The Great CGL Rumors and Speculation Thread Options

[Larsine]

Well they might be hiring, of yourse you may have to take your payment in PDF credits (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Proofreaders gets payment i BattleShop credits... after a while... eventually... hopefully...

[Stahlseele]

Now for one of the more unwelcome Questions:
How many of the old guard that basically made up shadowrun to be what we know it to be today is still on board?
We know Jason is still there, Ancient History too. who else?
It seems to me as if most of the Freelancers have left. And Adam. And Jennifer. And i think someone else whom i forgot.

[Demonseed Elite]

I left, but that's not recent news. Ghost Cartels was the last project I contributed to.

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, figured it would be easier to ask who was LEFT instead of WHO LEFt this time around . .
Don't tell me there's only Bobby and Jason left of the old group? O.o

[Method]

Proofreaders gets payment i BattleShop credits... after a while... eventually... hopefully...

Playtesters in the same fashion.

How many of the old guard that basically made up shadowrun to be what we know it to be today is still on board?

Ha! When I hear "old guard" I think of guys like Weismann, Hume, Dowd et. al. Some of them are no longer with the living, much less any company producing SR books...

[Stahlseele]

OK, then let's narrow it down a bit:
How many of the people from SR3 are still there?

[Ancient History]

OK, then let's narrow it down a bit:
How many of the people from SR3 are still there?

Uh...not many. Of those, I couldn't tell you exactly which ones are "gone" and which ones are still around. Jason Hardy did some freelancing back then (editing, not sure about writing and too arsed to look), Lars Blumenstein and Tobias Wolter of course, and myself (although just barely, seeing as my contributions were fairly tail-end). Sort of blanking on anyone else, the freelancing pool's been...shrinking.

[Stahlseele]

Been afraid of that answer . . Even if shadowrun is not dead/dieing, i'm afraid it might just not be the same ever again like this <.<

[Catadmin]

I'm still interested in hearing what others think of this kind of model for publication. Think if we could get enough upfront scrilla to pay the freelancers that they'd put the latest PDFs back out in the world?

I'm a new freelancer at CGL, but having done fiction work in media tie-in (Transformers: Legends), I can tell you right now that unfortunately such a thing would be a losing proposition for the freelancers.

First, while we own the copyright on what we write, we do not own the copyright on SR specific terms and characters. For us to accept payment from anyone that is not an official license holder of the product is a legal nightmare. Think about how many people get sued these days for pirating and copyright infringement. While CGL may appreciate and encourage fan additions to the product, it's not the same for the freelancers. Some of us have signed contracts, all of us have signed NDAs (non-disclosure agreements), and basically we have an informal, but totally enforceable legal agreement with Catalyst to let them earn money off our work.

If we were to suddenly accept money to publish product without giving CGL their cut, we'd basically be cutting our own throats. The only way it would be a remotely acceptable risk is to officially resign from CGL and then post fan product without expectation of pay. Which none of us really wants to do.

The thought is appreciated. It's nice to hear that so many people love SR so much that they want it to keep going. But the legalities behind licensed IP are tricky and a dangerous minefield to walk through. I don't have much of a reputation yet, but I've been working too hard for what little I have of one to blow it all by making the mistake of accepting money from someone who cannot legally give me permission to publish original (but copyrighted) material.

If the fans really want to do donations to help the issues along, I suggest talking to Jason Hardy, who can then talk to CGL management, about setting up a fund to go to CGL for the sole purpose of paying freelancers. Kinda like when you donate to a college fund and can tell the board of directors how you want the money to be used. I don't know if CGL would accept the terms dictated by the fans, but it is the safest course, legally speaking, and is the least likely solution to cause further problems between the freelancers and the company.

That definitely adds more possibilities as to why the audit was conducted, perhaps started by or because of the new bookkeeper.

It also lends a couple explanations for why she left. Either unhappy with the direction management was taking with the matter or concerned for how it might reflect on her professionally despite having no hand in what happened.

Guys, please don't knock on Jennifer for being the short-term financial person. I don't know her well, but I saw the effects of her work. She did an amazing job with what limited resources she had. I'm sorry to see her go because she knew how to get things done. Being a database admin IRL, I understand the whole issue of ethics better than most and while I don't know what problem she encountered (and don't intend to ask), I applaud her decision to stand firm on her principals. Most people would complain about the problem, but give in anyway just to protect themselves.

[Stahlseele]

Weeellll . . . lookie here . . guys, we have a new Freelancer *pokes it* O.o
Welcome, to dumpshock. Also, we are mostly big fans of Mrs Harding.

[Catadmin]

All that being said, now that I've caught up on the rest of the thread, I realize my post sounds a little preachy. I truly did not intend that. And if I've stepped on any toes in the process, I apologize.

[Catadmin]

Weeellll . . . lookie here . . guys, we have a new Freelancer *pokes it* O.o
Welcome, to dumpshock.

Hey! That tickles!

Thankee for the welcome. Fair warning, though, I lurk more than post.

This post has been edited by Catadmin: Mar 21 2010, 12:55 AM

[Stahlseele]

Well THAT's certainly nothing new for the Freelancers.
Well, Uncle Drake being the exception and an exceptional blabbermouth as well of course *snickers*
But it's what we love about him. That and his sense of humor and his weird outlook on stuff too ^^
Fair warning from me: Don't take us, and especially me, too serious.

[Patrick Goodman]

Or, written another way, they are willing to substitute a certain amount of monetary gains (or the probability there-of) in return for some other thing they value. Negotiations happen, market values are determined, capitalism marches on.

Correct. We get to contribute something, however minute (at least in the case of my contributions, which are a meager 17,000 words or so over a period of a lot of years), to something we love. Shadowrun's been a big part of my life since it first appeared on the shelves lo these many years ago. I was thrilled just to see my name in print for all my playtesting and proofreading for Mike Mulvihill back in the Man & Machine days, I'm still proud of all the cleanup and work I did to make Cannon Companion a better book than I think it would have been otherwise...and the stuff I got to write for Target: Matrix was my first professionally published work. I still get the occasional email about Azziewatch, and that's been ten years or so since I wrote that.

So I can look back, as can any number of the freelancers here on this forum, and say with complete honesty, "I made Shadowrun a better game, and the fans are happy about it, and we're all better of because of it."

That doesn't change for an instant that it took a frelling long time to get paid for Target: Matrix. It doesn't change for an instant that I didn't get my signed copies of the contract for Running Wild back until well after the book had seen print and I'd received my author's copies. I'd like to be paid for my work on RW because I need to fix my wife's car and I owe her an anniversary dinner that was going to be paid for out of that check (she was busy having my son right before our last anniversary, and events conspired against us for a while, which is why I still owe her that dinner). Since we're coming up on our next anniversary, I'm going to owe her two dinners now.

All this, I guess, is just me being long-winded by way of saying you're right, we do trade some monetary gain for other things of value...but that doesn't mean we don't need to be paid.

[Patrick Goodman]

Yeah, figured it would be easier to ask who was LEFT instead of WHO LEFt this time around . .
Don't tell me there's only Bobby and Jason left of the old group? O.o

Define "old guard" here. I'm still around, though I'm mostly silent these days. I started, as stated elsewhere, by playtesting and proofing Man & Machine. Does that count?

[Ancient History]

Demme. I always forget about Padraig.

[Patrick Goodman]

It's easy to do. I didn't do that much in the scheme of things, not when you hold it up next to other people's contributions.

[Method]

Welcome to Dumpshock, Catadmin. I look forward to your work (have we seen any yet?).

[Stahlseele]

Define "old guard" here. I'm still around, though I'm mostly silent these days. I started, as stated elsewhere, by playtesting and proofing Man & Machine. Does that count?

Heck, of course you count ya old fart! ^^
*looks at your signatures last line*
And another one to go . .

[Patrick Goodman]

Heck, of course you count ya old fart! ^^
*looks at your signatures last line*
And another one to go . .

Don't read too much into that. I've had a substantial and reasonable discussion quite recently with Jason Hardy and, while I won't be writing anything for the game anytime soon, once everything shakes out, we've both left the door open to my possibly becoming involved with Shadowrun again in the future. So we'll see how it goes.

[Stahlseele]

Aaah, okay, then that is something a bit different i think.
Well, good, at least some of the old guard still staying on board.
Hopefully, you all get what you deserve. And i mean money <.<;,

[Athenor]

Here's what I don't get.

I understand this is an industry born out of mom & pop companies. I also realize that in the last decade, game companies have had to mature in order to compete with other media outlets (notably the MMO's and other video games). The products of these upgrades are awesome, but also costly -- books are pretty as fuck and well written, but cost $15-20 more.

So why are game companies run like this, with regards to their finances? Is it the nature of not having stockholders watching over them? Is it the whole understaffed thing? Is it based on how newspapers and magazines pay their freelancers? As someone who would like to write for a living someday, this.. this just boggles my mind. Then again, I've been dealing with a lot of managerial.. quirks lately, and I'm starting to think the world needs better business people out there.

[Freejack]

Proofreaders gets payment i BattleShop credits... after a while... eventually... hopefully...

Yea, I think the last two that I, well "admitted to" is the best way of saying it I guess, working on have yet to see PDF credits (just verified that I received credits for two of the four I've worked on). But I use them to get minis, T-shirts, and dice though, not the game PDF. Usually the credit arrives a week or more after the PDF is available and I've already picked it up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Carl

[Stahlseele]

Here's what I don't get.

I understand this is an industry born out of mom & pop companies. I also realize that in the last decade, game companies have had to mature in order to compete with other media outlets (notably the MMO's and other video games). The products of these upgrades are awesome, but also costly -- books are pretty as fuck and well written, but cost $15-20 more.

So why are game companies run like this, with regards to their finances? Is it the nature of not having stockholders watching over them? Is it the whole understaffed thing? Is it based on how newspapers and magazines pay their freelancers? As someone who would like to write for a living someday, this.. this just boggles my mind. Then again, I've been dealing with a lot of managerial.. quirks lately, and I'm starting to think the world needs better business people out there.

All of those factors working together.

[kzt]

Here's what I don't get.

I understand this is an industry born out of mom & pop companies. I also realize that in the last decade, game companies have had to mature in order to compete with other media outlets (notably the MMO's and other video games). The products of these upgrades are awesome, but also costly -- books are pretty as fuck and well written, but cost $15-20 more.

So why are game companies run like this, with regards to their finances? Is it the nature of not having stockholders watching over them? Is it the whole understaffed thing? Is it based on how newspapers and magazines pay their freelancers? As someone who would like to write for a living someday, this.. this just boggles my mind. Then again, I've been dealing with a lot of managerial.. quirks lately, and I'm starting to think the world needs better business people out there.

Few people who are creative enough to want to create and run a game company have run a company before. They don't have very deep pockets, so they typically don't hire people with the experience they don't have. Everything is more complex and both takes longer and costs more than they had planned for. Things that seemed like a good idea don't seem like such a good idea when they realize they need an accountant (that they don't have money for) to do the taxes.

Even when you have everything on the business side working you get things like the lead designer lying about how much progress he's made, which leads to a very expensive booth at Gencon with no product to sell.

It's not easy, particularity the first time you try to do it.