Bio Adept, the Joy of Type O Options

[Nifft]

In another thread, someone mentioned how cheap Synaptic Boosters (bioware) are compared to Improved Reflexes (adept power): for 1.0 essence, you can get +2 Reaction and +2 IPs. With deltaware, you could get +3 Reaction and +3 IPs for a mere 0.75 essence: but deltaware is expensive, and you can't have any at character creation (even if you could afford it).

The quality Type O System seems to be a way around that restriction: it means that, for you, standard-grade bioware is the equivalent of deltaware when calculating essence cost. However, it's a 30 point quality, so you get that + Adept and you're done for positive qualities.

Synaptic Boosters (2), even at standard grade, are not cheap: 160,000 ¥ = 32 of your BP, and most of your gear allocation. Together with Type O System, that's 62 BP.

Assuming Adept with Magic 5 (4) = 45 BP, that leaves you with 200 BP for abilities, and 93 BP for everything else.

1/ How would you allocate those 4 remaining points of magic?

2/ What's the best use for the rest of that point of essence? I'm thinking 0.5 worth of cyberware, since eventually we'll want the Synaptic Boosters (3) = 0.75, so going over 0.5 in cyber would cost us another whole point eventually. On the other hand, if we skip cyber entirely and stick to bioware, we could stuff in the same 0.5 worth of standard-grade, thanks to our discount. 0.5 worth of standard-grade is pretty sweet: we could get five Skin Pockets! (...or Platelet Factories + Pain Editor.) Still, 0.5 worth of cyber is pretty sweet too, if we can expect to be able to get some use out of a Nanohive or six.

3/ It feels kinda wrong to be spending so many BPs on a single trick. However, it seems like a really good trick.

Thoughts?
Thanks, -- N

[The Jopp]

Synaptic Boosters are already Cultured Bioware and gain no benefit from Type O System.

[Nifft]

Synaptic Boosters are already Cultured Bioware and gain no benefit from Type O System.

D'oh! Then the spreadsheet I'm using did that bit wrong.

Thanks, -- N

[Cheshyr]

D'oh! Then the spreadsheet I'm using did that bit wrong.

Thanks, -- N

I made the same mistake. It's a quick way to ruin a character concept. If Type O applied to all bioware, it's be worth 30 points. As written though, it's not nearly as valuable. Might still be worth it, but it'd have to be case specific, not generally superior.

[Nifft]

I made the same mistake. It's a quick way to ruin a character concept. If Type O applied to all bioware, it's be worth 30 points. As written though, it's not nearly as valuable. Might still be worth it, but it'd have to be case specific, not generally superior.

Yeah.

I think the base concept still works -- Synaptic Booster (2) in a Physical Adept -- but you don't have 0.5 essence left to play with, and you won't get SB(3) until you can afford it as Deltaware. You're still saving 1.5 points worth of Magic which you can put to some other use.

Going with that, the concept opens up a lot more. Those 30 points really hurt! And if we can't start with cyber, then taking Sensitive System is a gimmie, for another +15 BP.

[The Dragon Girl]

you don't get .5 essence to play with anyhow, partial essence loss of a point takes away the entire point for magic, iirc.

[Bobfly]

I'm sorry, I can't work it out. Can someone please explain to me (and refer to official word) why the type-O quality wouldn't work with cultured bioware? I seem to have previously read there was no reason it wouldn't. So, why? Just because you can't get cultured bioware "off the rack"? Or are you somehow of the opinion that cultured bioware can't be delta-grade? The way I read the rules, the 'cultured' tag doesn't affect the implant as much as it did in 3rd ed, for instance, it just means that it can't be transplanted from person to person, and that it's a bit more difficult/time-consuming to acquire.

[Stahlseele]

People are of the opinion that as cultured bioware needs to be cloned from your very own tissue anyways and does more or less equate delta anyway, there is no difference and it does not gain anything by fitting you any better, because it allready has to be the best fit possible due to being cultured . .

[Cheshyr]

The wording of the Type O quality states it only applies to Standard Bioware, not Cultured.

If you're less bound by RAW, then the fluff gives other rationalizations. Certain bioware is so drastic that your body will reject it unless certain parts of it are matched to your body. It's the same reason people wait months or years for organ transplants; it needs to match their body. Standard Bioware isn't drastic enough that your body is prone to rejecting it.

That's my interpretation anyway.

[Tsithlis]

From Aug P. 20

Though exceptionally rare, a few people in the world have completely non-allergenic "type O" cells, meaning that they can give organ transplants to just about anyone with little chance of rejection. While the character cannot accept secondhand bioware at all, their essential cell line is already cultivated as the generic standard throughout the world. Off the rack, basic bioware is considered delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body (i.e., reduce essence costs by half, though nuyen prices remain the same), Their bodies are also filled with universally transplantable organs, so maybe they shouldn't brag to much about this talent.

From the way it sound when it says "basic bioware", and there is an actual "basic bioware" section in the book I think it would be limited to only the things listed in that section. But if you think about it that would still allow you to get Bone Density 4 (+4 body), Muscle Aug 4 (+4 strength), Muscle Toner 4 (+4 agility), Orthoskin 3 (+3 Armor), Suprathyroid Gland, Symbiotes 3 (+3 healing) all of this is cheaper in bioware with Type O than you would pay in magic as an adept. Essentially making a super BIO adept without having to pay so much Karma, saving the Karma for magic that you want to spend on adept power that you can't get with bioware.

[TallMan]

You could also grab Biocompatibilty (bioware), which knocks 10% off Essence costs for all bioware. It means you can get a rating 3 synaptic accelerator for under 1 essence if you can afford betaware, rather than deltaware, and your initial synaptic accelerator 2 will come in at .9 essence, giving you a little wiggle room.

[Tsithlis]

And biocompatibility also leaves some extra +Quality points left over for cool things like restricted gear for that level 4 weapon Foci!

[Nifft]

you don't get .5 essence to play with anyhow, partial essence loss of a point takes away the entire point for magic, iirc.

... when you've spent 0.5 Essence, and you are at 5.5 Essence, (and -1 Magic), what do you have?

Answer: a spare 0.5 Essence, which you can spend without further penalty.

You could also grab Biocompatibilty (bioware), which knocks 10% off Essence costs for all bioware. It means you can get a rating 3 synaptic accelerator for under 1 essence if you can afford betaware, rather than deltaware, and your initial synaptic accelerator 2 will come in at .9 essence, giving you a little wiggle room.

That is a good thought.

Cheers, -- N

[The Dragon Girl]

... when you've spent 0.5 Essence, and you are at 5.5 Essence, (and -1 Magic), what do you have?

Answer: a spare 0.5 Essence, which you can spend without further penalty.

That is a good thought.

Cheers, -- N

Ah, Pardon, I misread what you were saying about having another half point to work with (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I ended up going with a datajack, the synthocarium(sp?) the balance augmenter, and the retinal and fingerprint mimicking nanoware systems with the point of essence I devoted to such things, myself.

[Nifft]

Ah, Pardon, I misread what you were saying about having another half point to work with (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I ended up going with a datajack, the synthocarium(sp?) the balance augmenter, and the retinal and fingerprint mimicking nanoware systems with the point of essence I devoted to such things, myself.

Nanoware is cool.

Ever since reading about it, I keep thinking how to sneak a couple of nanohives into every character I come up with...

[Dumori]

I'm almost certain that basic biowear in the type-o is for basic grade not anything other. Though this is as old and aurg so its a GM ruling unless thees a FAQ for dev post on it.

[Muspellsheimr]

People are of the opinion that as cultured bioware needs to be cloned from your very own tissue anyways and does more or less equate delta anyway, there is no difference and it does not gain anything by fitting you any better, because it allready has to be the best fit possible due to being cultured . .

Incorrect. Cultured Bioware is tailored to an individuals nervous system or brain structure. It is still grown from Type-O tissue, & follows the standard Grade rules of other augmentations.

The wording of the Type O quality states it only applies to Standard Bioware, not Cultured.

Incorrect. The wording of the quality states it applies to Basic Bioware, not Cultured. Standard is a grade, not a type.

If you're less bound by RAW, then the fluff gives other rationalizations. Certain bioware is so drastic that your body will reject it unless certain parts of it are matched to your body. It's the same reason people wait months or years for organ transplants; it needs to match their body. Standard Bioware isn't drastic enough that your body is prone to rejecting it.

Incorrect. Fluff clearly indicates Type-O System should apply to all bioware, not just Basic. Quite the opposite of what you claim.

I'm almost certain that basic biowear in the type-o is for basic grade not anything other. Though this is as old and aurg so its a GM ruling unless thees a FAQ for dev post on it.

Basic bioware is a class of bioware, not a grade. Standard is the grade. The quality, as written, applies only to Basic 'ware, not Cultured. This is, of course, something that has been House Ruled.

[Dumori]

Its RAW vs RAI. But ive forgotten what RAI was.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Its RAW vs RAI. But ive forgotten what RAI was.

Rules as Intended...

Keep the Faith

[Dumori]

I mean I've forgoten what the RAI for this was, not what RAI stands for. Damn ambiguous statements.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I mean I've forgoten what the RAI for this was, not what RAI stands for. Damn ambiguous statements.

Indeed...

Keep the Faith

[Whipstitch]

Incorrect. Fluff clearly indicates Type-O System should apply to all bioware, not just Basic.

I don't agree with this at all. Typo-O says that your cell lines are the standard and Cultured says that the bioware is tailored to the individual without giving any more specifics on how that is accomplished, which implies that tailoring could include all manner of techniques. With Basic bioware, Typo O means you get Delta because basic bioware is apparently simple enough that rejection issues are the big hurdle that really hurts essence. Otherwise, muscle fibers are apparently muscle fibers and denser bones are denser bones. Meanwhile, Cultured 'ware is all stuff that deals directly with the brain and rejiggering the central nervous system as opposed to just feeding it new information. Such cells are notoriously plastic. Having these cells be from the same line in order to communicate properly at all is apparently either a bare minimum requirement or such a secondary concern to the other implantation concerns that being Type O is neither here nor there. This leaves implanting new neurons and cells that are already as close to being "in the loop" as possible as the primary way to reduce essence loss. The less your old cells have to change or be supplanted by in order to accommodate the addition of tailored cells, the less essence you lose due to being closer to your original holistic template. After all, tinkering with the CNS is a lot more involved than say, a skin graft. As far as fictional pseudo-science goes, it sounds legit enough to me to accept at face value for the purposes of running a sci-fi RPG.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Incorrect. Cultured Bioware is tailored to an individuals nervous system or brain structure. It is still grown from Type-O tissue, & follows the standard Grade rules of other augmentations.


Incorrect. The wording of the quality states it applies to Basic Bioware, not Cultured. Standard is a grade, not a type.

Incorrect. Fluff clearly indicates Type-O System should apply to all bioware, not just Basic. Quite the opposite of what you claim.


Basic bioware is a class of bioware, not a grade. Standard is the grade. The quality, as written, applies only to Basic 'ware, not Cultured. This is, of course, something that has been House Ruled.

"Incorrect" on all counts.

Type O System
Cost: 30 BP
Though exceptionally rare, a few lucky people in the world
have completely non-allergenic “type O” cells, meaning that they
can give organ transplants to just about anyone with little chance of
rejection. While the character cannot accept second-hand bioware
at all, their essential cell line is already cultivated as the generic
standard throughout the world. Off the rack, basic bioware is considered
delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body

BIO WARE GRADE S
Like cyberware, bioware is available in varying quality and
availability. The most common off-the-shelf bioware is type O
and is roughly matched to the patient’s size and metatype. By
its nature, neural bioware—aka cultured bioware—must be
matched to the patient’s physiology, particularly his brain and
nervous system. Likewise, higher-quality bioware (alpha, beta) is
tailored more closely to individual biological systems and protein
matched to existing tissues. The highest quality bioware (delta)
is vat-grown from a cellular matrix containing the individual
patient’s own DNA, custom-made just for them.

As you can see from these descriptions, only basic grade, non-cultured bioware is considered type O, therefore only basic grade, non-cultured bioware can be considered as deltaware for the purposes of the type O system quality. Something interesting to note however is this quote from page 127 of Augmentation

Procuring Bioware
Bioware (type O) is available ready-made in basic and alpha
grades from a number of corporate suppliers and bio-banks. Betagrade
and better bioware must also be tailored to and grown from
the intended recipient’s tissue, just like cultured neurological bioware.
Cultured bioware may also be alpha, beta, or delta grade.

Before reading this I didn't think cultured bioware came in different grades. Also, based on this passage, as alpha bioware uses type O cells as well, it seems that type O quality takers can buy non-cultured alpha bioware and treat it as deltaware as well, although whether your GM chooses to interpret this as the implant taking up as much essence as normal deltaware stuff or as treating essence costs as half of that of alphaware is entirely up to him/her.

[Muspellsheimr]

By
its nature, neural bioware - aka cultured bioware - must be
matched to the patient's physiology, particularly his brain and nervous system

the organic processes or functions in an organism or in any of its parts.

Likewise, higher-grade bioware (alpha, beta) is
tailored more closely to individual biological systems and protein
matched to existing tissues.

Bioware Grades are determined by protein-matching & blood type - hence Type-O.
Cultured Bioware is matched to an individual's brain & nervous system, not their blood. Standard Grade Cultured Bioware is indeed custom made for a specific individual, but is done so with Type-O tissue.

CYBERWARE AND BIOWARE GRADES
Cyberware and bioware is available in four grades: standard, alphaware, betaware, and del-
taware.

BASIC BIOWARE

CULTURED BIOWARE

"Standard" is an augmentation Grade. "Basic" is a type of bioware separate from "Cultured". The quality specifically refers to Basic bioware, not Standard bioware; Basic bioware of any Grade is considered Delta to someone with the Type-O System quality.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Bioware Grades are determined by protein-matching & blood type - hence Type-O.
Cultured Bioware is matched to an individual's brain & nervous system, not their blood. Standard Grade Cultured Bioware is indeed custom made for a specific individual, but is done so with Type-O tissue.





"Standard" is an augmentation Grade. "Basic" is a type of bioware separate from "Cultured". The quality specifically refers to Basic bioware, not Standard bioware; Basic bioware of any Grade is considered Delta to someone with the Type-O System quality.

The quality also mentions "off the rack" bioware, and RAW clearly states in several instances that only non-cultured standard and alpha ware can ever be considered to be handy at your local augmentation clinic. Honestly though, by your argument the only thing you allow that I wouldn't would be that beta ware would also count as deltaware in a type O body, hardly a debateable point as there would be no point in buying betaware if standard ware is just as good. So we can agree on each other's interpretations, yes?