The Great CGL Rumors and Speculation Thread Options

[Endroren]

As a freelancer who is owed a fair amount of money right now I'd LOVE to get paid (should have waited to buy the new computer until AFTER I got the check! DOH!) and I hope that I will. And I think it is GREAT to see people caring about us - seriously - my jaw dropped when I heard the news and the support from everyone here toward those of us writing is incredible. Thank you!

Regarding some of the ideas for getting material out, however, please don't underestimate the amount of additional work that goes into a book after the writing. Let's just start with editing. Sure, the freelancer writes his share of the material, but then that material gets turned over to an editor. That editor puts a TON of work into that text. It goes back. It gets re-written. It goes back to the editor. The editor reads it again. Someone else proofs it. The Line Developer OK's it. Someone else fact checks it.

It then goes to artists who are paid to do art to go with the text. And a layout person who works on the layout. And so on and so forth.

Throw in the infrastructure necessary to support all these people - that's another ongoing expense that effectively increases the development cost of a book.

The end result is that the product the author "owns" isn't anything like the product that makes it into the book. I'd love to take full credit for what readers get, but it's a collaborative effort. If I gave away what I wrote, it not only means I'm giving away an editor's time/money (assuming I give you the edited version) but all the other work that went into this as well.

So I agree that it REALLY stinks when some amazing project that tons of people have worked on never sees the light of day, but it just isn't as simple as me distributing my word doc original. There is just a LOT more to it than the words I type onto the page.

[Ancient History]

Second, I also wanted to point out that I was a freelancer for SoLA

Okay, time out. I have the TOC and you're listed as one of five people with credit for "editing" in SOLA. You didn't write anything, you didn't participate in any of the discussions regarding the writing of anything, and I don't think you were even a member of the group, because I just went back and double-checked the member lit. No offense man, but you have the most tenuous frickin' link to SOLA of anyone, calling yourself a freelancer on the project is...it's not completely untruthful since you were technically a freelancer at the time, but it's damned misleading.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

So I agree that it REALLY stinks when some amazing project that tons of people have worked on never sees the light of day, but it just isn't as simple as me distributing my word doc original. There is just a LOT more to it than the words I type onto the page.

Well, I'm more than happy enough with the SoLA PDFs from Demonseed Elite and Ancient History's RTF – and I'm fairly certain that to many people, it's better than no SoLA at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cheops]

<snip Vitriol>

I'm not saying that fixed TNs are the financial ruin of anything. I don't know where you got that from at all. Also your "random" guy on the street is Proficient and would have 2 skill in SR4 (1/3 of the way to best in the world). I don't know off the cuff how much more difficult a +3 TN would without knowing the base TN -- that's a rather stupid argument. "It's not good because you can't tell the chances based on not having the basic input that you need to calculate!" If you are going to argue at least try to be honest about it. I can work out the chances of success when looking at the final TN or based on different modifiers when given the base TN. And it is just as hard/easy to find your actual chances of success as SR4. They are both binomial pass/fail systems so in either case you are going to need a spreadsheet. Neither one is as transparent as you think (SR4 has a positive skew because of the TN 5 so averages only tell you half the story). Based on my experiences at table and on these boards many people do not understand binomial distributions and just default to the average which can be misleading.

Also, 23% is not 54%. The skilled guy is succeeding half the time whereas the less skilled guy only has a 23% chance. Does your sarariman want to bet his life on a competition with the ninja? I'll also point out that the ninja will have far better odds of ending up with more successes than the sarariman and thus will perform the task better than the sarariman. Unless you were talking about a test only needing 1 success to happen or with no bonuses for extra successes then you are only telling half the story. A ninja with 9 pistols can kill you in 1 shot with a hold out pistol without spending Combat Pool whereas your sarariman will never get higher than 3 boxes of damage without spending combat pool. You say there are no benefits to higher skill because he can make that impossible shot 23% of the time? SR4 that guy has the same odds of hitting -- would you say that 2 skill = 6 skill?

How about an Open Stealth test? Sure the sarariman has equal odds of being just as sneaky as the ninja but the ninja will be consistently more sneaky than the sarariman. The sarariman needs to get consistently lucky to beat the ninja. He has a 42% chance of rolling a six whereas the ninja has an 80% chance of a 6. Again, does the sarariman want to bet on a competition against the ninja? Do you have some Monte Carlo simulations that you care to share with the community?

Stop being so hostile while only being half honest. I prefer SR3 to SR4 based on the fun that has been had at my table. Someone expressed a desire for similar levels of skills and then someone else was asking if high TNs were there for GM abuse or if there was a purpose to them. I answered both and have been generally more honest about my argument than you have.

Edited: got rid of some bad math.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

How about an Open Stealth test?

Open tests were the single most broken mechanic in Shadowrun:
The rest of the mechanic centered around getting more successes – just this one centered around just rolling higher. It didn't fit at all and people even houseruled them out of existence in SR3.

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, 7 dice for skill and specialization, one die from enhanced artwinkulation, then combat pool . . and you don't roll a single 6. And someone with exactly one die for skill rolls a 6 and beats you.

[Endroren]

Well, I'm more than happy enough with the SoLA PDFs from Demonseed Elite and Ancient History's RTF – and I'm fairly certain that to many people, it's better than no SoLA at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My point was that I can't really claim personal ownership anymore than an architect can claim ownership of the building he constructed. All I own, once I sign that contract, is the money I'm due. There are always exceptions and there are things that can void a contract, but even then I might not be legally permitted to release the material. I'm just a "fan writer" at that point, and once I start taking MONEY for that product, now we're really getting into dangerous waters.

[spongeclip]

So I just created an account here to add to this discussion. I'm a freelance writer (not for SR) , webdesigner and c++ programmer and long time gamer. That means I'm currently unemlpoyed... Most of the gaming i've done recently, as sporadic or non-existent as it has been, has been with my own homebrew system or with gurps.

Started playing shadowrun in 2nd when it was new - stopped, dug into thrid years later, and now even more years later i stumble upon 4th edition, get excited and buy the core books for 4th on amazon. So i browse around look up some fan made stuff find the catalyst games site, track down the old/new wordman sheets wander onto dumpshock, correlate data - Result = I find this thread and the post on CGL's site that leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth and and distinct feeling of unease floating over the question of shadowrun's future.

Now what?

I've seen this kind fo thing happen before in different industries. Usually a guy starts a company and employs his girlfriend (as in not wife; as in he is married to someone else) to be the bookkeeper. THey do the work and funnel the money out the backdoor. By the time the money is gone the company is bankrupt and dissolved and the lawsuits hit a big wall of nothing. Not saying that is what has happened here but it usually happens like that or because a 'kid' gets away with something and when he finds out that no one noticed and he didnt get punished that he can do it again and then it becomes habit leading to an inevitable explosion.

Maybe I'm bitter because I just discovered SR again and learn of its questionable future at the same time but reality always flows in a certain way.

[CeeJay]

... I don't know off the cuff how much more difficult a +3 TN would without knowing the base TN -- that's a rather stupid argument. "It's not good because you can't tell the chances based on not having the basic input that you need to calculate!" If you are going to argue at least try to be honest about it. I can work out the chances of success when looking at the final TN or based on different modifiers when given the base TN....

That's beside the point. What Frank Trollman was trying to point out (At least I think so, feel free to correct me) is, that a +3 TN modifier doesn't alter your success chances by a specific amount. The impact of a TN modifier is depending on the TN you start with. If you apply the smart-gun modifier of -2 to an TN of 4, you are greatly increasing your chances to hit. The same modifier applied to an starting TN of 8 will help you next to nothing.
I imagine that from a game designers point of view this makes it really difficult to judge the impact of TN modifiers...
And SR4 fixed that problem to some degree. A +3 DP modifier roughly equals one additional success irrespective of the dicepool size.

-CJ

[FrankTrollman]

So Frank: does this mean you're back?

Of course not.

Recall that I did not storm out and give Dumpshock the finger. The mods gave me the finger and told me in no uncertain terms that they did not want me here. As you can see Here, Bull made it quite clear that he did not want me posting analysis of things whether I was insulting anyone or not. Yes, I got my account suspended for, in a "General Gaming" discussion about 4e D&D, explaining that Rogue/Wizard was not a supported archetype - which is even design intent according to the makers of that game (as Rogue and Wizard are different "roles," have different primary and secondary stats, and mandatorily use different implements). That suspension came with an exceedingly unpleasant PM from Bull. I quit the board completely, and when I came back to drop a link to the fan-made Shadowrun board game that I was distributing for free at he time, I was again sent a load of nasty grams from the mods about how they would be "watching me closely" and that if I did anything even slightly provocative that they would ban me permanently. There is, explicitly and by design - no place for me on Dumpshock.

Which of course is why I was selected to come forward about the monetary irregularities. It was, and still is, figured that whoever came forward would have a very real chance of having their account banned, of being lambasted as a traitor, of never being trusted to write for Shadowrun again (even if the problems get addressed), and so on. And I could weather all that, because I already had my falling out, years ago. Whether I get banned or not doesn't matter, because there is already no place for me in Dumpshock. Whether I get backlisted from writing more material or not doesn't matter, because I'm already blacklisted. Amongst all of the writers past and present, I'm safe. So I can go forward and be the guy who spills the beans. I can be the big jerk, because everyone knows that I'm a well known crackpot.

There is a very substantial chance that the way forward for Shadowrun will be to form a new company and have that company get the license when it comes up for renewal in 2 months. We've done it before. Twice before. So it's hardly unthinkable. If that turns out to be the solution, things will go smoother if that gets established as early as possible - which means that shining a light on the problem now is likely the best way to get the license issues settled quickly when it matters in May. Remember, InMediaRes LLC is not a person. It's a legal entity. A limited liability corporation. It also does not own Shadowrun, it is merely a license holder. If IMR LLC cannot get its ducks in a row in the very short amount of time before the license comes up, the correct course of action is to create a new legal entity separate from those problems, and then have the people who have financial interests in the IMR fallout continue those deliberations separately from Shadowrun's continuation. There is no shame in that, it's just a corporate shell game. But if it is going to happen, it has to happen soon, and that means getting the ball rolling soon. And if that means airing dirty laundry, of being banned from Dumpshock "for real this time" - then so be it.

I'm still an opinionated jerk, that hasn't changed. I have strong opinions about what was done right and what was done wrong. And what could be done better. But none of that is actually important if people are collectively afraid to come forward about the financial elephant in the room and the license is allowed to expire without a backup plan for Shadowrun generally. I don't always agree with the direction Shadowrun has been taken. I have had lots of disagreements with many of the past and current producers. But I want Shadowrun to be taken in a direction. And that means first blowing the whistle, and secondly it means coming down heavily on people who spout fallacious reactionary nonsense about how we should regress the genuinely positive improvements that Rob made when we first moved to SR4.

But mostly it means stepping aside again. Before I get my account banned "for real this time" of course, but also because there is no place for me at Dumpshock. And unfortunately, I've done all I can to make sure Shadowrun continues.

-Frank

[JM Hardy]

Okay, time out. I have the TOC and you're listed as one of five people with credit for "editing" in SOLA. You didn't write anything, you didn't participate in any of the discussions regarding the writing of anything, and I don't think you were even a member of the group, because I just went back and double-checked the member lit. No offense man, but you have the most tenuous frickin' link to SOLA of anyone, calling yourself a freelancer on the project is...it's not completely untruthful since you were technically a freelancer at the time, but it's damned misleading.

Wait, what? Yes, I was an editor on the project--which, for that particular project, involved copious amounts of re-writing of some sections. But that's neither here nor there. I mentioned it to point out that by canceling SoLA, I'm not just preventing other people from being paid, but also preventing myself from being paid. How is that at all misleading?

Jason H.

[Penta]

spongeclip:

Ouch. Talk about a hard way to get (re)introduced to SR.

For what its worth....I don't think either scenario is how it shook out here. What I'm going to write is basically speculation, but I would be unsurprised if it hit close to the truth.

Way I see it shaking out:

Way back when, InMediaRes/CGL was a tiny company, basically more of a hobby with articles of incorporation than a full-time job. Lots and lots of gaming companies start like this.

At that time, one of the owners comingled the business account with his personal accounts. This is a nono, but is incredibly common. Essentially, he used the company as a piggy bank.

(Hordes of lawyers get disbarred for this every year in the US.)

Now, IMR/CGL grew. It got new owners.

Those owners, as is in fact customary after any such acquisition (and often before it), undertook a detailed review of the company's accounts.

In this review, usually incredibly stressful for anybody involved, things were discovered to be out of kilter.

OldOwner probably got to have a chat with new owners about how he will make earnest efforts to repay the amount comingled, or else he might face a lawsuit.

For what it's worth, this does not mean that anybody was necessarily acting with ill intent, it does not mean SE or BT or any of CGL's properties will cease.

It means CGL needs to have much better accounting procedures, and a much sharper division in money terms between the corp and the owners.

As a privately-held company, keep in mind they didn't have to say a damn word. Rumor got out, which probably forced them to say something, but I'd like to think they would have said something regardless.

What does it mean for us as gamers? Really, there's not much we can do but send good thoughts towards CGL, and keep buying what they put out.

Personally, I'm not letting this impact whether or not I get CGL stuff. My money shortage has a much bigger impact.

I'm not sure, to be quite honest, whether it should impact whether you get CGL stuff, either.

[Stahlseele]

Of course not.

Pity ._. I like those posts of yours very much ^^
Still, good to see you're still alive and kicking.

[Cheops]

Yeah, 7 dice for skill and specialization, one die from enhanced artwinkulation, then combat pool . . and you don't roll a single 6. And someone with exactly one die for skill rolls a 6 and beats you.

Isn't this the selling point that everyone always touts for Shadowrun over D&D? "D&D is lame you have so many hit points that you can't be killed by big nasty weapons." So now you are saying that you don't want some street punk with a pistol to be able to occasionally (very occasionally) put your street sam down? SR4 feels much closer to D&D than I've ever felt with any version of SR. That's just IMO.

I'll leave it at that. I like SR3 and you guys like SR4. Either way the freelancers at CGL have come up with good storylines and great fluff (I loved Emergence as a book to read and the LA section of CE). It is sad that they were treated poorly and that rumored malfeasance might rob them of any chance of ever getting paid for their work. If Earthdawn can survive I'm sure Shadowrun will too.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[graywulfe]

<Snip> They collapsed because in the face of a deliberate and coordinated attack on the shelf space and market share by OGL 3e D&D they decided to try to get "new fans" by making a whole new World of Darkness that no one liked.<Snip>

This kind of unilateral statement is my major problem with Frank's posts. It's so much fun to be no one. Strangely running multiple games in the NWOD I have lots of company in being no one.

I could say alot more but I can't trust my temper to not overstep the line right now.

Graywulfe

[Redjack]

Since I am a mod and being included in the conversation I will post here once to clarify what I deem as a gross mis-characterization.
-------------------

told me in no uncertain terms that they did not want me here. As you can see Here, Bull made it quite clear that he did not want me posting analysis of things whether I was insulting anyone or not.

You know what, that's it. Knock the thread crapping off right this instance.

Constructive posts stating that why you dislike a game is fine. Constantly posting such things, especially when thread starters and other memebrs have asked you not to repeatedly is not ok. State your case, and move on. ANything else is a combination of trolling and baiting. Aka Threadcrapping, pissing on others parades because you feel like being an ass.

Frank's got a time out coming, the rest of you, consider this a blanket thread warning for here and elsewhere.

Any reasonable person can see that there was in fact a reason for your suspension(s) as well as scrutiny of your posts. You are not the first and you will surely not be the last. As in every case, if you abide by the TOS, there won't be a problem.

-------------------

There is, explicitly and by design - no place for me on Dumpshock.

There is a measure of civility that is expected from the user base. The only "design" to not have a place here is your own.

-------------------

It was, and still is, figured that whoever came forward would have a very real chance of having their account banned, of being lambasted as a traitor

Your perception here is also incorrect. Our membership is not dictated by, nor affected by the whims of a company. They will, of course, have their fair chance to reply.. as they have. [To be clear, no such request was made.]

-Redjack

[Dwight]

... and now, a musical interlude.

[Mr. Man]

Maybe I'm bitter because I just discovered SR again and learn of its questionable future at the same time but reality always flows in a certain way.

Nothing questionable about it. One thing everyone agrees on is that (even in this economy) Shadowrun is turning decent profits. This is not something that most RPG lines can boast. Just mentally decouple Shadowrun's future from CGL's and you're all set.

Which of course is why I was selected to come forward about the monetary irregularities. It was, and still is, figured that whoever came forward would have a very real chance of having their account banned, of being lambasted as a traitor, of never being trusted to write for Shadowrun again (even if the problems get addressed), and so on.

He's the hero Dumpshock deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not our hero, he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector, a Trollman.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist)

[Stahlseele]

Isn't this the selling point that everyone always touts for Shadowrun over D&D? "D&D is lame you have so many hit points that you can't be killed by big nasty weapons." So now you are saying that you don't want some street punk with a pistol to be able to occasionally (very occasionally) put your street sam down?

No. And your example does not really work for me either. A Punk with a heavy Pistol and 2 Skill can, at most, get the Gun up to 9S Damage.
With only 4 points of Armor, the Samurai needs to roll two 5'S to go from Serious to Moderate Damage. most likely he can stage it down even further.

It's more like: The TN for hitting the guys hand in the car driving at break neck speed while you are on your motorcycle over long distance in rain and fog (it's seattle) is 20.
Samurai rolls, all in all, maximum of 16 dice satraight out of character generation.
Better chance for one success than with only 1 die the Ganger can muster.

Now both of them need to roll and the highest roll wins.
Samurai rolls his 16 die, ganger rolls his one die. And the ganger wins because he rolls a 6 and the samurai rolled only a 5 as the highest roll with all of his dice.

Edit:

He's the hero Dumpshock deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not our hero, he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector, a Trollman.

Bwahahahahaah perfect ^^

[raben-aas]

Erh... could you solve or continue the rules/system battle in another thread? I get an eMail note whenever sth new comes up in this thread. If I wanted to debate rules issues, I would ... I dunno ... I don't want to.

[raben-aas]

(Double Post. My 1st one. Whee)

[Wesley Street]

He's the hero Dumpshock deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not our hero, he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector, a Trollman.

Swear to ME!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Semerkhet]

Of course not.
-Frank

Given your last couple of posts, I would like to see more. Your defense of the SR4 dice mechanic left me grinning and jealous. SR3 is dead, long live SR4!

[X-Kalibur]

Frank is a good guy, overall. Sure he's an opinionated jackass, but who on these boards isn't? Good to see you still kickin' around, Frank. Love to have you back but I understand how you feel.

(And come on, Frank trollman, who doesn't expect a good trolling every now and again from someone with it in their name... or maybe it's titular?

[Warlordtheft]

Considering we've had no news since JM Harding's post, and the fact is Catalyst's press realease addresses this issue, could this thread get locked?

We got several tangents going on revolving around game design, while fascinating, really should be in another thread (I am guilty of side tracking a thread on more than one occasion, so call me a hypocrite if you want to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ).

<also to put out some potential flame wars (IMG:style_emoticons/default/extinguish.gif) , before someone gets the banhammer or poisons the atmosphere on one of my favortie message boards>


PS: I can't remember the last time a thread got locked.