Future of Shadowrun, How can we prevent Shadowrun from dieing off? Options

[Link]

Dude, I don't know about this. I personally know people who still play AD&D from the late eighties... Some things, THAC0 included, will never die...

Even if Shadowrun went out of print, with no new development, there would still be a strong, if small, fan-base for the game. We actually see this with most genres of RPGs, where even after one version of the game has ceased being printed, people still cling to it, regardless of the fact that there are newer versions available. I don't believe this would change if it went out of print, just as I wouldn't switch from SR4 to SR5 if it came out in a year. Sure, I might eventually change, once some of the better peripheral books came out, but I wouldn't need to, and would be happy playing SR4 for, well, possibly the rest of my tabletop gaming days. And I can tell you with certainty that I will be inducting new blood, as will every other player and GM who likes the game.

There are AD&D or D&D players using the late 70's to early 80's editions. They even cooked up OSRIC to give a legal footing for publishing new material for profit.

[Bull]

2) The corpse is still not cold.

Heck, there's not even a corpse yet. CGL just took a nasty shot from a high caliber rifle.

Bull

[Bull]

There are AD&D or D&D players using the late 70's to early 80's editions. They even cooked up OSRIC to give a legal footing for publishing new material for profit.

Over on RPGnet, there's a guy who posts under the handle "Old Geezer" (Don't remember his real name off hand). He used to play with Gargy Gygax and Dave Arneson. He still plays OD&D. However, it amuses me to no end that he actually likes D&D 4E (Though sticks with "his" system), and he plays Warcraft with the RPGnet guild. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

[Dread Moores]

I doubt that no more official books means death for a system, especially one with a good fan community - say, Planescape is still going strong enough, despite not really being officially supported since the second edition.

Sure, but how many new fans are coming into Planescape? Or AD&D? Or Tunnels and Trolls? Without commercial product out there? Not many.

[Patrick Goodman]

2) The corpse is still not cold.

The corpse isn't even a corpse yet. Amusing as these polls can be, could we stop the panic for a minute and see how things shake out before we declare anyone or anything dead?

[imperialus]

Sure, but how many new fans are coming into Planescape? Or AD&D? Or Tunnels and Trolls? Without commercial product out there? Not many.

Well there are at least 4 fans of the Holmes Redbox one of whom I'm married to who started slinging dice for the first time about 4 months ago.

[Dread Moores]

Well there are at least 4 fans of the Holmes Redbox one of whom I'm married to who started slinging dice for the first time about 4 months ago.

Sure. Like I said, not many. It's certainly not dead, but without at least some degree of product (commercial or community based) hitting a group of people's attention, it's not really alive either. It's just sort of...zombie-like.

Edit: None of this above really applies to SR at all yet. I'm not sure why there's a sudden rush to call it dead. Just hard to really call AD&D an "active" game for my opinion. I get there's still a fanbase for it, but I have really high doubts its making much new player market penetration. If it's not bringing in new blood to replace the old that will eventually leave, that just doesn't really fit an "active" game for me. That's only personal opinion though.

[Bull]

Edit: None of this above really applies to SR at all yet. I'm not sure why there's a sudden rush to call it dead. Just hard to really call AD&D an "active" game for my opinion. I get there's still a fanbase for it, but I have really high doubts its making much new player market penetration. If it's not bringing in new blood to replace the old that will eventually leave, that just doesn't really fit an "active" game for me. That's only personal opinion though.

I don't think any published game that had fans can truly ever die. There is always someone out there who talks about it, and at least occasionally breaks it out and plays, even if it's just for old times sake. Heck, I ran a Redbox Basic D&D game at Origins a couple years ago for shits and giggles.

I like your term though. I think games that are no longer published or supported can be considered "Inactive". Shy of a ton of fan support, you're not going to see many games no longer being produced make any "Forward" progress or fine new material for them. (There are a few out there though, to be sure).

Bull

[Bull]

And to clarify an error in the poll options... CGL does not "Own the license". Topps owns the Property, CGL licenses that Property from them. A minor thing, and a common mistake.

A license is an agreement between two parties, generally, that grants permission to one party. A Drivers License is grants someone permission to drive. Hunting license grants permission to hunt. A publishing license grants permission to publish books based on a property.

Bull

[Tachi]

Heck, there's not even a corpse yet. CGL just took a nasty shot from a high caliber rifle.

Bull

Yeah Bull, but the question seems to still remain, with quite a few people, of weither anyone has bothered to apply a tourniquet, or if they'll let the trusted talent keep bleeding out. No offense to those still there dude, we know who you are, but the loss of so many people that we trusted with the setting is bound to have an effect on consumer confidence. I'm not to worried at this point, I'll wait for a while before I panic.


"When in danger, or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout." << The standard response to uncertainty is certainly in full force.

[Bull]

I understand. I don't have all the behind the scenes information, and there's something I can't talk about, but I think I can safely say that CGL is attempting to apply First Aid, at the very least.

It sucks that CGL has lost everyone that it has. They're all people I consider friends and know personally on some level, so it doubly sucks. And when CGL recovers, their loss will be felt for some time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

And while panic is a natural reaction, I am glad that a lot of folks are keeping a level head.

Bull

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

A license is an agreement between two parties, generally, that grants permission to one party. A Drivers License is grants someone permission to drive. Hunting license grants permission to hunt. A publishing license grants permission to publish books based on a property.

Bull

Sooo, how much would it cost for us to get a fake license that allow us to publish Shadowrun material? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
(Sorry, had to post this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) )

[JM Hardy]

I understand. I don't have all the behind the scenes information, and there's something I can't talk about, but I think I can safely say that CGL is attempting to apply First Aid, at the very least.

Everyone that CGL lost sucks. They're all people I consider friends and know personally on some level, so it doubly sucks. And when CGL recovers, their loss will be felt for some time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

And while panic is a natural reaction, I am glad that a lot of folks are keeping a level head.

Bull

Not that I want to speak for Bull, but I'm pretty sure that when he says "Everyone that CGL lost sucks," he means that it sucks that they will not be working with CGL (a sentiment I share), not that the people themselves suck. Just thought it was a clarification worth making.

Jason H.

[Cergorach]

Not that I want to speak for Bull, but I'm pretty sure that when he says "Everyone that CGL lost sucks," he means that it sucks that they will not be working with CGL (a sentiment I share), not that the people themselves suck. Just thought it was a clarification worth making.

Yeah, I had to read that statement multiple times, wondering if it was me that misinterpreted Bulls words (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Bull]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif) Oops! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

Yes, thanks you Jason. I've fixed my original post. That was what I meant.

I need a proofer for my message board posts, apparently (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bull

[nezumi]

I have to admit, that is another way to "kill" Shadowrun. If CGL hires new freelancers and such, and those new people also have a terrible idea of where Shadowrun should go, that too would make me sad (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) However, it sounds like despite a lot of really good blood moving elsewhere, we still have a few of our great freelancers hanging around, right? JongWK? That other guy whose name slips my mind?

(And thank you, Brazilian, you understood my sentiments correctly.)

[JM Hardy]

So I see at least two ways this could continue. One is to go down the path where we try to characterize the freelancers who continue to work on Shadowrun. Are they knowledgeable enough? Skilled enough? Love Shadowrun enough? Love [x] style of Shadowrun as much as I do? And we could go back and forth on that a while.

Or we could decide that the only accurate way to judge the future of Shadowrun is to base our theories on reality instead of competing characterizations of people whom we may not know. So we stick to three main criteria:

1) Does Catalyst still have the license to publish Shadowrun books?
2) Are books coming out?
3) Do I like the books that are coming out?

I know it's not as immediately gratifying as speculation, but that's the only way we we'll know if Shadowrun has a future at CGL. I have my opinion about the freelancers I'm working with, and I'm very excited about the text they've turned in. And our art director loves Shadowrun and is doing awesome work. But I don't expect anyone to take my word on those points. Watch what comes out, see if you like it, and then you can better decide if Shadowrun and CGL have a future together.

Do I expect everyone on Dumpshock to like what will be coming out? No, but then I can't remember any product ever than met with unified praise across all of Dumpshockia. Indeed, if Dumpshock ever unites in praise of anything, I believe the Seventh Seal will open, and many of us will be sitting around wondering why all those nice people we used to know have suddenly disappeared.

Throughout the past seven months, including the previous eight days, I've been working to produce quality products for Shadowrun. That work hasn't stopped. And as I said, those products are the best indicators we'll have of Shadowrun's future.

Jason H.

[TBRMInsanity]

It is good to hear that new products are being created. I will certainly still buy them.

[Dread Moores]

So I see at least two ways this could continue. One is to go down the path where we try to characterize the freelancers who continue to work on Shadowrun. Are they knowledgeable enough? Skilled enough? Love Shadowrun enough? Love [x] style of Shadowrun as much as I do? And we could go back and forth on that a while.

There's another real important aspect to consider here, and something Jason is leaving unsaid. I don't know how many of you are as familiar with the BT side of CGL, but that (online) community had an absolutely MAJOR crisis of confidence when the Jihad storyline premiered (following the rather unhappy, and silly, community response to Wizkids Mechwarrior). This was largely still a community that had come up through the Bryan Nystul era of Battletech, and the Jihad material under Bills and Herb was quite different (and much better, in my opinion) than that era. The game, the storyline, and the people involved had seen some major changes. Moving forward to the current era, and you still have some of those same names there. But try and find more than a small handful of the "big" names that were present in the Bryan Nystul era, well, there's not a ton (Randall, Blaine, Stackpole, probably). So, things move forward, change happened, new folks came on board, and the community survived. But here's the really important part. It wasn't the names that mattered. It was the talent behind them. It doesn't matter that an Adam Jury is gone (or rejoins). What matters is the talent that Adam brought to the table with his name (well, that and the White Jesus vibe). I can respect all the folks who have left, and wish them the best, but it doesn't leave me thinking that the game is in any less capable freelancer hands. Because at some point, all of those folks were new. We're not losing anything because "old-timers" left, we're losing something because talent left. On the other hand, it doesn't mean we're not getting anything good because "newbies" are showing up. We'll see what the new talent offers in terms of new product, just like we've done every other time in the past.

There's a whole lot of unnecessary hand-wringing (which hasn't been helped by some of the personal conflicts) going on here, at least until such time as we see what happens with the license.

[nezumi]

The response to that is, while the product they come up with may be good, even excellent, the truth is, most of us are happy with the game we're playing right now (otherwise we wouldn't be playing it), and making a new game that is different means, really, I can't expect to continue buying nice things for the game I'm enjoying right now.

Considering the change to SR4 took it a step further away from what I've been enjoying (not saying SR4 is a bad game - it's just not a game that I like to play), reducing the connections to SR3 increases the odds that they will take another step away.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Circumstances differ, and frankly, it's not that easy to find a group if you don't have rping acquaintances already; and online gaming is a saver. On the other hand, I fail to see how online invalidates the need for P&P sourcebooks.

Thank you for understanding the upsides of what I was trying to say.

I wasn't saying "online multiplayer" invalidates the the need for P&P sourcebooks, I merely view it as a progression, sorta like the SR settings progression from wired to wireless. And I am pretty sure I made it clear that is was a personal stance, wasn't trying to speak for a majority or even a minority.

How do I put this, hmm... We used to only be able to get our game on with pencil & paper, some dice, a common book, and a place to sit with others. Now we can type up notes, run a random number generator prog, download a .pdf, and join a chat room or whatever, like say join a forum. The only real difference I see is the commute.

So if I follow that progression into the future, I would hope that it would allow for something like what I enjoy with Neverwinter Nights (1 or 2), only instead of D&D have it be Shadowrun, a setting which I have enjoyed far more in its novels and source book than the D&D settings (Dragonlance, Eberon, Forgotten Realms, etc...) and source book. And SR's character creation point system I find far superior as well. I also find the D6 only a far more palatable system than the many different dice found in D&D.

In the mean time, I lurk around and try to wrap my head around IRC or MUD commands and never quite being satisfied with the interface and so on.

[Stahlseele]

I have to admit, that is another way to "kill" Shadowrun. If CGL hires new freelancers and such, and those new people also have a terrible idea of where Shadowrun should go, that too would make me sad (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) However, it sounds like despite a lot of really good blood moving elsewhere, we still have a few of our great freelancers hanging around, right? JongWK? That other guy whose name slips my mind?

(And thank you, Brazilian, you understood my sentiments correctly.)

That other guy?
The guy who called himself a new Freelancer some days back on dumpshock?
catadmin?

[nezumi]

(actually, that's an empty spot so if a freelancer comes up and says "hey, what about me, don't you like my work?" I can say 'oh yeah, that's what I meant back there. I just forgot your name, sorry.'

But don't tell anyone. It doesn't work if you advertise it.)

[Mongoose]

Over on RPGnet, there's a guy who posts under the handle "Old Geezer" (Don't remember his real name off hand). He used to play with Gargy Gygax and Dave Arneson. He still plays OD&D. However, it amuses me to no end that he actually likes D&D 4E (Though sticks with "his" system), and he plays Warcraft with the RPGnet guild. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

Not that surprising. Old school D&D is pretty hack & slash. Gygax adapted a miniature wargame rules set for OD&D; D&D 4e is heavily miniatures driven, in part to cater to the "tactical combat" that Warcraft players are used to.

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So, what does this mean for folks who are NOT freelancers, but were hoping to send in proposals? I'm guessing the need for / response to such submissions is pretty much suspended?

[JM Hardy]

So, what does this mean for folks who are NOT freelancers, but were hoping to send in proposals? I'm guessing the need for / response to such submissions is pretty much suspended?

Honestly, I never have a ton of time to review proposals, but I try to get to them when I can. If you have a proposal that also has a sample of your writing, though, you can always send it in, and it can also serve as an audition piece for work on other books. I'll PM you with my e-mail address.

Jason H.