The Great CGL Rumors and Speculation Thread Options

[Demonseed Elite]

QFT. I'm trying to move Shadowrun forward, but I know plenty of mistakes have been made that shouldn't have happened. However, I should point out that I wouldn't be still trying to move forward if I did not think people were working to address those mistakes.

Jason H.

And I would like to believe those mistakes are being addressed on a long-term basis (and not just as an short-term fix), but I've been involved with three Shadowrun license holders now and I've heard that exact statement a few times already, including from Catalyst years ago.

[emouse]

RE: Ancient's quote from the WildFire site

That would seem to fall into the slow-to-print issues that CGL has had for a while now, which is possibly related to what has been going on with their finances? The post is not specific; the 'renegotiations' could involve some sort of withholding by WF to get CGL to pay on something, or it could involve WF trying to get CGL to up the print run or reprint certain material beyond whatever existing contract might exist.

The notice was posted March 11th, another sign that the issue in question might have been known about and was being dealt with well before being made public?

[JM Hardy]

And I would like to believe those mistakes are being addressed on a long-term basis (and not just as an short-term fix), but I've been involved with three Shadowrun license holders now and I've heard that exact statement a few times already, including from Catalyst years ago.

I can't dispute that, unfortunately. Mistakes have been made by various license holders. As I mentioned earlier, the only proof of how the new processes will work will be what happens next. If Catalyst cannot get its house in order and cannot pay freelancers, it will deserve what it gets, and what it gets will not be good.

Jason H.

[nezumi]

Really, either path is a gamble.

Stick with CGL, who so far has shown itself to be of questionable integrity, and who has lost the loyalty of some of the best writers Shadowrun ever had. IF they right their boat, they're going to be taking on a lot more freelancers to fill out the ranks. What quality will their work be? That depends a lot on management and the line developer. We're gambling they'll keep more or less the same view as has been established. CGL has made some good products. I don't normally consider buying books for an edition of a game I don't play, but the CGL products look to have been good stuff. But with this turnover, past performance is not a dependable indicator of future performance.

Move to someone else and... well, even a bigger gamble. I don't totally understand the Topps/Fan Pro relationship, but Fan Pro has taken good care of us. Would they sell to Hasbro? Would they hold onto it for some little new guy? (CGL was a 'little new guy' when it acquired Shadowrun - but it advertised a lot of passion for the brand name, which it held to.) If they sell it to someone else, I think we can bet on a new edition in 2011/2012. If it's new management, maybe a few of the older freelancers will come back/follow along (I don't know AH personally, but from what I've seen of his work, Shadowrun is in his blood, and he couldn't stay away for long, and I think Bull "comes with" the property (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ). But what would fifth edition look like? It almost certainly will take another step away from SR3, and won't be like SR4. It'll be... different. Good different or bad is still just a toss of the dice.


Choose between the evil you know or the evil you don't. Looking at the odds though, CGL seems to be the safer bet.

[MindandPen]

Really, either path is a gamble.

[-- SNIP --]

Choose between the evil you know or the evil you don't. Looking at the odds though, CGL seems to be the safer bet.

Personally, I'd rather see CGL pull it off.

I can't dispute that, unfortunately. Mistakes have been made by various license holders. As I mentioned earlier, the only proof of how the new processes will work will be what happens next. If Catalyst cannot get its house in order and cannot pay freelancers, it will deserve what it gets, and what it gets will not be good.

@Jason
You are correct. At least you guys know what the situation is, as far as the fans are concerned, and you are trying to move forward. While I know you can not control the ownership, I think that a greater accounting for the situation that lead up to $850,000 missing would be a good thing. In this case, I think heads need to roll as well.

[Sengir]

And yes, 850.000$ is no small amount of cash, but I imagine any corp financially big enough that you can actually take 850.000$ WITHOUT ANYONE NOTICING may not be THAT bad off.

If "a significant balance" in company money can go missing without anyone moticing, either through bad bookkeeping or plain theft, the company DOES have a significant problem. And not just a monetary one.

[JM Hardy]

@Jason
You are correct. At least you guys know what the situation is, as far as the fans are concerned, and you are trying to move forward. While I know you can not control the ownership, I think that a greater accounting for the situation that lead up to $850,000 missing would be a good thing. In this case, I think heads need to roll as well.

First, let me just say that I am totally not in a position to say anything about any dollar amounts, and nothing I say should be taken as any sort of commentary, one way or another, on those numbers.

Second, Catalyst is a privately owned company, meaning there will be activities that will not take place in the public eye. For many reasons, businesses tend to keep their financial info and other business matters private, and that's going to be the case here. The owners, however, need a greater amount of info about the whole situation, and I am told that have been and will continue to receive it. Others involved with Catalyst have also been provided with additional information about the situation, what is happening next, and why management has made some of the decisions they are making.

What people will do in response to this information is their decision. What more comes out to the public is not my decision--management will continue working on official communications as the situation progresses.

Jason H.

[tete]

Where did you get that info? Over the weekend WildFire had a very 'wait and see' attitude.

Or is this conflating the partially incorrect ICV2 news item that CGL responded to and ICV2 ended up pulling?

Edit: And has since been reposed with more correct information and CGL's response to the original, "there has been no halt to sales of any Cthulhu Tech products."

Off a link on RPG.net, I'm assuming the info has been updated seeing how I read it on Saturday and I cant get rpg.net at work. As of Saturday they were considering legal action if necessary, but it sounds like they are working it out with CGL now. Its just pointing to that it would appear that CGL has problems paying people on time PERIOD. Not just Shadowrun freelancers. Maybe they don't have the money but all in all it looks grim to always pay your bills late.

[The Monk]

Its just pointing to that it would appear that CGL has problems paying people on time PERIOD. Not just Shadowrun freelancers. Maybe they don't have the money but all in all it looks grim to always pay your bills late.

Telling your employees to keep working, they'll get paid when the company makes a little money is one thing. Saying that and "accidentally" making hundreds of thousands of dollars while people working for you are tightening their belts is outrageous (if in fact that is what's happened).

I hope when all of this settles down, the owners have the guts to come on here, if not to explain themselves then just to get an ear full from the fans.

[hobgoblin]

Begins to make you think that Frank was right all along, eh?

scares the crap out of me.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Who says that whoever gets the license has any interest in working with the former freelancers?

It's been that way when FASA caved in and FanPro, a former sub-licensee, took over. It's been that way when FanPro caved in and CGL took over. Sure – not everyone continued marching on.

Who says they're not going to gut the game and remake it in some horrible image.

While I'm not an entirely big fan with the german additions or changes under FanPro and even acknowledging that some of the people (the nicer ones) from FanPro now work at Pegasus – it didn't ruin Shadowrun.

Sure, I might not like the changes in layout design or the covers (and, honestly – there are people hating the original covers even more) – but it's far from "some horrible image".

THere's no guarantee anyone will even pick up the license.

There is no guarantee for nothing. On the other hand, history seems repeating itself, so I'm considering the likelihood that Pegasus stops being a sub-licensee and becoming the main licensee quite more than "slighty bigger" than "very slim."

[emouse]

Off a link on RPG.net, I'm assuming the info has been updated seeing how I read it on Saturday and I cant get rpg.net at work.

Such info was probably originating from the WildFire board, where their head has posted a few things in response. It mainly adds up to WildFire is keeping their options open, currently willing to continue to work with Catalyst and in negotiations with them, but also considering other options to continue CT as a product if their relationship with CGL is not resolved satisfactorily.

[Bull]

It's been that way when FASA caved in and FanPro, a former sub-licensee, took over. It's been that way when FanPro caved in and CGL took over. Sure – not everyone continued marching on.

While I'm not an entirely big fan with the german additions or changes under FanPro and even acknowledging that some of the people (the nicer ones) from FanPro now work at Pegasus – it didn't ruin Shadowrun.

Sure, I might not like the changes in layout design or the covers (and, honestly – there are people hating the original covers even more) – but it's far from "some horrible image".

There is no guarantee for nothing. On the other hand, history seems repeating itself, so I'm considering the likelihood that Pegasus stops being a sub-licensee and becoming the main licensee quite more than "slighty bigger" than "very slim."

Here's the thing to keep in mind in both cases though... WHen the properties were licensed, the staff had already been in place. It was a staff of folks who had worked with the previous company extentsivly. CGL pretty much just brought over all of FanPro LLC when they got it, for example. There was some change, but by and large the chain of people working on Shadowrun has been unbroken despite the changes in companies.

Of course, that could potentially happen yet again if, somehow, everyone who left got together to form a new company and were able to raise enough captial to start up a publishing business and acquire he license. But chances seem somewhat slim on that front.

Bull

[hobgoblin]

or they get hired on by the new licensee. Right now anything can happen.

[emouse]

Of course, that could potentially happen yet again if, somehow, everyone who left got together to form a new company and were able to raise enough captial to start up a publishing business and acquire he license. But chances seem somewhat slim on that front.

It sounded like some of the people who left are/were already part of a new-ish company, Posthuman Studios.

[otakusensei]

The last book, Vice, had a street date of February 23rd. So it wasn't that long ago, and I know people in Catalyst are working to get it back on the streets as soon as possible.

Jason H.

Jason, it's pretty clear now that the slow pace of publishing at CGL had something to with the criminal actions of company members. Money was being made, but that money was not going to fuel new publication at an efficient rate. Like parasites in a body. We all wondered about it, speculated about it. Watched the line of developers change seats until you found yourself there. I have friend who want to buy books and a store owner who was devastated to hear about this issue at CGL. He's a new player and now he's wondering if he should even carry your products, both out of ethical concerns and the effort of promoting a product that has been so mishandled.

You've been doing spin over the last few days. Do us a favor and stop. I know you want to keep positive about this, that doing so is a part of your job. But you aren't going to be in that seat long if things are as bad as they sound. If things are, say 25%, as bad as they sound we should have heard about the resignation or termination of someone by this point and a court filing. I have not seen anything like that, so I can only assume that the same ability and capacity to do the same harm to my beloved game are still in place and no treatment has been started. CGL has had some time to deal with this out in the open, but considering how much time you must have been privately aware of this I must say I'm disappointed with the present state of things. Just two weeks ago I can recall telling someone that I loved the work CGL was doing and that I honestly believed you were one of the best outfits in pen and paper gaming today. CGL has made me regret that statement and I've been very sorry to see most of the people that I based that on leave in the wake of this fiasco.

Be honest, Jason. It might not seem like it but it's always worth it. Spin is mostly half truths, and a half truth is as good as a lie. A lie may buy you time but it never pays it's debt.

[Adam]

Posthuman Studios has existed since 2008; we own the rights to Eclipse Phase and some other things we've been working on.

[kzt]

Regarding people trying to gain the license - Smart people don't conduct negotiations on public internet forums....

[Redjack]

You've been doing spin over the last few days. Do us a favor and stop.

I don't think this is fair or that you appreciate the delicate position Jason is in as the line developer. First and foremost, he is an employee of Catalyst. So I'll start by asking that you respect that position before someone vaults from your post into personal attacks.

[Grexul]

I have to agree here, just because CGL doesn't want to air all of it's dirty laundry at this time, doesn't mean that they're not taking care of business.

Grexul

PS my screen name is missing an X

Grex

[Sans Pants]

I have heard rumors in regard to some SR books being recalled because of this. Do we have a list of which books are being pulled, so some of us can run out and buy them?

[emouse]

I have to agree here, just because CGL doesn't want to air all of it's dirty laundry at this time, doesn't mean that they're not taking care of business.

They've hired a team to take care of it real quiet-like, so I've heard. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[JM Hardy]

Jason, it's pretty clear now that the slow pace of publishing at CGL had something to with the criminal actions of company members. Money was being made, but that money was not going to fuel new publication at an efficient rate. Like parasites in a body. We all wondered about it, speculated about it. Watched the line of developers change seats until you found yourself there. I have friend who want to buy books and a store owner who was devastated to hear about this issue at CGL. He's a new player and now he's wondering if he should even carry your products, both out of ethical concerns and the effort of promoting a product that has been so mishandled.

You've been doing spin over the last few days. Do us a favor and stop. I know you want to keep positive about this, that doing so is a part of your job. But you aren't going to be in that seat long if things are as bad as they sound. If things are, say 25%, as bad as they sound we should have heard about the resignation or termination of someone by this point and a court filing. I have not seen anything like that, so I can only assume that the same ability and capacity to do the same harm to my beloved game are still in place and no treatment has been started. CGL has had some time to deal with this out in the open, but considering how much time you must have been privately aware of this I must say I'm disappointed with the present state of things. Just two weeks ago I can recall telling someone that I loved the work CGL was doing and that I honestly believed you were one of the best outfits in pen and paper gaming today. CGL has made me regret that statement and I've been very sorry to see most of the people that I based that on leave in the wake of this fiasco.

Be honest, Jason. It might not seem like it but it's always worth it. Spin is mostly half truths, and a half truth is as good as a lie. A lie may buy you time but it never pays it's debt.

Okay, I'll be a little more blunt. If I'm saying something that you believe is not honest, call me on it. Don't tell me I'm spinning, or not being honest, without telling me what it is I got wrong, specifically. And I would hope, if you're telling me to be more honest, that you are basing that on something other than the fact that you might have a different opinion of events than I do. That's okay if you have a different opinion--lots of people do. But I don't think it should be implied that I'm being dishonest simply because my opinion differs from yours.

I'd also like to point out that there were plenty of things contributing to the slow pace of Shadowrun products being released, and likely neither you nor I know all of them, so we should be cautious about making overly broad conclusions.

Jason H.

[emouse]

I have heard rumors in regard to some SR books being recalled because of this. Do we have a list of which books are being pulled, so some of us can run out and buy them?

The four titles I've heard are...

Vice - Hasn't made it to print yet?
DotA Midnight - Hasn't made it to print yet?
Running Wild
Seatle 2072 - Print copy still listed on Battlecorps, no PDF

Dusk doesn't seem to be listed either, so it might have been pulled as well?

It's not many titles in the scheme of things, but it is their most recent titles.

[Sans Pants]

The four titles I've heard are...

Vice - Hasn't made it to print yet?
DotA Midnight - Hasn't made it to print yet?
Running Wild
Seatle 2072 - Print copy still listed on Battlecorps, no PDF

Dusk doesn't seem to be listed either, so it might have been pulled as well?

It's not many titles in the scheme of things, but it is their most recent titles.

Guess this means I have an order to make.

For what it's worth, I just hope everything gets settled, no matter the outcome, so things can move forward.