The Great CGL Rumors and Speculation Thread Options

[Prime Mover]

Amen. THis is one area I feel Shadowrun has been very "weak" in lately, and one area SR4 fell flat. SR got too grounded in "Realism" and the modern world, and in the process has lost some of the "fantasy" that made it such a rich, unique, and fun world to play in. It's slowly moved away from it's 80's cyberpunk roots, but that move has been more toward modernism and realism. Which I think grounds the fantasy too much for some folks.

As soemone who's becoming more active in the freelancer pool again after too many years dormant, I'm hoping I can help reawaken some of that fantastic. Shadowrun needs to find it's voice again. And IMO, that voice says "Frag" and "Drek" and "Chummer" a lot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

I hate to contribute the the off topic bits but I've never been able to put my finger on it but after reading your statement I think thats what I've been pondering about as well. For me anyways I agree with the too grounded in reality statement.

[Adam]

Two issues I see. One, there's still no line developer in the group of people you listed. I mean, I'm sure some of them could do the job (though I'd wonder that AH or Adam certainly haven't shown any interest in pursuing such a position when it has opened up several times in the last few years), but just that you didn't list one. A line developer would definitely be needed for project management and cat-herding.

With all due respect ... you wouldn't know if I expressed any interest in such a job, because you aren't me, you didn't work at Catalyst, and you aren't one of my close friends that I would have confided in while making such a decision. I did handle development on one title last year -- Seattle 2072 -- and I also contributed, development- and planning-wise, to many other Shadowrun titles [some of which I am sad that I did not get to see through to their publication, but that's the way the cookie crumbled...]

[Bull]

With all due respect ... you wouldn't know if I expressed any interest in such a job, because you aren't me, you didn't work at Catalyst, and you aren't one of my close friends that I would have confided in while making such a decision. I did handle development on one title last year -- Seattle 2072 -- and I also contributed, development- and planning-wise, to many other Shadowrun titles [some of which I am sad that I did not get to see through to their publication, but that's the way the cookie crumbled...]

*hugs Adam*

I, for one, am going to miss our diminutive, Canuckian, white-Jesus looking Overlord.

Bull

[Centurion13]

Of course not.

Recall that I did not storm out and give Dumpshock the finger. The mods gave me the finger and told me in no uncertain terms that they did not want me here. As you can see Here, Bull made it quite clear that he did not want me posting analysis of things whether I was insulting anyone or not. Yes, I got my account suspended for, in a "General Gaming" discussion about 4e D&D, explaining that Rogue/Wizard was not a supported archetype - which is even design intent according to the makers of that game (as Rogue and Wizard are different "roles," have different primary and secondary stats, and mandatorily use different implements). That suspension came with an exceedingly unpleasant PM from Bull. I quit the board completely, and when I came back to drop a link to the fan-made Shadowrun board game that I was distributing for free at he time, I was again sent a load of nasty grams from the mods about how they would be "watching me closely" and that if I did anything even slightly provocative that they would ban me permanently. There is, explicitly and by design - no place for me on Dumpshock.

Which of course is why I was selected to come forward about the monetary irregularities. It was, and still is, figured that whoever came forward would have a very real chance of having their account banned, of being lambasted as a traitor, of never being trusted to write for Shadowrun again (even if the problems get addressed), and so on. And I could weather all that, because I already had my falling out, years ago. Whether I get banned or not doesn't matter, because there is already no place for me in Dumpshock. Whether I get backlisted from writing more material or not doesn't matter, because I'm already blacklisted. Amongst all of the writers past and present, I'm safe. So I can go forward and be the guy who spills the beans. I can be the big jerk, because everyone knows that I'm a well known crackpot.

There is a very substantial chance that the way forward for Shadowrun will be to form a new company and have that company get the license when it comes up for renewal in 2 months. We've done it before. Twice before. So it's hardly unthinkable. If that turns out to be the solution, things will go smoother if that gets established as early as possible - which means that shining a light on the problem now is likely the best way to get the license issues settled quickly when it matters in May. Remember, InMediaRes LLC is not a person. It's a legal entity. A limited liability corporation. It also does not own Shadowrun, it is merely a license holder. If IMR LLC cannot get its ducks in a row in the very short amount of time before the license comes up, the correct course of action is to create a new legal entity separate from those problems, and then have the people who have financial interests in the IMR fallout continue those deliberations separately from Shadowrun's continuation. There is no shame in that, it's just a corporate shell game. But if it is going to happen, it has to happen soon, and that means getting the ball rolling soon. And if that means airing dirty laundry, of being banned from Dumpshock "for real this time" - then so be it.

I'm still an opinionated jerk, that hasn't changed. I have strong opinions about what was done right and what was done wrong. And what could be done better. But none of that is actually important if people are collectively afraid to come forward about the financial elephant in the room and the license is allowed to expire without a backup plan for Shadowrun generally. I don't always agree with the direction Shadowrun has been taken. I have had lots of disagreements with many of the past and current producers. But I want Shadowrun to be taken in a direction. And that means first blowing the whistle, and secondly it means coming down heavily on people who spout fallacious reactionary nonsense about how we should regress the genuinely positive improvements that Rob made when we first moved to SR4.

But mostly it means stepping aside again. Before I get my account banned "for real this time" of course, but also because there is no place for me at Dumpshock. And unfortunately, I've done all I can to make sure Shadowrun continues.

-Frank

Thank you for clearing this up. I know nothing about you and do not play the game SR, but am currently involved in a fan project for BT. I rather thought this might be the case when I read your original post. The examples you chose are too close in profile to what I have personally observed in corrupt people and organizations, and at the same time just too odd and lumpy, to be anything but the truth. Or at least a damned health dose of it.

I have posited on my blog and elsewhere that CGL would not have come out with their eleventh-hour apologia if you had not posted. I also feel fairly positive that bad things would have eventually been attributed to the folks who bailed - the sacrificial lamb is a time-honored tradition and useful besides. But outing the laundry put paid to that, and I thank you for turning over the rock.

Even the most dedicated among us has to admit the emperor is lookin' kinda nekkid, right now.

{later entry} I note with interest that David Stansel-Garner, Jennifer and Adam all bailed about the same time. S-G is the former Operations Manager. At the risk of exposing my ignorance, wouldn't it be interesting if these three coincidentally happened to be the core of what was needed to form another company which could nail down the SR and BT license?

Huh.

Cent13

This post has been edited by Centurion13: Mar 21 2010, 07:44 PM

[Cergorach]

Even the most dedicated among us has to admit the emperor is lookin' kinda nekkid, right now.

*Looks at Emperor Bull* Argh! My eyes!!!

[Adam]

{later entry} I note with interest that David Stansel-Garner, Jennifer and Jason all bailed about the same time.

Jason Hardy is still with Catalyst!

[BlueMax]

Jason Hardy is still with Catalyst!

INDEED! Posting in this thread and in his native environs , the battletech forums.

Where I suggest you avoid. They take a low opinion of runners over there...

BlueMax
/I got friends in low places
// where we drown the marks
/// and the Star chases

[Centurion13]

Jason Hardy is still with Catalyst!

Agreed. I fixed the entry in error.

Cent13

[Patrick Goodman]

*Looks at Emperor Bull* Argh! My eyes!!!

This cannot be unseen....

[hobgoblin]

Amen. THis is one area I feel Shadowrun has been very "weak" in lately, and one area SR4 fell flat. SR got too grounded in "Realism" and the modern world, and in the process has lost some of the "fantasy" that made it such a rich, unique, and fun world to play in. It's slowly moved away from it's 80's cyberpunk roots, but that move has been more toward modernism and realism. Which I think grounds the fantasy too much for some folks.

i think i read a claim once that said that people need their real to be very real for them to accept the fantasy elements at face value.

[Centurion13]

This cannot be unseen....

It was no error. S' Okay, I hear CGL has some brain bleach left over from their own forums....

Cent13

[Patrick Goodman]

It was no error. S' Okay, I hear CGL has some brain bleach left over from their own forums....

I hope you won't object if I take a pass on that one....

[Method]

I note with interest that David Stansel-Garner, Jennifer and Adam all bailed about the same time. S-G is the former Operations Manager. At the risk of exposing my ignorance, wouldn't it be interesting if these three coincidentally happened to be the core of what was needed to form another company which could nail down the SR and BT license?

Well I wasn't going to say it...

[Dwight]

*Looks at Emperor Bull* Argh! My eyes!!!

On the plus side you now know why his name isn't Steer......

[Method]

i think i read a claim once that said that people need their real to be very real for them to accept the fantasy elements at face value.

At this risk of invoking the wrath of the topical gods (i.e.- Bull), I think this is true to some extent. If we wanted pure fantasy we'd play something else (like DnD). Part of what makes science fiction different is an internal logic that is sometimes missing in SR. I'm not saying I want a technical manual (because that would suck) but I think things could be done better and still be fun.

And to get closer to my point (which maybe wasn't clear, but in my defense *was* on topic): fact-checking need not be a drain on resources for CGL or a fledgling game company- there are plenty of smart people around here that would love to contribute, many for free.

[Penta]

Amen. THis is one area I feel Shadowrun has been very "weak" in lately, and one area SR4 fell flat. SR got too grounded in "Realism" and the modern world, and in the process has lost some of the "fantasy" that made it such a rich, unique, and fun world to play in. It's slowly moved away from it's 80's cyberpunk roots, but that move has been more toward modernism and realism. Which I think grounds the fantasy too much for some folks.

As soemone who's becoming more active in the freelancer pool again after too many years dormant, I'm hoping I can help reawaken some of that fantastic. Shadowrun needs to find it's voice again. And IMO, that voice says "Frag" and "Drek" and "Chummer" a lot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

I'm going to disagree here. Maybe because of my age, but...80s anything just screams old to me, Bull. It's the stuff from when I was 5. The fake slang never totally worked or felt natural - the fake swears felt like false modesty even when I first read SR2 when I was 11. (I recall saying to my brother something along the lines of "I wish they'd just swear already.") Pink mohawks have always been ugly to me, hell, mohawks generally strike me as ugly.

If Shadowrun has changed, to me, that's a good thing...Because what Shadowrun tends to reflect uncannily is our fears. Sometimes not so uncannily, but sometimes in cases of "before we even know it, SR is screaming the alarm of a possible outcome". Usually, I should note, without explicitly tring to.

Re the Fantasy in what I'll judiciously call Shadowrun's blend of sci-fi and fantasy...All things can work, in moderation. I think bringing back the IEs would be a bad idea, but hey. That doesn't mean more exploration into magic would be a bad thing.

[kzt]

i think i read a claim once that said that people need their real to be very real for them to accept the fantasy elements at face value.

The readers/players are predisposed to accept whatever premise you are making, but it's a lot harder if the writers blow basic stuff. For example, if you are writing a story in Salt Lake City and portray the Mormons as pacifists who hate guns, and you also don't know that Provo is were BYU is located you are starting off deep in a credibility hole, so the rest of what you write has got to be astonishingly cool.


Holly Lisle:
"5. You only get one 'gimme' so don't waste it.

"In a world with magic, magic is your 'gimme' - the one thing about which your reader will unquestioningly suspend disbelief ... so if you really want to tell a story that uses faster-than-light spaceships, you need to drop the magic."


It's not 100% true, "Five-Twelfths of Heaven" is an example done well of someone violating it, but in general she's right and you have be really good to make multiple crazy things work at once. Don't ask the reader to accept too many things on faith at once.

[Adam]

Fact checking and other proofreading takes time and effort even if it's done by volunteers [which it has been, recently] -- not only because they simply need time to go over things properly, but then someone with thorough knowledge needs to go through all of the suggestions and vet them.

Volunteer fact checking and proofing can make for better books, but it's not magic pixie dust, and it's not "free."

[Enin]

I'm going to disagree here. Maybe because of my age, but...80s anything just screams old to me, Bull. It's the stuff from when I was 5. The fake slang never totally worked or felt natural - the fake swears felt like false modesty even when I first read SR2 when I was 11. (I recall saying to my brother something along the lines of "I wish they'd just swear already.") Pink mohawks have always been ugly to me, hell, mohawks generally strike me as ugly.

If Shadowrun has changed, to me, that's a good thing...Because what Shadowrun tends to reflect uncannily is our fears. Sometimes not so uncannily, but sometimes in cases of "before we even know it, SR is screaming the alarm of a possible outcome". Usually, I should note, without explicitly tring to.

Re the Fantasy in what I'll judiciously call Shadowrun's blend of sci-fi and fantasy...All things can work, in moderation. I think bringing back the IEs would be a bad idea, but hey. That doesn't mean more exploration into magic would be a bad thing.

And here we see the generation gap at work....

"Well back in my day...."

[Penta]

And here we see the generation gap at work....

"Well back in my day...."

...I'm not an old fogey, I'm only 26.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[SecGuard]

INDEED! Posting in this thread and in his native environs , the battletech forums.

Where I suggest you avoid. They take a low opinion of runners over there...

BlueMax
/I got friends in low places
// where we drown the marks
/// and the Star chases

Hey, not all of us who live on the BTech forums are that bad.

[Dwight]

The fabricated slang had the same problems that drove the change to anachronistic slang being used in the Deadwood series rather than the real cussing of the time. Accuracy to reality, and the vernacular swearing and slang will almost certainly be different in 50 years, is something very different from verisimilitude. Plus people "knew damn well" (whether it was true or not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) that it was a dodge around censoring and weren't buying it.

Some times you can pull it off (see Firefly for an example) but ironically even there they are actual contemporary swear words, just in a different language. Most of the time it doesn't work, though. The path from today's language to that fabricated slang wasn't apparent, enough.

[Patrick Goodman]

...I'm not an old fogey, I'm only 26.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But I am (relatively speaking; I'll be 44 in a couple weeks). I'm not so convinced as Bull that we need "drek" and "chummer" to make comebacks, but to an extent, I think getting some of the older feel would help my feelings about SR4, which are not altogether positive (though using real swearing feels more real to me...what this says about me is open to debate).

[zephir]

Dear Freelancers:
I have read accusations of "unprofessionality" in the CBT-forums, I think some of you have, too. I think you did the right thing. Your whistleblowing was apparent for any future employers when CGL had to make their first press release. And a good employer will like that. Perhaps you want to take screenshots of that press release.

I think you have shown a lot of patience and tried hard to find constructive solutions to this mess. I assume you did not press for payment for a long time because you thought SR was not making enough money and did not want to endanger the game's economic future. And then you found out about these bad business practices (nicest term I could find)... Frank Trollman's post was exactly right to bring this to light. Hopefully this will warn away the more intelligent in the next freelancer generation and punish these short-sighted business practices, in the long term hopefully getting the IP to a better developer. Some might think this hiatus is bad for SR, I console myself with the well-playable editions we already have.
Thank you!

[knasser]

i think i read a claim once that said that people need their real to be very real for them to accept the fantasy elements at face value.

Might have been me. I'm fond of saying that the presence of elves and dragons doesn't make realism less important in Shadowrun, it makes it more important. But kzt already said it better. A game setting like Shadowrun gets to say "this is our world but different bceause of X". If X becomes X, Y, Z and AA, then you no longer get to say "this is our world but..." You're just saying: "here's an arbitrary setting". That's my strong feeling anyway.

As regards this...

Amen. THis is one area I feel Shadowrun has been very "weak" in lately, and one area SR4 fell flat. SR got too grounded in "Realism" and the modern world, and in the process has lost some of the "fantasy" that made it such a rich, unique, and fun world to play in. It's slowly moved away from it's 80's cyberpunk roots, but that move has been more toward modernism and realism. Which I think grounds the fantasy too much for some folks.

As soemone who's becoming more active in the freelancer pool again after too many years dormant, I'm hoping I can help reawaken some of that fantastic. Shadowrun needs to find it's voice again. And IMO, that voice says "Frag" and "Drek" and "Chummer" a lot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

I think I'd probably just get immensely alienated by this. I do remember the Eighties. I didn't think they were cool at the time and they haven't become more so by being a quarter of a century old. They were the decade when people wore giant shoulder pads and pretended to be moody. We got a handful of good music and a lot of tunes that sounded like a piano farting through a computer synthesizer. I wish I'd been a teenager in the 90's - they were much more fun. Yes, there were raves in the Eighties where you got to dance like crazy in a field until the police shooed you away and everyone was taking Ecstacy so a kid who didn't drink alcohol wasn't such a freak for once, but that's not the culture that Shadowrun was emulating. Cyberpunk is dead - why? Because it happened and we didn't care. Computers did take over - and we love them. Giant businesses shot across international borders and most of us didn't get crushed beneath their heel (at least in the West), we said "Woah! Job opportunities" and rushed to write our CVs. We no longer regard technology as some alien force that will crush our soles (well I never did, but that was part of the cyberpunk ethos), we think technology rocks and we look forward to how it could transform us. 4th Edition gets that - it's still dark and dystopian, but it's not all melodramatic about it. The Eighties 1st Edition Street Samurai is a bleak soul that has traded his body for intrusive technology that gives him power in exchange for his humanity. His 2010 4th Edition descendent is an superhuman parkour assassin who revels in all his cool toys. Cyberpunk has no edginess, it's just kind of... quaint?

The Eighties produced the Terminator movie and Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. And Bill and Ted won.

K.