So, Missions. Now what? Options

[Bull]

Artworks is awesome. Keep it! BUT. Make them handouts or part of the "B" handout packet so that they are can be displayed to all the players to appreciate. I really like that a lot of the artwork is reflective of the scene or module you are running. If I can stick it up on my GM screen, or hand it out to players without part of the mission notes attached that would be awesome. For my FLGS games I can cut and paste artwork and print it alone for handouts, but it would be better if the packet had that in it already.

I agree that we need to keep the artwork where we can.

I will say this though... While artwork exists for the players, one reason art is spread out through the modules is that it exists for the GM as well. It not only helps break up the pages so they're not just one Wall of Text after another (Which helps make the pages easier to read, in my experience), the art also helps give the GM a visual idea of the scenes, to help spark their imagination and aid in their descriptions.

I don't know that all the art needs to be shuffled to the back of the book, per se, but I do agree that anything that's a handout or that needs to be shown to the player should be set up to be easily used as a handout, and should definately have art where appropriate.

Of course, this all relies on things like our budget, and art is handled by CGLs Art Director and our layout guys, so it's also not entirely in my hands. But it's something I'll keep in mind and pass along.

Handouts are awesome. The contacts sheets are cool for the players. The Corporate affiliation rewards should also be a standard packet with pictures and stats. "Hey you did a good job for us, here's your reward." and I hand them a item sheet. (The evil part is that this will motivate a lot of players to take a lot of affiliations...)

I don't disagree with this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Product at games.. yeah, difficult to bring real stuff and manage... but... If I bring a laptop, and there's wireless, and I can get to battleshop, then people can order on the spot! Should do this at Origins and Gencon, an online order station dedicated laptop. Any FLGS gm could do this too, but probably not appropriate. But what could really be fun, is some kind of Missions Discount Coupon Code! A generic or mission specific event code that can be used in the Battleshop order to get a small discount. That way CGL/Battleshop can track what online orders are a result of a Mission event. ( I would make sure to do some kind of time limited expiring coupon code !)

This is another of those that falls outside my jurisdiction, but it's something I can pass along. I will say though that having a dedicated laptop around for Online Ordering could be an issue. Heck, *I* don't even have a laptop, let aloe an extra one that can be used for such a thing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

and finally... Keep the schedule, Keep the schedule, Keep the schedule ,Keep the schedule , Keep the schedule!

There are people who travel for hours to get to their monthly missions game and if there isn't one available that just sucks for everyone.

What if I say no? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Obviously, I'd like to, and I'm working on getting everything back on track ASAP.

Bull

[Bull]

I kinda felt my concerns were brushed aside in favor of Wasabi's I'm mostly fine with that as there was a lot of overlap. For my part I like Manhattan and the less of a feel that "Oh the big bad super NPC is coming, you better run because your all totally low class scum and should run, also don't you feel bad that that little girl got killed four mods ago, becuase you should totally still feel terrible about that." SO if Seattle was more of the same then it holds minimal interest to me.

This is, honestly, a personal opinion that differs with every players. Some folks vastly preferred Denver to New York. Some still like the Seattle Missions from Season 1 the best. Shadowrun has always had a very loosely defined style and theme to it, and one of the appeals of the game has always been how easily it adapts to certain groups playstyles.

Of course, that said, when you're writing a campaign, you kind of have to pick a style and roll with it, and just hope that as many players as possible enjoy it.

One of the other campaigns of this same type I played Heroes of Rokugan (Living L5R) had one single overworked campaign admin editor. It had no fancy layout, no art and very little in the way of handouts. Occasionally a module will have a note as part of handouts or a hand drawn map either as part of the players section or to help the GM's mind eye. What a HOR module have is a timely release and typically about 20 pages of dense text, area descriptions, information on character etc. That count doesn't include a cover page, a tips page one some setting and campaign specific things, and the NPC stat blocks. I think that SRM would be well served by adopting this model.

If Missions was strictly a fan-driven project, done by fans for fans, with some minor support from the company, that would be fine. However, Missions has evolved into something a bit more than that. It started with Denver, and by the time New York rolled around, we were supporting the Missions project by paying and/or comping the authors, artists, editors, etc. We also wanted to be able to start doing things like the Manhattan eBook. Because of this though, Missions has to be self supporting, which means that we have to be able to sell the products we were producing, to finance later projects. The more we sell, the more we can do. But to sell the books, we need the art, we need the layout. We need the product looking as professional as possible.

This is another area that that's going to fall a bit into that area of Personal Opinion a bit as well. For some folks, the art is important, as they need or want that visual aspect to the adventure, as it helps them as a GM to visualize. For others, it's not so important.

There's a line somewhere between fan project and professional project, and we're trying to aim more toward professional.

I personally believe that whether as part of missions as a whole or just as stand alone resources for GM"s SRM's first and secondary goals should be 1) To set up a fun campaign one module at a time 2) To make the GM's life easier. These two goals if actualized will accomplish two things that all the pretty lay out just won't. 1) They will attract more players to SRM and SR (which from a company standpoint will drive book sales) 2) They'll attract more GM's willing to make use of the product.

Agreed.

Also I'll just take a moment and disagree with something Wasabi said. I think the panda comlink mod he/she is refering to is primal forces from Denver. Like a lot of Denver modules primal Forces had a mandatory fight/complication scene that is supposed to happen regardless of what precautions the runners take. Denver did this kind of rail roading all the time and it was rather old and tired very quickly. Modules should be fluid and it's understandable that for best results some scenes should be arranged to happen regardless of table specifics, but you couldn't throw a rock in the denver missions without running into a pre-scripted ambush. Also for me Shadowrun has always been at it's face about runners working the shadows between the megacorps and other major organizations, playing bag men for the uninteresting criminal factions of denver (which there were entirely too many of by the by) wasn't very shadowrun to me, others tastes may of course differ.

Again, see above. I never played Denver myself, so I'm not that familiar with the nuances or the style of the adventures.

Actually one thing I did want to cover that I feel would be important:
As it currently stands GM's get nothing for running modules that they have never played. By the technical letter of the rules I can run a module and turn around and play it at a later date although good form as a gamer insists that I kind of keep my mouth shut. This system is very unsatisfying. What I would propose is this, no one may play a mission after having read or ran it,this is implied but not directly spelled out int he campaign rules. However when a GM "eats" a module, that is runs it for the enjoyment of others without having played it themselves there should be a special log sheet just for that. They should get the max karma available to the module and about 5 grand to apply to a character they play of their choosing. Obviously they will not be eligable for faction rewards or any additional monies. TO keep epople honest they would have to put the module down on the characters calendar and pay lifestyle as appropriate. Basically the net goal of this is to not punish GM's for being willing to eat modules. As someone who played some fo the later mods and has already eaten a fair number of early mods so the locals here can play them I will admit this holds a certain appeal for me.

GMs never get anything from GMing an adventure, Missions or not, beyond the personal satisfaction of entertaining your friends and a job well done. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

However, if you're a part of the Demo team and running Missions as part of the demo program, you do get something from it: Battleshop Credit. If you're running at Origins or Gen Con, we'll work you like a dog, but the rewards are even better.

Now, that said... There's nothing that says you can't play in an adventure you've GMed. Hell, there's nothing saying you can't play through the same Missions more than once. Obviously, you can only get the rewards for the Mission once, and you're cheating yourself a little bit, but... <shrug> Yes, you know the plot line to the adventure if you've GMed it. YOu may even know all the faction rewards and the like, so it's up to you if it's worth doing, and if you consider it "cheating" or not.

Frankly, I will play through any Mission I've already GMed. We've got a Missions campaign going now, and I plan to take advantage of it. I just wont make any choices for the team if I know the plot. But as long as I'm acting in character, doing what my character would do (WHich is pretty easy. Rush isn't exactly a strategist), and I'm not spoiling the fun for the other players,I don't consider it an issue.

This is something that will be addressed in the future in the FAQ, I hope.

Parting shot: The web site really needs update to reflect the change to Manhattan and maybe that might be a good place to revitalize the process of collecting otucome data for missiosn so we can start maybe reflecting little events in the storyline there. For example how cool would it be to see a scream sheet based on the most common outcome of Burning Bridges and In and Out?

I believe this was addressed previously, but I agree.

Bull

[Bull]

What I would want is more of a CGL presence in the UK i've not come across one so far though I might have missed it XD.

That's a matter with CGL, which is a bit beyond our scope with Missions. However, that doesn't stop folks from joining the Demo team and running events over there. I would love to see more global representation for the CGL Demo Team and for Missions.

Bull

[Bull]

This is actually the reason I can't run any Missions for Bull, since he'll have read all the missions before release, he can't play in them. (I'll still run a table for Bull, TR 11 I promise!) There's nothing explicit written, but all the Mission GMs I know who also play make a point of playing the Mission before they read the mission for GMing if they want to have Mission characters, This makes for some serious scheduling headaches at Origins and GenCon. And if you check the history in thsi forum, you'll see that's the stock answer, Play the Mission before GMing it if you want an Official Mission character.

Instituting a reporting and control procedures is a pain. We don't do it for the players outside of Mission Logs, and attempting to do something for Mission GMs playing characters is not worth the time. It's not just GMs who can get a hold of Missions ahead of time, the entire Denver set is downloadable, and the NY are purchasable. If someone wants to "cheat" they can just go right ahead and "cheat" themselves.

Like I said above, I fully plan to run the adventures with Rush. I just know to keep my mouth shut if I know the plot. <shrug>

It's up to each GM to handle this as they like. And it's one of those things you have to deal with when you're the GM. It's true with Missions, or any other plotline. If you read Ghost Cartels, or run Ghost Cartels, you can't really play through it with the same enjoyment later on because you know what happens. This holds true for any RPG on the market, too.

Bull

[Bull]

My quip is with the affiliation system, it seems that every AAA corp knows about the run despite the fact that you took great pains to hide what you were doing (going so far as to redirect blame to humanis). My reasoning is that as a shadow runner, if you do your job right, no one but your fixer knows it (what the job was if the fixer was smart is nothing).

Heh, I was going to note that you likely meant your "quibble" and not your "quip", but one of the definitions of quip is "A quibble". Weird. Learn something new every day (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anyway, I both agree and disagree with your assertion here. In theory, the corps wouldn't be all knowing, but I also maintain there's no way for runners to ever be completely clear, no matter how careful they are. There's just too many ways to track down information in Shadowrun. Of course, this segways into a whole argument about whether or not shadowrunning is even viable or logically possible in Shadowrun, but whatever. This is a topic that touches on Shadowrun as a whole.

My stance is, runners need to make their rep, and it needs to be made publicly. Because otherwise, you only ever work for one single person (No one else will hire you if they've never heard of you), and you're going to be at that person's whims. ("Go ahead, quit. I'll blackball you so fast, tell every other fixer in the city how you chumped out on the one and only run you ever did for me. Yes, it's a lie, but hey, you've kept everything so quiet, how are they going to know?") But, yeah, that's a whole other conversation and isn't Mission specific.

The affiliation idea only works well if the Corps are nigh omniscient, honestly. In the future we may re-evaluate some of how it works, but... It exists mainly as an interesting extra dimension to the game and campaign. A way to test players, to give them some extra rewards, and on occasion see how far they're willing to go.

Bull

[DireRadiant]

I agree that we need to keep the artwork where we can. I don't know that all the art needs to be shuffled to the back of the book, per se, but I do agree that anything that's a handout or that needs to be shown to the player should be set up to be easily used as a handout, and should definately have art where appropriate.

You could... have two copies of artwork, one inline, one at the end!

[Bull]

You could... have two copies of artwork, one inline, one at the end!

True. Again, this comes down to art and layout and all that jazz, and I have no idea how much power I wield over them... Maybe if I get all the Infinity Gems... Hrmmm... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Warlordtheft]

Heh, I was going to note that you likely meant your "quibble" and not your "quip", but one of the definitions of quip is "A quibble". Weird. Learn something new every day (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anyway, I both agree and disagree with your assertion here. In theory, the corps wouldn't be all knowing, but I also maintain there's no way for runners to ever be completely clear, no matter how careful they are. There's just too many ways to track down information in Shadowrun. Of course, this segways into a whole argument about whether or not shadowrunning is even viable or logically possible in Shadowrun, but whatever. This is a topic that touches on Shadowrun as a whole.

My stance is, runners need to make their rep, and it needs to be made publicly. Because otherwise, you only ever work for one single person (No one else will hire you if they've never heard of you), and you're going to be at that person's whims. ("Go ahead, quit. I'll blackball you so fast, tell every other fixer in the city how you chumped out on the one and only run you ever did for me. Yes, it's a lie, but hey, you've kept everything so quiet, how are they going to know?") But, yeah, that's a whole other conversation and isn't Mission specific.

The affiliation idea only works well if the Corps are nigh omniscient, honestly. In the future we may re-evaluate some of how it works, but... It exists mainly as an interesting extra dimension to the game and campaign. A way to test players, to give them some extra rewards, and on occasion see how far they're willing to go.

Bull

Using fancy words makes me feel smurt. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, I can see that. The paradox of runners getting a rep, and runners being discreete. My one suggestion is to have the Affiliations contact the PC's prior to meeting the Johnson(as further incentive to take the job). I'd strongly encourage that the PCs keep their affiliations a secret too--makes life more interesting--a neo A runner with an Ares affiliated runner working at cross purposes but don't know it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[DWC]

Speaking of Affiliations, is there any plan to begin scaling the rewards for them based on TR?

[Bull]

Speaking of Affiliations, is there any plan to begin scaling the rewards for them based on TR?

THat's an interesting idea. Ideally, I'd like to start scaling the entire adventure, top to bottom, for TR, including Karma rewards. But that's involved and I don't know when we'd be able to start doing that, or if it's even feasible. It does mean a lot more work on the part of the writers and GMs.

Table Rating needs to mean a bit more, IMO. It's a running joke around here that any table I'm at needs to be run at TR 11, but the fact is, I've played several missions at TR 6 now, and thought they weren't really any more difficult than the first couple games I played (TR 2 and TR 4). ANd RUsh only has like 30 karma. Ok, yes, he's a bit of a combat monster, but still (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

[Zolhex]

As the table level increases the nuyen goes up so haveing the karma go up would be a nice thing same for the rewards.

One thing I have heard some players comment on is they do a Mission and at the end they get offered some reward and the players is like eh what ever. The reason for that is say the pure magic guy who will no matter what refuse to get Cyber/Bio yet there is a reward of a delta clinc visit kinda useless to him same for the genetic optimization reward.

So maybe an idea could be that which ever corp your running for could offer say 3 to 5 things as a reward?

[KarmaInferno]

I kinda miss Claudia Tyger.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)





-karma

[Wasabi]

It'd be nifty if Affiliation rewards could be bought with Karma. While some characters may not be interested the option of either getting a 500 nuyen grenade or spending 1 karma to get a 5000 nuyen rocket the idea seems in my mind to be interesting.

[TeaTime]

.... The reason for that is say the pure magic guy who will no matter what refuse to get Cyber/Bio yet there is a reward of a delta clinc visit kinda useless to him same for the genetic optimization reward.

That's why there is trading. We don't kiss and tell about affiliation, but nothing says you have to keep your reward secret.

You get me an appointment at a SRM legal Delta Clinic, and I'll get your guy a force 5 power focus.

[TeaTime]

Personally, I'm fine with how affiliation rewards currently stand. Sometimes they're great, sometime they're useless, and I think the randomness adds to fun- or better still, takes your PC off in an unexpected direction...."Hmmm, maybe my hacker SHOULD give his new flamethrower a try!"

I wouldn't mind if the reward scales, but that seems like x6 the work for the writers to come up with appropriate bonuses. I think I'd rather the work be put into more mods.

My only peeve is when your faction doesn't tell you about your mission. Very hard to guess most of the time.

[LurkerOutThere]

Errr I'm 99% sure that affiliation rewards are very specifically non transferable, sellable, or tradeable and something like a delta clinic would be especially so. You can't very well say to your super secret backers. "Hey guys I know i'm not supposed to let people know I work for you and delta clinics are some of the best kept secrets in the world but totally let this dude use my slot 'k thanks"

[LurkerOutThere]

Errr I'm 99% sure that affiliation rewards are very specifically non transferable, sellable, or tradeable and something like a delta clinic would be especially so. You can't very well say to your super secret backers. "Hey guys I know i'm not supposed to let people know I work for you and delta clinics are some of the best kept secrets in the world but totally let this dude use my slot 'k thanks"

Further checking of the FAQ and some of the missions and I am unable to find this wierd, although I stand by my point about the delta clinic or for example the enchanting facility or shop another module gives.

[SaintHax]

Errr I'm 99% sure that affiliation rewards are very specifically non transferable, sellable, or tradeable and something like a delta clinic would be especially so. You can't very well say to your super secret backers. "Hey guys I know i'm not supposed to let people know I work for you and delta clinics are some of the best kept secrets in the world but totally let this dude use my slot 'k thanks"

Let's stay on topic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[rumanchu]

Further checking of the FAQ and some of the missions and I am unable to find this wierd, although I stand by my point about the delta clinic or for example the enchanting facility or shop another module gives.

In this vein (and based on the conversation going on about the Used Vechicle rules), would it be possible to get an updated FAQ/Guidelines for running/playing Missions? There are a lot of things in the various sourcebooks that aren't specifically listed as being 'optional' but are arguably up to GM caveat.

[Zolhex]

I got a question?

Why does Missions have to use the BROAD brush when it comes to optional rules?

Yes I get some of them require more work to use than others so why not allow some of the lesser or even non involved optional rules to be useable?

Yes this me pokeing and prodding to get the optional rule that lets adepts take a power point vs. what is mostly a useless Metamagic ability!

[KnightRunner]

As a more general comment than the one above..... the Missions FAQ could use some expansion and updating.

[Bull]

I think I've said this elsewhere, but it's on my ToDo list.

However, it falls somewhere below making sure that we're on schedule and on track for the rest of the current New York arc (4 more, through Mission 12), the Convention stuff (8 more Missions for those) and then planning the next Missions arc which will hopefully start shortly after Mission 03-12 gets released.

This is something i want to work on though.

When i find the time.

Time. Oh precious, precious time...

Bull

[KnightRunner]

Was not trying to be pushy. Just mentioning.

Come to think of it, what are you doing watching the forums? You're too busy for this nonsense. Get back to work already. Geez good help is hard to find these days!

(Joking btw)

[DWC]

With only 4 more Missions in New York, was this a hint that Gencon's Scramble could be the dramatic conclusion for the New York arc?

[unemployedsamura...]

I've played in the misions for the last 4 Con seasons and from Denver to NYC adn love what ya'll have done, keep up the quality work, and continue to make my vactions fun :0.

1: can we ever get a contact over loyalty 4..you guys keep giving us the same contacts all the time i have Mr. Hong/Carzyhorse Eddie/Peaceman all at loyalty 4..can we push that up to 5 or 6 if we kep running into them and selling gear and giving them newyen

2: loved last years GenCon scramble keep it up..no pressure to out do yourselves thi syear..and If you guys did a scramble at Origins..sign me up

Just keep up the good work, and keep letting me shot it in the face and I'll always find a seat at the table.