In another thread, someone mentioned how cheap Synaptic Boosters (bioware) are compared to Improved Reflexes (adept power): for 1.0 essence, you can get +2 Reaction and +2 IPs. With deltaware, you could get +3 Reaction and +3 IPs for a mere 0.75 essence: but deltaware is expensive, and you can't have any at character creation (even if you could afford it).

The quality Type O System seems to be a way around that restriction: it means that, for you, standard-grade bioware is the equivalent of deltaware when calculating essence cost. However, it's a 30 point quality, so you get that + Adept and you're done for positive qualities.

Synaptic Boosters (2), even at standard grade, are not cheap: 160,000 ¥ = 32 of your BP, and most of your gear allocation. Together with Type O System, that's 62 BP.

Assuming Adept with Magic 5 (4) = 45 BP, that leaves you with 200 BP for abilities, and 93 BP for everything else.

1/ How would you allocate those 4 remaining points of magic?

2/ What's the best use for the rest of that point of essence? I'm thinking 0.5 worth of cyberware, since eventually we'll want the Synaptic Boosters (3) = 0.75, so going over 0.5 in cyber would cost us another whole point eventually. On the other hand, if we skip cyber entirely and stick to bioware, we could stuff in the same 0.5 worth of standard-grade, thanks to our discount. 0.5 worth of standard-grade is pretty sweet: we could get five Skin Pockets! (...or Platelet Factories + Pain Editor.) Still, 0.5 worth of cyber is pretty sweet too, if we can expect to be able to get some use out of a Nanohive or six.

3/ It feels kinda wrong to be spending so many BPs on a single trick. However, it seems like a really good trick.

Thoughts?
Thanks, -- N

Synaptic Boosters are already Cultured Bioware and gain no benefit from Type O System.

D'oh! Then the spreadsheet I'm using did that bit wrong.

Thanks, -- N

I made the same mistake. It's a quick way to ruin a character concept. If Type O applied to all bioware, it's be worth 30 points. As written though, it's not nearly as valuable. Might still be worth it, but it'd have to be case specific, not generally superior.

Yeah.

I think the base concept still works -- Synaptic Booster (2) in a Physical Adept -- but you don't have 0.5 essence left to play with, and you won't get SB(3) until you can afford it as Deltaware. You're still saving 1.5 points worth of Magic which you can put to some other use.

Going with that, the concept opens up a lot more. Those 30 points really hurt! And if we can't start with cyber, then taking Sensitive System is a gimmie, for another +15 BP.

you don't get .5 essence to play with anyhow, partial essence loss of a point takes away the entire point for magic, iirc.

I'm sorry, I can't work it out. Can someone please explain to me (and refer to official word) why the type-O quality wouldn't work with cultured bioware? I seem to have previously read there was no reason it wouldn't. So, why? Just because you can't get cultured bioware "off the rack"? Or are you somehow of the opinion that cultured bioware can't be delta-grade? The way I read the rules, the 'cultured' tag doesn't affect the implant as much as it did in 3rd ed, for instance, it just means that it can't be transplanted from person to person, and that it's a bit more difficult/time-consuming to acquire.

People are of the opinion that as cultured bioware needs to be cloned from your very own tissue anyways and does more or less equate delta anyway, there is no difference and it does not gain anything by fitting you any better, because it allready has to be the best fit possible due to being cultured . .

The wording of the Type O quality states it only applies to Standard Bioware, not Cultured.

If you're less bound by RAW, then the fluff gives other rationalizations. Certain bioware is so drastic that your body will reject it unless certain parts of it are matched to your body. It's the same reason people wait months or years for organ transplants; it needs to match their body. Standard Bioware isn't drastic enough that your body is prone to rejecting it.

That's my interpretation anyway.

From Aug P. 20



From the way it sound when it says "basic bioware", and there is an actual "basic bioware" section in the book I think it would be limited to only the things listed in that section. But if you think about it that would still allow you to get Bone Density 4 (+4 body), Muscle Aug 4 (+4 strength), Muscle Toner 4 (+4 agility), Orthoskin 3 (+3 Armor), Suprathyroid Gland, Symbiotes 3 (+3 healing) all of this is cheaper in bioware with Type O than you would pay in magic as an adept. Essentially making a super BIO adept without having to pay so much Karma, saving the Karma for magic that you want to spend on adept power that you can't get with bioware.

You could also grab Biocompatibilty (bioware), which knocks 10% off Essence costs for all bioware. It means you can get a rating 3 synaptic accelerator for under 1 essence if you can afford betaware, rather than deltaware, and your initial synaptic accelerator 2 will come in at .9 essence, giving you a little wiggle room.

And biocompatibility also leaves some extra +Quality points left over for cool things like restricted gear for that level 4 weapon Foci!

... when you've spent 0.5 Essence, and you are at 5.5 Essence, (and -1 Magic), what do you have?

Answer: a spare 0.5 Essence, which you can spend without further penalty.

That is a good thought.

Cheers, -- N

Ah, Pardon, I misread what you were saying about having another half point to work with

I ended up going with a datajack, the synthocarium(sp?) the balance augmenter, and the retinal and fingerprint mimicking nanoware systems with the point of essence I devoted to such things, myself.

Nanoware is cool.

Ever since reading about it, I keep thinking how to sneak a couple of nanohives into every character I come up with...

I'm almost certain that basic biowear in the type-o is for basic grade not anything other. Though this is as old and aurg so its a GM ruling unless thees a FAQ for dev post on it.

Incorrect. Cultured Bioware is tailored to an individuals nervous system or brain structure. It is still grown from Type-O tissue, & follows the standard Grade rules of other augmentations.


Incorrect. The wording of the quality states it applies to Basic Bioware, not Cultured. Standard is a grade, not a type.

Incorrect. Fluff clearly indicates Type-O System should apply to all bioware, not just Basic. Quite the opposite of what you claim.


Basic bioware is a class of bioware, not a grade. Standard is the grade. The quality, as written, applies only to Basic 'ware, not Cultured. This is, of course, something that has been House Ruled.

Its RAW vs RAI. But ive forgotten what RAI was.

Rules as Intended...

Keep the Faith

I mean I've forgoten what the RAI for this was, not what RAI stands for. Damn ambiguous statements.

Indeed...

Keep the Faith

I don't agree with this at all. Typo-O says that your cell lines are the standard and Cultured says that the bioware is tailored to the individual without giving any more specifics on how that is accomplished, which implies that tailoring could include all manner of techniques. With Basic bioware, Typo O means you get Delta because basic bioware is apparently simple enough that rejection issues are the big hurdle that really hurts essence. Otherwise, muscle fibers are apparently muscle fibers and denser bones are denser bones. Meanwhile, Cultured 'ware is all stuff that deals directly with the brain and rejiggering the central nervous system as opposed to just feeding it new information. Such cells are notoriously plastic. Having these cells be from the same line in order to communicate properly at all is apparently either a bare minimum requirement or such a secondary concern to the other implantation concerns that being Type O is neither here nor there. This leaves implanting new neurons and cells that are already as close to being "in the loop" as possible as the primary way to reduce essence loss. The less your old cells have to change or be supplanted by in order to accommodate the addition of tailored cells, the less essence you lose due to being closer to your original holistic template. After all, tinkering with the CNS is a lot more involved than say, a skin graft. As far as fictional pseudo-science goes, it sounds legit enough to me to accept at face value for the purposes of running a sci-fi RPG.

"Incorrect" on all counts.

Type O System
Cost: 30 BP
Though exceptionally rare, a few lucky people in the world
have completely non-allergenic “type O” cells, meaning that they
can give organ transplants to just about anyone with little chance of
rejection. While the character cannot accept second-hand bioware
at all, their essential cell line is already cultivated as the generic
standard throughout the world. Off the rack, basic bioware is considered
delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body

BIO WARE GRADE S
Like cyberware, bioware is available in varying quality and
availability. The most common off-the-shelf bioware is type O
and is roughly matched to the patient’s size and metatype. By
its nature, neural bioware—aka cultured bioware—must be
matched to the patient’s physiology, particularly his brain and
nervous system. Likewise, higher-quality bioware (alpha, beta) is
tailored more closely to individual biological systems and protein
matched to existing tissues. The highest quality bioware (delta)
is vat-grown from a cellular matrix containing the individual
patient’s own DNA, custom-made just for them.

As you can see from these descriptions, only basic grade, non-cultured bioware is considered type O, therefore only basic grade, non-cultured bioware can be considered as deltaware for the purposes of the type O system quality. Something interesting to note however is this quote from page 127 of Augmentation

Procuring Bioware
Bioware (type O) is available ready-made in basic and alpha
grades from a number of corporate suppliers and bio-banks. Betagrade
and better bioware must also be tailored to and grown from
the intended recipient’s tissue, just like cultured neurological bioware.
Cultured bioware may also be alpha, beta, or delta grade.

Before reading this I didn't think cultured bioware came in different grades. Also, based on this passage, as alpha bioware uses type O cells as well, it seems that type O quality takers can buy non-cultured alpha bioware and treat it as deltaware as well, although whether your GM chooses to interpret this as the implant taking up as much essence as normal deltaware stuff or as treating essence costs as half of that of alphaware is entirely up to him/her.

Bioware Grades are determined by protein-matching & blood type - hence Type-O.
Cultured Bioware is matched to an individual's brain & nervous system, not their blood. Standard Grade Cultured Bioware is indeed custom made for a specific individual, but is done so with Type-O tissue.





"Standard" is an augmentation Grade. "Basic" is a type of bioware separate from "Cultured". The quality specifically refers to Basic bioware, not Standard bioware; Basic bioware of any Grade is considered Delta to someone with the Type-O System quality.

The quality also mentions "off the rack" bioware, and RAW clearly states in several instances that only non-cultured standard and alpha ware can ever be considered to be handy at your local augmentation clinic. Honestly though, by your argument the only thing you allow that I wouldn't would be that beta ware would also count as deltaware in a type O body, hardly a debateable point as there would be no point in buying betaware if standard ware is just as good. So we can agree on each other's interpretations, yes?

I also rather explicitly stated I had house ruled the quality to be a bit more useful and be consistent with the fluff.

I do not argue over an interpretation except to clarify Rules as Written.

So would you say that type O system should not apply to cultured bioware, by RAW interpretation, just to be clear? If you want to house rule type O system applying to cultured bioware, be my guest, it is a 30 point quality after all. I just want to make sure my interpretation of the rules as written is correct.

Rules as Written, the benefit of Type-O System applies to Basic Bioware of any grade.

I've actually found that you can cram a better setup of bio if you opt out of the boosters, especially if you have Type O. Muscle Aug and Toner come to mind, totalling to .8 essence if you go R4 for both. That leaves .2 essence worth of more bio, or go for .4 worth of cyber.

Yeah, but specifically for adepts the main reason you'd want cyber is to get extra IPs, because the only way adepts can do that with powers is rather incredibly inefficient (2.5 points of magic for the power or 1 point of magic for the cyber, although along with 32 BP worth of ). Sure an adept can get shit tons of strength and agility for the same essence cost as 2 extra IPs, but if you're only attacking once per Combat Turn you're still less effective than the guy who can act 3 times as much as you can.

Also, @Muspellsheimr, you're definition of basic bioware excluded cultured bioware, right? So we do agree that cultured bioware such as synapse boosters does not get a reduced essence benefit from the type O system quality by RAW?

Correct, "Basic Bioware" does not include synaptic accelerators. That's "Cultured Bioware," an entirely different class of bioware, therefore Type-O system doesn't work.

You know guys, if you're paying for something that is worth DOUBLE the point cost of being a mage, then why not allow it to apply to ALL bioware? It's not really game breaking to allow a Street Sam to do SOMETHING well. Also, another thing to consider... Being a Type O body means that if anyone finds out, then you're screwed! It's like the quality is worth 40 BP (10 BP flaw of Dark Secret), but of this small, but potentially horrible disadvantage.

Now, that is my problem with all of these Qualities that cost 30 BP: you don't get nearly as much as a mage who only pays half to be a mage. For 15 BP you get spells, spirits, and astral projection. Sure you can't get as much 'ware, but honestly, does that really matter all THAT much?

I have no problems with a GM houseruling that Type O system applies to all bioware, indeed this doesn't seem at all unbalancing and certainly makes the 30BP spent on the quality seem more worthwhile. I'm simply arguing that that is not what the quality gives by RAW and that to allow that use is indeed a houserule.

Type O System, in my game, has a cost of 25 BP and applies to all bioware. It is now worth its cost, without becoming a "must have".


@KCKitsune, magicians do not pay 15 BP for spells and spirits. They pay 15 BP for the option of spending a significant amount of additional resources on spells and spirits.

Samurai are just fine without the quality, magic is not overpowered (I will admit some specific aspects of it are, but the same can be applied to nearly any other area of the game as well). The quality was simply to costly for to little effect. If it's going to be there, it needs to be balanced.

The ”danger” of having a Type O system is a bit hyped I think.

There is no risk of the person being killed and harvested unless by the most lowest and most stupid of organ leggers.

The only thing *I* would take from a Type-O character is a larger blood sample, enough to clone with.

Hell, the character could probably walk up to DocWagon and get a contract with them for a monthly blood sample for their organ cloning banks.

The Type O is a positive quality and should be used as such and not have the character going paranoid about it.

Throw in a free Standard DocWagon Contract for free as he is a useful customer for ALL medical centers in Seattle.

He could even have a “day job” representing the hours he needs to spend to give blood every week to several medical centers around town in exchange for a discount on medical service.

I wouldn't think that a Type-O runner would have to worry about random people jumping him for his liver, but it does mean that all the bioware in their body is as good as it would be off the shelf, so if you do off the Type O, you could sell all his implants as new rather than used. Not that even that is a significant enough draw to get some bottom of the barrel pathetic organlegger to try and hunt down a dyed in the blood killer just for parts.

You need to find the Ware first, though . . It counts as Delta in ALL REGARDS. And especially with cultivated delta if allowed, it is impossible to tell natural from engineered flesh.

OK, for that 30 points that the Sammy pays for his Type O +Quality, the mage get the Magician +Quality, Magic 2, one spell, & a specialization in one skill (or 10,000 ).

If you go with Mystic Adept you get Mystic Adept +Quality AND Magic 3... for those same 30 pts.

Now do you see what I mean?

That's what I've done in the game I'm running. Type O System lets you get ANY bioware (basic or cultured) at standard grade and treat it as though it were Delta. I don't give any discounts for having a higher grade implanted if you have Type O System though you do get the rest of the benefits of a higher grade 'ware.

I'd consider it a must have if it affects everything at that price, tbh. I'd just play a delta mystic adept or adept face every session if I were feeling completely shameless. The ability to relatively cheaply acquire all forms of attribute bonuses is pretty powerful.