in Linda Blair there is something else inside of me controlling my body possessed. As in cursing, spitting, lewd, crude Papa Ghede is now riding that hungan. Everyone at the table should be painfully aware that Mr. Wizbang ain't here no more and a fully conscious alien entity is staring out of his eyes. And yes I misspoke when I was talking about services to stop actions, but I clarified that. I was not attempting to make a "Rules Reading" here but to instead suggest how one would play and interpret a possessed character, again, from a role playing perspective. You may not put authenticity in role playing high on your list of priorities, so, if this advice doesn't really concern how you game, feel free to ignore it.

Oh, and fyi, saying that you would attempt to ruin a game and then flounce because you were asked to talk through proxy during brief periods of full body possession is terribly childish, and reiterating as much isn't civility.

[toturi]

What I'm talking about is not Rules™ or some "evil genie perverts your wishes" nonsense here, but rather suggested aesthetics for role playing, meant to demonstratively and emphatically remind everyone at the table that the mage is possessed. As in Linda Blair there is something else inside of me controlling my body possessed. As in cursing, spitting, lewd, crude Papa Ghede is now riding that hungan. Everyone at the table should be painfully aware that Mr. Wizbang ain't here no more and a fully conscious alien entity is staring out of his eyes. And yes I misspoke when I was talking about services to stop actions, but I clarified that. I was not attempting to make a "Rules Reading" here but to instead suggest how one would play and interpret a possessed character, again, from a role playing perspective. You may not put authenticity in role playing high on your list of priorities, so, if this advice doesn't really concern how you game, feel free to ignore it.

Oh, and fyi, saying that you would attempt to ruin a game and then flounce because you were asked to talk through proxy during brief periods of full body possession is terribly childish, and reiterating as much isn't civility.

Actually I got the idea that you were suggesting that the GM forcibly play the spirit in a manner that was deliberately different to what the player intends under the guise of roleplaying. Which I think was the same as what Mordinvan thought you were saying.

If your suggested roleplaying of the spirit did not entail additional mechanical disincentives, then I am sure that there would be no reason to attempt to ruin the game. However, if the GM were to house rule in such a way as to curb a player's fun, then it is the GM that is being childish and reiterating as much that a player would likely reciprocate in like manner is more civil than I would probably be.

[Saint Sithney]

Yeah, I was posting in a hurry and was very unclear. I totally understand how he could have come away with that impression.

That's never been my intention in a game. Still, allowing a player full control over his possessed character in the form of role playing the spirit directly doesn't seem right to me when there is potential still for "angry spirits" to resist the mage because he's dominating play to the detriment of others, er, I mean "being abusive towards spirits." As such, I like the proxy approach to make abuse less appealing.

[Mordinvan]

What I'm talking about is not Rules™ or some "evil genie perverts your wishes" nonsense here, but rather suggested aesthetics for role playing, meant to demonstratively and emphatically remind everyone at the table that the mage is possessed.

And how that comes off will be based on the tradition of the character, and the relationship that tradition says the character has with their spirits. If I belong to a tradition in which spirits are nothing more then mana constructs, and slaves to my will, it can't do anything I don't want it to. It 'may' attach prefixes to all phrases, such as 'master says', or 'My summoner feels' but aside from that the message will transmitted as faithfully as the spirit can, and considering the link, that should be pretty well. It may well be completely devoid of emotion when it issues from your mouth, but the intent will be present.

As in Linda Blair there is something else inside of me controlling my body possessed. As in cursing, spitting, lewd, crude Papa Ghede is now riding that hungan. Everyone at the table should be painfully aware that Mr. Wizbang ain't here no more and a fully conscious alien entity is staring out of his eyes.

This again all comes down to tradition. If the tradition says they are either shaped by your own personality, or fragments there of, it would not be beyond reason that depending on your mood they may be nearly indistinguishable from your actual character. Their apparent mood 'may' not be appropriate to the situation at the time which could be creepy, like a manic spirit howling in laughter in the middle of a fight, or a contemplative spirit calmly observing a grenade rolling in its direction, cause its already 'calculated' the thing won't get close enough to cause injury.

And yes I misspoke when I was talking about services to stop actions, but I clarified that. I was not attempting to make a "Rules Reading" here but to instead suggest how one would play and interpret a possessed character, again, from a role playing perspective. You may not put authenticity in role playing high on your list of priorities, so, if this advice doesn't really concern how you game, feel free to ignore it.

Even if I do, I'm MORE then capable of playing such roles on my own thanks, and having a GM telling ME that I'm going out of my way to piss of the corn flakes of someone I have no intention of picking a fight with in direct contradiction of the rules for being a possession tradition mage is going to see me make my POINT abundantly clear.

Oh, and fyi, saying that you would attempt to ruin a game and then flounce because you were asked to talk through proxy during brief periods of full body possession is terribly childish, and reiterating as much isn't civility.

To say that I am going to walk up to a ganger and trash talk him, and pick a fight when I have no intention of doing so is MORE then grounds for me to mess with you in return. Having some spirit I have not otherwise pissed off intentionally twisting my words and intentions to make my life hell is full and complete justification for me to show you in return what it is like for someone to twist your intents and ruin your fun right back at you.

[Mordinvan]

Yeah, I was posting in a hurry and was very unclear. I totally understand how he could have come away with that impression.

That's never been my intention in a game. Still, allowing a player full control over his possessed character in the form of role playing the spirit directly doesn't seem right to me when there is potential still for "angry spirits" to resist the mage because he's dominating play to the detriment of others, er, I mean "being abusive towards spirits." As such, I like the proxy approach to make abuse less appealing.

Wow, so how about you take how the player us actually supposed to interact with the spirits of their tradition into account, instead of tossing in your own houserules and fiates all the time? Unless by THAT tradition I'm somehow pissing off the spirits, then as a gm you should NOT be interfering with my interactions with them. If I grant the whatever forms of offerings, control, respect, or demands my tradition suggest, it shouldn't matter if I use them with surgical effectiveness. Not unless you're ready to have a sammy's gun jam just because he has enough dice in it to mow down a small army in 1 pass, or is in a decent ambush position. As a player it is my JOB to use the tools I have to the best of my ability to overcome the challenges of the game, and if I'm better at overcoming challenges then you are at making them hijacking my character to cripple me IS going to result in sub orbitals 'landing' in downtown Seattle.

[Warlordtheft]

And everything is great until some yahoo Wagemage banishes the spirit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mordinvan]

And everything is great until some yahoo Wagemage banishes the spirit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Or stun bolts it.

Spirits are not the end all, be all, but they are useful tools.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

To say that I am going to walk up to a ganger and trash talk him, and pick a fight when I have no intention of doing so is MORE then grounds for me to mess with you in return. Having some spirit I have not otherwise pissed off intentionally twisting my words and intentions to make my life hell is full and complete justification for me to show you in return what it is like for someone to twist your intents and ruin your fun right back at you.

I believe what he intended in his original post was not that the spirit would force you into conflicts, but that you should choose to enter conflicts via provocation rather than directly telling your spirit to attack a group you need attacked, because provoking the gangers to attack you would cause the spirit to be forced to defend itself, something that wouldn't require a service. I don't believe it was his intention to imply that a spirit should be allowed to act outside the orders given to it by its summoner, after all, clarification of the manner in which a spirit should fulfill a service shouldn't require a service.

[knasser]

Or one could by a medical clone of a troll, have it cybered up to drop its essence and make enchanting it easier. Then just hook it up to life support, and take it out of storage whenever you need to do a run, call a force 4+ spirit in the morning to possess it, and have it play tag along.

Now that's nice if you have the money - a genetically clean clone with no messy history and any implants you want. Of course poor Houngans have to make do with abducting trolls off the street. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

With this approach, Inhabitation is actually more useful than possession, I'd say, assuming you can pull it off somehow. Which reminds me, something that I don't think has been raised so far which is a definite good tactic for possession mages is: Ally Spirits. Having an ally spirit be the one that possesses you gets rid of many of the disadvantages we've been discussing. Of course you have to be nice to it, but until it starts getting more powerful than you are and wondering why it should listen to you instead of the other way around, you have a spirit that wont run out of services and is unlikely to turn on you. Downside is the cost. If you want a Force 5 Ally spirit, that's 40 karma. In fact, I take it back - that's very cheap for what you get. Some people think Possession is overpowered. It isn't. But throw in an Ally spirit, and now we've got a scary mage.

My advice to GM's. If you see a magician character hording karma for more than a few sessions, kill them - they're up to no good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

K.

[knasser]

I believe what he intended in his original post was not that the spirit would force you into conflicts, but that you should choose to enter conflicts via provocation rather than directly telling your spirit to attack a group you need attacked, because provoking the gangers to attack you would cause the spirit to be forced to defend itself, something that wouldn't require a service. I don't believe it was his intention to imply that a spirit should be allowed to act outside the orders given to it by its summoner, after all, clarification of the manner in which a spirit should fulfill a service shouldn't require a service.

That's a really clever idea. I'd let that fly under the right circumstances. Of course, a medium force spirit isn't stupid. If you tell it to go up and hassle gangers, it knows you're asking it to start a fight (assuming the gangers don't run for their lives from the glowing-eyed, flame-aura'd freak). It would count that as a service. But if you're team-mates were in on the gag and started the fight on your behalf, perhaps you'd get away with it. It would depend on the spirit in my game. If it were a violent sort that wasn't antagonistic to you, then it probably would slap down an attacking ganger without charge. If it weren't that sort of spirit, it might well just wander off to get away from the conflict it wasn't interested in, in which case your back to making demands. Of course this sort of reliance on the spirit's own choices can work both ways. Say some people start hassling you and you don't want the Beast spirit that's possessing you to bite their throats out. Now you've got the opposite problem. Basically, I say all this is good - it's more interesting and it allows players to use their role-playing cleverness to get ahead whilst at the same time offering me as GM the implicit agreement that they're willing to accept spirits as actual people. Exactly what I want.

This again all comes down to tradition. If the tradition says they are either shaped by your own personality, or fragments there of, it would not be beyond reason that depending on your mood they may be nearly indistinguishable from your actual character.

Heh! Says the mage's player. But the GM just says: "Beware the monsters from the Id", and smiles cryptically.

In other words, the more powerful the thought-form you create from your own mind, the more refined your skill in drawing only those aspects of you that you want to, must be. Example, a Chaos magician who has a penchent for abusing those weaker than himself summons a powerful spirit. Much is his dismay when the spirit casually lashes out at some innocent as they pass without any instruction from him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Just in case people take the above and think I'm out to punish possession mages, that's not in fact the case. Firstly, I apply interesting personalities to Materialisation spirits just the same. Secondly, I try to be as generous as I can be cruel and to make players aware of how things work in advance. So for example, we had a Beast spirit summoned to take out some guards. It was high enough force that I considered it to have a fair amount of personality. It revelled in the fight, enjoying this world of new smells and tastes and prey so much that it not only spent Edge in the fight to do better, but continued to rampage around the compound wreaking havoc. Now if the players wanted to be stealthy, that's a downside, but as they wanted to make a mess, it was great. The point is that players get a feel for what spirits are like and can roll with this. I don't carry this too far, but my aim in a game is excitement and involvement, and you're short-changing yourself imo if spirits don't have some character.

K.