The Great CGL Rumors and Speculation Thread Options

[Method]

You did notice that Jennifer Harding and Adam Jury quit?

A very interesting point....

[Stahlseele]

How so?

[Method]

I wouldn't want to speculate.

[Dread Moores]

If you think this is a total bull idea, why do you? Could it be changed to work?

Two issues I see. One, there's still no line developer in the group of people you listed. I mean, I'm sure some of them could do the job (though I'd wonder that AH or Adam certainly haven't shown any interest in pursuing such a position when it has opened up several times in the last few years), but just that you didn't list one. A line developer would definitely be needed for project management and cat-herding.

Secondly (and this borders well on a perception of SR I've had for a while), you need way more than one or two people for fact-checking and freelance writing in most cases. Proofreading in recent SR4 products hasn't seemed quite as solid as product on the BT side lately. Fact-checking and the freelancer crowd in general has seemed to have a much larger group on the BT side (my perception, I haven't compared books side by side, I simply know that BT has its own fact-checking group which isn't something I recall for SR).

[zephir]

You did notice that Jennifer Harding and Adam Jury quit?

Yes, they quit CGL.

[Method]

you need way more than one or two people for fact-checking and freelance writing in most cases.

You would find no shortage of freelancers. As someone has already pointed out there are way more talented people who would love to write or create art for SR than will ever have the opportunity. Plus I suspect a number of the older freelancers wouldn't be adverse to writing SR again for the right management team and under the right conditions.

[Dread Moores]

You would find no shortage of freelancers. As someone has already pointed out there are way more talented people who would love to write or create art for SR than will ever have the opportunity. Plus I suspect a number of the older freelancers wouldn't be adverse to writing SR again for the right management team and under the right conditions.

Agreed. It was just something I didn't see noted in the original idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[zephir]

Two issues I see. One, there's still no line developer in the group of people you listed. I mean, I'm sure some of them could do the job (though I'd wonder that AH or Adam certainly haven't shown any interest in pursuing such a position when it has opened up several times in the last few years), but just that you didn't list one. A line developer would definitely be needed for project management and cat-herding.

Secondly (and this borders well on a perception of SR I've had for a while), you need way more than one or two people for fact-checking and freelance writing in most cases. Proofreading in recent SR4 products hasn't seemed quite as solid as product on the BT side lately. Fact-checking and the freelancer crowd in general has seemed to have a much larger group on the BT side (my perception, I haven't compared books side by side, I simply know that BT has its own fact-checking group which isn't something I recall for SR).

I admit I have little insight into the gaming industry.
Is being a line developer in addition to handling the finances too much workload for one person?

This fact-checking group you mention must be something apart from the core company, I guess. I seem to remember some posters mentioning they (should) have received some form of company credit for their fact-checking, proof-reading and playtesting.

[Method]

I'm curious what the process is like for fact-checking. Obviously if you are writing a location peice, you'll want to know the history and geography and all that. But when it comes to things like technology, computing, science, medicine, guns... well lets just say there is a healthy dose of "fiction" in SR's "science fiction". [edit]Granted, this is necessary when you're writing a game that is supposed to be fun for lay people.[/edit] But, in these cases how much does fact-checking factor in? (I know some hard-liners around here would say it doesn't).

At any rate, I'm sure you could find every kind of expert around here to fact-check on a free-lance, pdf-paid or volunteer basis. I volunteered to do fact-checking for free back when Rob, Pete and the crew were working on Augmentation, but they never took me up on the offer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[LurkerOutThere]

The part in SR development seemingly not working right is the business part, right? So replace it - the upcoming license renewal from Topps could be a windfall.

Someone with business sense needs to make a proposal to Topps. Does Jennifer Harding have the needed long breath and punctuality?
I didn't like her SR writing a lot, but she seems to have an eye for financial work and she also seems to possess integrity. She'll need AH and Adam J. to handle editing, fact checking and layout. Probably one more person for editing work.

If you think this is a total bull idea, why do you? Could it be changed to work?

Edit: Changed my mind. But for a number of reasons Jennifer is unsuitable for the task, the biggest and most glaring being she is no longer with the company.

[BishopMcQ]

Lurker--Jennifer was hired to be the bookkeeper for CGL in late 2009.

[LurkerOutThere]

Bishop

In hindsite my comments were spurious and I have redacted them accordingly. If I jump on other people for unfounded speculation I should not indulge in it myself.

[Bull]

Yes, please be careful with accusations on a personal level regarding the staff and legal situations. There's a fine line between accusations and slander.

Bull

[LurkerOutThere]

Duly noted, now on a completely seperate issue: check yer' damn email. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Cergorach]

Well as long as we're throwing around unsubstantiated rumors she was the one who hit the shoots right before this all went public, as accounting manager she should have been the first to know that such considerable sums were missing. Maybe she was and kept quiet for her own completely appropriate reasons or maybe she saw the winds change at last and pulled the rip cord before any mismanagement deserved or otherwise splashed on her.

Or, she was promoted to the position quite recently, went to work on the mess, a few months later came to the conclusion that money was missing and the payments to the freelancers where a mess. She proposed certain things that needed to change and things that needed to be done, her ideas were not implemented, not implemented fast enough, or to her satisfaction, so she quit. One of the CGL guys had already posted she did nothing wrong, and the mess started quite a while before she took over.

As for 'fact checking', we're talking about games that include dragons and 100-ton two legged walking robots, there's going to be holes in the 'facts'. The question becomes whether or not the setting as a whole is enjoyable to a large public. The semi-tech prattle is part what makes SR/BT enjoyable. Going to far with the tech prattle is only enjoyable for a relatively small (but vocal) part of the customer base.

[Bull]

Duly noted, now on a completely seperate issue: check yer' damn email. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I was out playing D&D all day yesterday, I've been in a Freelancer meeting all morning, and I've got SHadowrun tonight. Sorry (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'll be dealing with that late tonight or tomorrow. This weekend has not been filled with free time for me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But I did get it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bull

[Doc Byte]

I'm curious what the process is like for fact-checking. Obviously if you are writing a location peice, you'll want to know the history and geography and all that. But when it comes to things like technology, computing, science, medicine, guns... well lets just say there is a healthy dose of "fiction" in SR's "science fiction". [edit]Granted, this is necessary when you're writing a game that is supposed to be fun for lay people.[/edit] But, in these cases how much does fact-checking factor in? (I know some hard-liners around here would say it doesn't).

Fact-checking's needed to avoid inconsistencies within the setting. And 21 years of SR have amassed tons of bits of 'facts'. Someone has to ensure for example that no Lone Star cops in bright green uniforms show up somewhere waving their 'Ares Manhunters' around.

[Bull]

As for 'fact checking', we're talking about games that include dragons and 100-ton two legged walking robots, there's going to be holes in the 'facts'. The question becomes whether or not the setting as a whole is enjoyable to a large public. The semi-tech prattle is part what makes SR/BT enjoyable. Going to far with the tech prattle is only enjoyable for a relatively small (but vocal) part of the customer base.

Amen. THis is one area I feel Shadowrun has been very "weak" in lately, and one area SR4 fell flat. SR got too grounded in "Realism" and the modern world, and in the process has lost some of the "fantasy" that made it such a rich, unique, and fun world to play in. It's slowly moved away from it's 80's cyberpunk roots, but that move has been more toward modernism and realism. Which I think grounds the fantasy too much for some folks.

As soemone who's becoming more active in the freelancer pool again after too many years dormant, I'm hoping I can help reawaken some of that fantastic. Shadowrun needs to find it's voice again. And IMO, that voice says "Frag" and "Drek" and "Chummer" a lot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

[Bull]

Fact-checking's needed to avoid inconsistencies within the setting. And 21 years of SR have amassed tons of bits of 'facts'. Someone has to ensure for example that no Lone Star cops in bright green uniforms show up somewhere waving their 'Ares Manhunters' around.

Agreed, but that's editorial consistency as opposed to worrying about comparing SR nanotechnology to real life nanotech theory. YOu can base it in realism, but I firmly believe that 95% of Shadowrun players, if not more, are mroe familiar with and more accepting of "Movie Nanites" and "real life theoretical Nanites". And that applies across the board.

However, this discussion has drifted a fair bit off topic, and should probably go to a new thread if you guys want to continue it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

[kzt]

I'm curious what the process is like for fact-checking. Obviously if you are writing a location peice, you'll want to know the history and geography and all that. But when it comes to things like technology, computing, science, medicine, guns... well lets just say there is a healthy dose of "fiction" in SR's "science fiction". [edit]Granted, this is necessary when you're writing a game that is supposed to be fun for lay people.[/edit] But, in these cases how much does fact-checking factor in? (I know some hard-liners around here would say it doesn't).

The requirement is that books be consistent with each other. "Scientific accuracy" isn't the objective, it's to have the tech and magic work the same in all the novels, rules and adventures. It would be kind of nice if the person doing this understood how to use a dictionary to look up the meaning of velocity.... but I digress.

[Kid Chameleon]

If CGL is pulling the books due to 'negotiations' with freelancers, I'm curious why no BT books were pulled. IMHO it's:
1.) The SR freelancers pulled together and made a very compelling argument to CGL (pay us or stop selling, if not face legal action?).
2.) The BT freelancers aren't as cohesive a group (or not yet anyway).
3.) The BT freelancers do get payed on time (maybe BT is doing financially better?).

Oh we're all pretty far behind, but requesting books to be pulled isn't going to get us paid any faster. I've actually requested I get moved to the bottom of the list, I don't need the money like some of the other folks do. I figure I can either quit or keep soldiering on, with the company learning from its mistakes and getting better or going ker-poof. Of course, BattleTech has had two line developers in the past decade with a nice transition. ShadowRun...not so much. I hope Hardy gets time to show he can do a great job there.

[Prime Mover]

Amen. THis is one area I feel Shadowrun has been very "weak" in lately, and one area SR4 fell flat. SR got too grounded in "Realism" and the modern world, and in the process has lost some of the "fantasy" that made it such a rich, unique, and fun world to play in. It's slowly moved away from it's 80's cyberpunk roots, but that move has been more toward modernism and realism. Which I think grounds the fantasy too much for some folks.

As soemone who's becoming more active in the freelancer pool again after too many years dormant, I'm hoping I can help reawaken some of that fantastic. Shadowrun needs to find it's voice again. And IMO, that voice says "Frag" and "Drek" and "Chummer" a lot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

I hate to contribute the the off topic bits but I've never been able to put my finger on it but after reading your statement I think thats what I've been pondering about as well. For me anyways I agree with the too grounded in reality statement.

[Adam]

Two issues I see. One, there's still no line developer in the group of people you listed. I mean, I'm sure some of them could do the job (though I'd wonder that AH or Adam certainly haven't shown any interest in pursuing such a position when it has opened up several times in the last few years), but just that you didn't list one. A line developer would definitely be needed for project management and cat-herding.

With all due respect ... you wouldn't know if I expressed any interest in such a job, because you aren't me, you didn't work at Catalyst, and you aren't one of my close friends that I would have confided in while making such a decision. I did handle development on one title last year -- Seattle 2072 -- and I also contributed, development- and planning-wise, to many other Shadowrun titles [some of which I am sad that I did not get to see through to their publication, but that's the way the cookie crumbled...]

[Bull]

With all due respect ... you wouldn't know if I expressed any interest in such a job, because you aren't me, you didn't work at Catalyst, and you aren't one of my close friends that I would have confided in while making such a decision. I did handle development on one title last year -- Seattle 2072 -- and I also contributed, development- and planning-wise, to many other Shadowrun titles [some of which I am sad that I did not get to see through to their publication, but that's the way the cookie crumbled...]

*hugs Adam*

I, for one, am going to miss our diminutive, Canuckian, white-Jesus looking Overlord.

Bull

[Centurion13]

Of course not.

Recall that I did not storm out and give Dumpshock the finger. The mods gave me the finger and told me in no uncertain terms that they did not want me here. As you can see Here, Bull made it quite clear that he did not want me posting analysis of things whether I was insulting anyone or not. Yes, I got my account suspended for, in a "General Gaming" discussion about 4e D&D, explaining that Rogue/Wizard was not a supported archetype - which is even design intent according to the makers of that game (as Rogue and Wizard are different "roles," have different primary and secondary stats, and mandatorily use different implements). That suspension came with an exceedingly unpleasant PM from Bull. I quit the board completely, and when I came back to drop a link to the fan-made Shadowrun board game that I was distributing for free at he time, I was again sent a load of nasty grams from the mods about how they would be "watching me closely" and that if I did anything even slightly provocative that they would ban me permanently. There is, explicitly and by design - no place for me on Dumpshock.

Which of course is why I was selected to come forward about the monetary irregularities. It was, and still is, figured that whoever came forward would have a very real chance of having their account banned, of being lambasted as a traitor, of never being trusted to write for Shadowrun again (even if the problems get addressed), and so on. And I could weather all that, because I already had my falling out, years ago. Whether I get banned or not doesn't matter, because there is already no place for me in Dumpshock. Whether I get backlisted from writing more material or not doesn't matter, because I'm already blacklisted. Amongst all of the writers past and present, I'm safe. So I can go forward and be the guy who spills the beans. I can be the big jerk, because everyone knows that I'm a well known crackpot.

There is a very substantial chance that the way forward for Shadowrun will be to form a new company and have that company get the license when it comes up for renewal in 2 months. We've done it before. Twice before. So it's hardly unthinkable. If that turns out to be the solution, things will go smoother if that gets established as early as possible - which means that shining a light on the problem now is likely the best way to get the license issues settled quickly when it matters in May. Remember, InMediaRes LLC is not a person. It's a legal entity. A limited liability corporation. It also does not own Shadowrun, it is merely a license holder. If IMR LLC cannot get its ducks in a row in the very short amount of time before the license comes up, the correct course of action is to create a new legal entity separate from those problems, and then have the people who have financial interests in the IMR fallout continue those deliberations separately from Shadowrun's continuation. There is no shame in that, it's just a corporate shell game. But if it is going to happen, it has to happen soon, and that means getting the ball rolling soon. And if that means airing dirty laundry, of being banned from Dumpshock "for real this time" - then so be it.

I'm still an opinionated jerk, that hasn't changed. I have strong opinions about what was done right and what was done wrong. And what could be done better. But none of that is actually important if people are collectively afraid to come forward about the financial elephant in the room and the license is allowed to expire without a backup plan for Shadowrun generally. I don't always agree with the direction Shadowrun has been taken. I have had lots of disagreements with many of the past and current producers. But I want Shadowrun to be taken in a direction. And that means first blowing the whistle, and secondly it means coming down heavily on people who spout fallacious reactionary nonsense about how we should regress the genuinely positive improvements that Rob made when we first moved to SR4.

But mostly it means stepping aside again. Before I get my account banned "for real this time" of course, but also because there is no place for me at Dumpshock. And unfortunately, I've done all I can to make sure Shadowrun continues.

-Frank

Thank you for clearing this up. I know nothing about you and do not play the game SR, but am currently involved in a fan project for BT. I rather thought this might be the case when I read your original post. The examples you chose are too close in profile to what I have personally observed in corrupt people and organizations, and at the same time just too odd and lumpy, to be anything but the truth. Or at least a damned health dose of it.

I have posited on my blog and elsewhere that CGL would not have come out with their eleventh-hour apologia if you had not posted. I also feel fairly positive that bad things would have eventually been attributed to the folks who bailed - the sacrificial lamb is a time-honored tradition and useful besides. But outing the laundry put paid to that, and I thank you for turning over the rock.

Even the most dedicated among us has to admit the emperor is lookin' kinda nekkid, right now.

{later entry} I note with interest that David Stansel-Garner, Jennifer and Adam all bailed about the same time. S-G is the former Operations Manager. At the risk of exposing my ignorance, wouldn't it be interesting if these three coincidentally happened to be the core of what was needed to form another company which could nail down the SR and BT license?

Huh.

Cent13

This post has been edited by Centurion13: Mar 21 2010, 07:44 PM