Ok guys. Here's where I start a thread I immediately regret, and regret more and more every day for the next few weeks...

I want to hear your thoughts on Missions.

I'm not coming in and making sweeping changes to the Missions system, though minor tweaks here and there are not out of the question. So don't start suggesting drastic changes. But I am curious to see what you guys think. But please keep in mind that we still want these to be ideal for both Convention and in store Open play, as well as catering to the home crowd as well.

What do you like?

What do you not like?

What would you like to see done differently?

What should we not change, under any circumstances?

So go for it, give me your feedback!

Bull

Well I'm awake and so I'll start this show:

I'll start by saying tha I love shadowrun and love missions and work within my little niche of the sixth world to be a good salesman for both.

So things I like, I very much like the manhattan missions and the action movie feel to them. Many of them are very much what I would point out to people as the essence of Shadowrun, dirty deeds done at competitive rates. I very much hated the impression in Denver that you were low scum working for low scum and I also disliked some of the ham handed attempts at morality in the Denver missions. That's not to say that there can't be moral questions posed by SR and SRM I just feel their better kept low key. One thing I would like to see is a few more places for Hackers and Technos to shine but I understand that part of the missions framework is not making any one "archetype" mandatory. Maybe an option put in there for groups that don't have those types to subcontract.

Things to change: The mods must flow. I wasn't around for previous years but I have done other living campaigns both as a writer and a player and this is kind of rediculous. Their held up for art, their held up for lay out, they pretty much do everything but delivery ona one module a month time line. That for me is the signle most disapointing thing about SRM. every other living style campaign I can care to mention shotos for that one a month mark. Now none of them put artwork in, which begs the question why we do. No disrespect to the artists but if it's not a handout/prop I can give to my players it just doesn't do me any good at all. If it's the fact that it's a for profit venture maybe we need to look at it not be. While it is certianly nice to recompensate those who write the mods it shouldn't come at the cost of the process.

Things not to change under any circumstances: The shadowrun scramble is just about the most fun I've ever had at Gencon. In fact if I had my way we'd double the fix by running it at Origins as well. In other words definitely don't do away with the scramble.

I would LOVE to do a Scramble at Origins

I'll very likely be pushing to do one next year.

Bull

Q: What do you like?

• I like Missions. Sounds like a line, but I wish it was just better facilitated and supported. Details further down.

Q: What do you not like?

• I dont like the pace of module release since The_Dunner had his little one.
• I don't like that the concerns of Casazil have not been addressed. Not for a personal reason, mind you, he is just one demo GM, instead its because he presented the concerns of a GM to just use SR to entertain people and showed the discouragement of an active GM and local playerbase. After such a cogent presentation of concern I hate it that he got put into a holding pattern that hasn't been resolved even a year later. I would turn it from dislike into like if the issue could be made somewhat better and then an honest response to him about either whats being done to make things better or a posting of then-and-now timetables. For the record btw I've only played in once of his games and it went poorly but his heart is totally owned by the genre and Missions program.

Q: What would you like to see done differently?

• I'd like to see confidence in the support given to Missions Coordinators at conventions. They seem to not have Faith in the support they get and instead struggle to get what they get. This may be inaccurate so please take a private poll of past Coordinators and get their specific concerns. They make the venue *work*.
• I'd like to see some official presence from Catalyst at major conventions like DC. Its rare at DC.
• I'd like to see books for sale in the gaming room. Its like putting crack in the crackhouse.
• I don't know about Scrambles. I've never been to a Scramble because I do DC and not GC. Consider this comment a "I wish Scrambles were attempted at other large venues" but I say so blindly and sight-unseen.
• I'd like to see unwinnable scenarios (talking panda commlink comes to mind) not be unwinnable and instead have a near-impossible test that a high-edge roll miiiight be able to sway. Contact me via PM if you're a CGL Demo GM and want specifics.
• An FAQ on dumpshock so we can get more interest in the Missions program
• I miss the pink-haired ganger style of the Seattle Missions. They felt the most "Shadowrun'y" to me. Denver was fairly Shadowrun-y and NYC feels like a novelty or a dare and not so much the hodgepodge of weirdness I grew up to know as Shadowrun. Its not James Bond, its Shadowrun.

Q: What should we not change, under any circumstances?

• Character retirement is a hot issue. See the two prior threads for PC feedback on retirement. While it may be implementable there are some awfully strong feelings that would not mix well with the slowdown in Missions being released for play.
• The broad application of abilities so many roles can have something to do. Nobody wants to be told "You played a xxx? You should have played a yyy because they are always useful."
• The GM's have by and large been wonderful. Facilitate them. That should include rewards including hardbacks if they jump through a silly number of hoops. I'm not saying make it as easy as earning a PDF, mind you, but have an option for hardback as a reward for an overwealming amount of support for the program.

.

OVERALL:
All in all I'm a satisfied customer that feels like the Missions program is being neglected by The Corporate Masters. We players just want to play and GM's just want stuff and venue at Conventions to run. Sure we may all have different elements we like included in the product but at the end of the day if someone is enthused enough to read this thread then they care enough about the game and genre to stomach variation from what they consider the Perfect 'Run.

Thanks Bull for the poll. I know it cant be stress free to do so.

I had this discussion until I was just tired of it with Aaron and Stephen. But... the one thing I'll still mention is: I hate the fencing policy. It doesn't use contacts, it doesn't allow negotiations, it doesn't make sense. I've seen the problem: veteran runners looting everything from NPC's to get extra cred, when really it's unlikely they'd bother picking up a rating III comm at their level. But the system still sucks.

In addition, the forced 4:1 rule sucks, as it makes improbable now impossible. I see potential for abuse there, but I'd rather the cheaters cheat, and SRM not punish me for it.

Lastly, our Fixers have a worse time getting loot than our Shaman does. That's really a fault of SR4 for not making the Connections rating more powerful though.

I like that you like Missions. Hopefully I won't screw things up and change your mind down the road



Agreed. I currently have 12 Missions in various stages of being worked on (Everything from "This is one step away from going to Art and Layout" down to "I have a name for the adventure and I know who's writing it, but that's it". I also have the missions that follow up Season 3, Mission 12 on my docket that are in the pre-planning stages. None of these count Firestorm, Mission 03-08, which is Bishop is wrapping up for me so I can focus on the rest of the backlog.

I posted a schedule full of deadlines last night. I think the writers now hate me



I'm not familiar with this sitch, so can you fill me in? Hearing that a GM isn't happy makes Bull unhappy.



Being as new as I am, I'm still getting a handle on what we do and don't do. Are we talking the bigger cons (Gen Con, Origins, Dragon Con) or smaller cons, such as Acen, that folks GM at? Or either or?

I know CGL puts a lot of support behind Gen Con and Origins, since those are the big boys for RPGs. THey've started putting more support behind Dragon Con the last couple of years as well. Beyond that, I'm not sure what we do and what we've done in the past.

I also need clarification on what you mean by support. We talking adventures and character sheets, monetary support, prize support, or what? Regardless, I will say this: Missions has almost no budget. I want to fix that, but the only way to do so is increase sales of the PDFs. The better this stuff sells, the more we can convince the higher ups to give us. I'm hoping to find ways to increase Missions exposure, so people don'yt think of it so much as a niche "Convention game" and more as a regular source for solid adventures that can become an entire campaign.

I'm not sure I've actually answered your question because I'm not 100% sure what the question was, so I apologize.



Last year CGL had a booth, with several reps from the company there. From what I understand (Which is honestly, very little), D*C is pretty expensive to set up shop at (As are most conventions) and because it's focus is not RPGs the way Gen Con and Origins are, sales tend to be poor. Cons are a huge expense for a gaming company (Just shipping product across the country is crazy expensive), and if you're not recouping at least some of that in sales, you have to seriously question the value in going at all.

It sucks that it's a money issue at all, really, because for many of us, that's not what it's about. But between travel, shipping, booth rentals, companies can easily dropa small fortune into the convention.



There are three things against this, unfortunately. Not all three always apply, but usually at least one does.

This requires having a couple CGL employees on hand at all times to watch the merchandise and the money (You would want 2, because at some point, one of them is going to need to use the restroom). And while GMs are acting on the behalf of the company, they are not employees, and unless the CGL staff knew them pretty well, wouldn't be allowed to handle money. So that's at least 2 extra staffers you would need, on top of the folks manning the main booth in the Exhibit hall.

Second, depending on circumstances, all the games may not be held in the same location, or there may be other games (Numerous other games) going on in the same room. Some years at Origins and Gen Con, we've had a single room all to ourselves (And we try to do this every year). Some years though, we get split up. three years ago at Gen Con, games were being held in 3 different locations, spread out among two hotels and the main convention center. Gen Con is trying to accommodate literally thousands upon thousands of events, so it's understandable things get scrambled sometimes. It's not ideal, and we hate it, but it happens.

Third, conventions charge through the nose for booth space. They may have rules set up against selling merchandise in the gaming rooms. I have no clue about this honestly, but I wouldn't put it past some of them.

Finally, there's also the issue of storing and transporting the merchandise. The Exhibit halls are locked up and under guard all night. The game rooms are usually open all night, and even if they're not, they're not guarded. So you would have the hassle of tearig apart whatever booth you set up (If you wanted any signage and the like), and hauling it and your mechandise back to either the exhibit hall (If you shut down before it closed up completely) or back to your hotel room for the night.

I do agree that it wouldn't be a bad idea, and you'd likely get a few extra impulse sales ("Oh, wow, this is the new SR4A? I should totally buy one. Oh look, they have one right there!"). There are a lot of reasons why it wouldn't work though as well.



The Scramble is a lot of work, and is a large operation. It's generally an 8 hour game (give or take, split evenly between tabletop and LARP), and needs several GMs and a handful of NPC actors, even for a smaller event. I'm sure it would be doable at Dragon Con if you had enough GMs interested in doing something like that.



I'm not sure what the example you gave is, but in general, I agree. PLayers should always at least have the illusion of choice, and a nigh impossible chance to succeed. There should never be a point when free will is taken away from the players.

(By "Illusion of Choice", I pretty much mean situations where yes, the players can do other than what the module wants them to do, but it's obviously a bad idea. If your choice is get in a gun fight with a KnighT Errant Firewatch Team or escape out the unguarded back entrance, that's the "Illusion of CHoice". You can stay and fight if you want but you'll likely lose. Even if you win, you've likely hosed things completely. There's only one real choice to make. But, you should always have the choice to do otherwise.)

(To be continued, it cut me off as I had too many quote tags )

Well, notw stickeied and linked at the top of the thread, but yes, I plan to tackle the FAQ and work on redoing things at some point. My To Do list is very long right now.



This is a tough one, because playstyle varies greatly from player to player. There's a lot of different ways to play, and everyone likes it a little different. All I can say is, we try to stick with the game world itself and give the players the chance to do what they want.

For what it's worth, my New York Missions Character, Rush, is an Amerind Ork with a BLue Mohawk, a dragon tattoo across half of his face who wears mirror shades, carries a crapload of guns, a pair of katanas, and a monowhip. He's as old school, classic 1st edition Shadowrun as you can get, and so far, he's kicking the drek outta New York at a table rating of 6



It's understandable. I will say this. The Character Promotion system is coming at some point. It offers up some rewards for players that promote their characters. It's also coming at a natural point in the Missions campaign, so that no one will feel "cut off". I don't want to say too much right now, because not everything's finalized.



Also agreed. I'm writing a Missions adventure right now, and that's something I'm working hard to do. There's one point where the PCs can find some info, and I'm making sure that you can follow that info up via the Matrix, via Legwork, via Magic, and even via Combat (ie., beat up someone and get them to talk). Obviously, there will be points in some games where a character is less useful (There's only so much we can do to accommodate the pacifist face during a combat scene, for example ), but I would really like to avoid having games where a characters entire main skillset is useless.

A good Shadworun should always mix in a little matrix, a little magic, a little legwork and negotiation, and a little combat. You do that, you can make every player happy and give them all a chance to shine. But, as I said above, none of those should be strictly necessary to complete the adventure. Except maybe combat.



I agree, and will do whatever I can for the GMs. I can't promise anything though. See above about our budgets. That side of things is out of my hands, by and large. I'm just the monkey that tries to make sure things get done



I'm glad you're happy thus far, and as I said, hopefully you'll stay that way. And while the job itself isn't stress free, most of the time dealing with fans is the big reward for doing something like this. I can't take any credit for anything yet, since I just took this gig, but having worked on similar projects in the past, I can say that that's the reason I do it. Knowing that people are having fun, having a good time, because of something I worked on. That's the happy right there.

Bull

I really like what the Missions have done and what they are supposed to be for. My local gaming store has a monthly lock-in and I have been running the Denver missions during them. We started in January and have had two so far this year. I just spoke with the owner of the store and he said that the demand for SR has literally exploded. He stated that because of the missions that I (and my friend) have been running, they sold more copies of the SR4A core book then they did of the new, hot off the press D&D PHB3. I am flipping stoked about that because more sales means that I am doing my job as a Field Agent to get a good showing of SR out there.

While I have not played or run the Manhattan Missions yet, if they play anything like the Denver ones, keep up the good work.

Artworks is awesome. Keep it! BUT. Make them handouts or part of the "B" handout packet so that they are can be displayed to all the players to appreciate. I really like that a lot of the artwork is reflective of the scene or module you are running. If I can stick it up on my GM screen, or hand it out to players without part of the mission notes attached that would be awesome. For my FLGS games I can cut and paste artwork and print it alone for handouts, but it would be better if the packet had that in it already.

Handouts are awesome. The contacts sheets are cool for the players. The Corporate affiliation rewards should also be a standard packet with pictures and stats. "Hey you did a good job for us, here's your reward." and I hand them a item sheet. (The evil part is that this will motivate a lot of players to take a lot of affiliations...)

Product at games.. yeah, difficult to bring real stuff and manage... but... If I bring a laptop, and there's wireless, and I can get to battleshop, then people can order on the spot! Should do this at Origins and Gencon, an online order station dedicated laptop. Any FLGS gm could do this too, but probably not appropriate. But what could really be fun, is some kind of Missions Discount Coupon Code! A generic or mission specific event code that can be used in the Battleshop order to get a small discount. That way CGL/Battleshop can track what online orders are a result of a Mission event. ( I would make sure to do some kind of time limited expiring coupon code !)

and finally... Keep the schedule, Keep the schedule, Keep the schedule ,Keep the schedule , Keep the schedule

There are people who travel for hours to get to their monthly missions game and if there isn't one available that just sucks for everyone.

What I would want is more of a CGL presence in the UK i've not come across one so far though I might have missed it XD.

I kinda felt my concerns were brushed aside in favor of Wasabi's I'm mostly fine with that as there was a lot of overlap. For my part I like Manhattan and the less of a feel that "Oh the big bad super NPC is coming, you better run because your all totally low class scum and should run, also don't you feel bad that that little girl got killed four mods ago, becuase you should totally still feel terrible about that." SO if Seattle was more of the same then it holds minimal interest to me.

One of the other campaigns of this same type I played Heroes of Rokugan (Living L5R) had one single overworked campaign admin editor. It had no fancy layout, no art and very little in the way of handouts. Occasionally a module will have a note as part of handouts or a hand drawn map either as part of the players section or to help the GM's mind eye. What a HOR module have is a timely release and typically about 20 pages of dense text, area descriptions, information on character etc. That count doesn't include a cover page, a tips page one some setting and campaign specific things, and the NPC stat blocks. I think that SRM would be well served by adopting this model.

I personally believe that whether as part of missions as a whole or just as stand alone resources for GM"s SRM's first and secondary goals should be 1) To set up a fun campaign one module at a time 2) To make the GM's life easier. These two goals if actualized will accomplish two things that all the pretty lay out just won't. 1) They will attract more players to SRM and SR (which from a company standpoint will drive book sales) 2) They'll attract more GM's willing to make use of the product.

Also I'll just take a moment and disagree with something Wasabi said. I think the panda comlink mod he/she is refering to is primal forces from Denver. Like a lot of Denver modules primal Forces had a mandatory fight/complication scene that is supposed to happen regardless of what precautions the runners take. Denver did this kind of rail roading all the time and it was rather old and tired very quickly. Modules should be fluid and it's understandable that for best results some scenes should be arranged to happen regardless of table specifics, but you couldn't throw a rock in the denver missions without running into a pre-scripted ambush. Also for me Shadowrun has always been at it's face about runners working the shadows between the megacorps and other major organizations, playing bag men for the uninteresting criminal factions of denver (which there were entirely too many of by the by) wasn't very shadowrun to me, others tastes may of course differ.

Actually one thing I did want to cover that I feel would be important:
As it currently stands GM's get nothing for running modules that they have never played. By the technical letter of the rules I can run a module and turn around and play it at a later date although good form as a gamer insists that I kind of keep my mouth shut. This system is very unsatisfying. What I would propose is this, no one may play a mission after having read or ran it,this is implied but not directly spelled out int he campaign rules. However when a GM "eats" a module, that is runs it for the enjoyment of others without having played it themselves there should be a special log sheet just for that. They should get the max karma available to the module and about 5 grand to apply to a character they play of their choosing. Obviously they will not be eligable for faction rewards or any additional monies. TO keep epople honest they would have to put the module down on the characters calendar and pay lifestyle as appropriate. Basically the net goal of this is to not punish GM's for being willing to eat modules. As someone who played some fo the later mods and has already eaten a fair number of early mods so the locals here can play them I will admit this holds a certain appeal for me.

Parting shot: The web site really needs update to reflect the change to Manhattan and maybe that might be a good place to revitalize the process of collecting otucome data for missiosn so we can start maybe reflecting little events in the storyline there. For example how cool would it be to see a scream sheet based on the most common outcome of Burning Bridges and In and Out?

This is actually the reason I can't run any Missions for Bull, since he'll have read all the missions before release, he can't play in them. (I'll still run a table for Bull, TR 11 I promise!) There's nothing explicit written, but all the Mission GMs I know who also play make a point of playing the Mission before they read the mission for GMing if they want to have Mission characters, This makes for some serious scheduling headaches at Origins and GenCon. And if you check the history in thsi forum, you'll see that's the stock answer, Play the Mission before GMing it if you want an Official Mission character.

Instituting a reporting and control procedures is a pain. We don't do it for the players outside of Mission Logs, and attempting to do something for Mission GMs playing characters is not worth the time. It's not just GMs who can get a hold of Missions ahead of time, the entire Denver set is downloadable, and the NY are purchasable. If someone wants to "cheat" they can just go right ahead and "cheat" themselves.

Take a closer look at Jackpoint login in Feral Cities, specifically the Top News Items.
Mark

How about a link to SR missions in the important links Stickie.

I'm gming a home brewed adventure for the group I'm with and only play the missions as a player in another group.

One of the things I like are the missions (I've played two-burning bridges being one of the, I think the other was In and out) being fairly straight forward in terms of plot. This is great for cons and other venues where you are intruducing the game to new players. I also like the fact that in both missions, either the Pink Mohawk or the professional in mirrored shades method would work.

My quip is with the affiliation system, it seems that every AAA corp knows about the run despite the fact that you took great pains to hide what you were doing (going so far as to redirect blame to humanis). My reasoning is that as a shadow runner, if you do your job right, no one but your fixer knows it (what the job was if the fixer was smart is nothing).

Just sticking my nose in 'cuz I have to address this. The delays that occurred after Denver concluded had absolutely nothing to do with the birth of my daughter. For Denver, everything released on a monthly schedule. (With the occasional slippage by a few days.) I can certainly understand why someone who wasn't directly involved in the process might perceive things as being related. They were not.

Yes but that's not a reason to penalize those who are runnign now. Cheaters are going to cheat regardless of what we put into place or not. The question will be what do we put in to control otherwise. All we need is a generic sheet available on the website. "On x Day I ran Y Mod for the following people, and agree recognize because of this I will be ineligable to play Y Mod. Here are the signatures of the people I ran it for." It basically functions like a Generic GM log sheet. You file it with the rest of your characters log sheets, done deal. How hard can that be?



Additionally, yes the stupid and annoying way is the way we've been doing business, but this is a thread about what could possibly be changed about missions. Yes for most people I'm sure it's preferable to play the missions before running them, but in order to break into new areas we've got to have more patient zeros. Lets be as accommodating to those people as possible so that they can spread the word. It's the rare find indeed to get an individual that is entirely willing to run a living campaign but has zero interest in ever playing in it. For those cases when people can't get a table with a campaign admin or a module writer it would streamline the process nicely.

As to mission reporting this doesn't have to be formalized, in fact we could even try it in microcosm at Origins and Gencon where it's easy to poll the table GM's and find out what happen. It would jsut give the world a better livng feel.

Unwanted, potentially useless advice?
Sir, it's my specialty.

And regrets? Yeah, I can help out with that, too.

In no particular order:

1. I’d say it is time for an update to http://www.shadowrun4.com/missions/.
a. Archive Denver and get some links pointing to Battlecorp, especially SRM03-00 Everyone’s Your Friend and the Manhattan.pdf
b. Let’s make is as friendly as possible to newcomers. Navar had some good questions about starting out, but ideally a new group of players should be able to get started with a Missions legal home game from the website alone. It is second nature to the seasoned players, and would be an interesting test to see if a new GM could do it from the existing material and layout.
c. Might not be bad to have some URL pointers linking to Gencon and Origins websites, or any other Con where missions has a major ongoing presence.

2. I really enjoy the Affiliate system of SRM03, and DireRadiant’s suggestion of Corporate affiliation rewards as handouts is a good one.
a. Cutout handouts of the actual objectives might also be handy- instead of taking each player aside, PCs could get a “text PM” from their corp at the start of the game
b. It would be fun to add a bit more depth to the Affiliates- perhaps each corp could have a reoccurring “Handler” NPC to interact with their asset. And when things go horribly, horribly wrong, I imagine it would be nice to know assassin personally.
c. Not a suggestion, but a useful trick: I prepare a matrix with player’s names (or blanks) as column headers, and the affiliate objectives running down the rows. Once a PC hits an objective, they get check mark.

3. I appreciate the less centralized nature of SRM recordkeeping. Logs are enough for me, and if someone’s serious about cheating, undoubtedly they’ll find a way. As long as they're not hurting other players, honestly, they're just cheating themselves out of some great games. Likewise, when I've run or played in the same Mission more than once, each time the players have taken it in very different direction- each time is a unique experience.

4. Go, go living campaign! People generally like the idea of their actions having an impact on the overall universe. Mr. Rackham makes a great example when referring to Burning Bridges appearing in Feral Cities. Any SRM player who’s been through the mod knows it is THEIR actions that caused the Jackpoint blurb! Granted, that is an extreme (and cool) example, but from where I sat, the numerous plot threads in Denver worked out well, especially when one adventure impacted a sequential one, and it gave the impression of game play affecting the universe.

5. Can’t have enough flavor- and more MSG is always a good thing. Keep up the atmosphere and the feeling of living in the 2070s. Walking down the streets or boughs of NYC should be different than Denver or Seattle.

6. I’d love some more across the board guidance about New York, a sort of Mission mechanics follow up to the Manhattan.pdf. For example, do PCs need to go through the SRM03-00 boarder crossing each time they walk into the city, aor what sort of defense does Manhattan mount against water crossings? In Missions, could PCs use the old subway tunnels on a regular basis, and what might a coyote charge to get you into the city with your highly forbidden bang-bangs?

7. How about some weird occasional promos, no/low cost stuff, to hawk SRM? Hand or email out minor certs (similar to the popular Origin/Gencon NERPs ) (perhaps a new extra contact, prototype microdrone, free rez from DocWagon, or upgraded Jackpoint account, etc). Could be as simple as a slip of paper handed out to anyone who stopped by the booth at a con, or a LE NERPs card included in a hardcopy purchase from Battlecorps, even a freebee PDF to be downloaded from Battlecorps account and stapled to your PC. No game breakers, and nothing on the level of the rewards from actually playing a game, just a little Lagniappe.

8. I love the random twists of Missions, and easily integrated diversity is a strength of the SR universe. Am I walking into a combat heavy firefight, a subtitle investigation, social engineering project, or a hammer horror adventure?

9. Perhaps a “Con Special” Mod, not just for the big two, but also available for smaller events. Likewise, maybe another free “Home Only” or a “Store Only” Mod to encourage players to seek out other venues.

10. Let’s push, push, push Mission players to this forum, or an official online location. Keep players connected to Missions throughout the year, even if their only chance play SRM once a year at a Con.

11. Now, this may already exist, since I'm totally unfamiliar with existing small Con support, but how 'bout a generic PDF packet for Con GMs, including handouts for players that give the URL for shadowrun4.com/missions, and DSF. Or easier still, include contact info at the bottom of all missions logs.

12. Finally, and this is sad to say, but given recent events, it may be worth considering what it will take to have Missions stand on its own. What can we do as SRM players to keep Missions alive in the best and worse of times?

The_Dunner: I'll make it a point in the future not to relate the birth of your daughter with the slowdown. From my seat in the cheap seats it seemed logical. Despite the slowdown and birth of your daughter not being related thanks for all you did when you captain'd the Missions ship!


Bull: Its easier for me to accept someone trying to fix things who gets it 70% right than the *hypothetical* polar opposite of someone changing nothing even when something may be in dire need of improvement. Every head of Missions has left their mark so keep the communications open and make it a bit better than you found it and we'll all be glad for the improvements. Just do what you can and stick to the improvement mentality and I think you'll find we SR players are a bit more loyal than you might've previously thought.


Some specific responses to you after your repliesto my original post, Bull:

1. Casazil's frustrations were posted and acknowledged in this thread: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=28592
While acknowledgment is good (and you did so very quickly!) some resolution or at least sharing some progress towards improvement is better. This is NOT NOT NOT criticism of anyone! I'm mentioning it so that down the road GM's can be followed up on when they have serious concerns and some milestones shared. For every GM complaining on these forums there are probably many more feeling but not sharing those same frustrations. I cant reiterate it enough that I'm commenting on the need for good communications and not the specific issues Casazil addressed. The issues he addressed that concern me I addressed elsewhere and are well known.

2. When I mention support for Missions Coordinators only the coordinators can say what is most needed and most difficult for them to obtain. I'm a player so I think in terms of character sheets, printed modules, directions to the bathrooms and dealer's room, and GM's that show up. I'm easy. Missions Coordinators may have different hurdles though like legal releases and incentives to give to GM's to staff the Shadowrun games. I don't claim to know their needs but I've heard some of their frustrations and I'd rather they have hiccups and not gut-punches to deal with. I do not have specific issues on what they need. Seek out the ones who have organized the bigger cons for deficiencies that can be improved upon as well as Best Practices and then get something in place for Mission Coordinators to share with each other how they accomplish putting together the gaming for a given con. When your resources cross-pollinate it can only make things better!

3. On being railroaded there are spoilers involved so I'll PM you with my specific concerns. My hope is that in future releases that modules can have a higher hurdle rather than a flat auto-failure.

4. On the viability and ease of implementation of some of the things I identified I can certainly see your point and would challenge Missions to have Missions Coordinators communicate some Best Practices and share some Points of Contact of the con-staff they interface with of the bigger cons like GC/Origins/DC size cons so we can at least get arrangements the best con-rules permit. This relates to point 2, above, and in my mind means sure cons may have rules against x but person y may be able to except a given room from it or permit it for sales not to exceed $200 or something like that. Tracking those victories means a new Missions Coordinator can take over handling a con and know who's who, whats what, and get tips on ways things got worked out at other cons.

All I'm going to say is that there is already a Missions reporting system as part of the catalyst demo team web site and I report all my games there.

I was part of SRM (and VS before that) when it was stand alone. We worked hard to get backing-- er, Bitrunner worked hard, I was along for the ride-- from "the company" at the time. It's very easy to go stand alone again, and there's no reason to do it at this time, IMO.

Agreed! Company support is the way to go by far... The more the merrier!
These concerns a just a bit of the "Paranoid" negative quality coming out.

OK I just wanted to give my two cents here. Mainly because I am new to missions. Most everyone else seems to be more experienced Missions players.

1. The most frustrating problem I found with Missions, is the lack of online information. The Webiste is obviously out of date. To the point where my initial thought was that Mission must be defunct. Had I not remember seeing it on the schedule at last years Gencon or known to look at Dumpshock, I might have dismissive it. Heck when I asked some of my shadowrun playing friends about Missions, they did not know it exists.

Bottom Line: Missions need to be more visible!

2. Flesh out NYC a little more. Sure Manhattan is great, but what about the other boroughs. Surely it there are still a lot of people there and that means a lot going on. Besides that's where the runners live. Might be nice to know what our homes are like and what might be going on around us. I would love to see some sort of minor mechanic to reflect a background choice of what borough you live in. (example - Maybe lifestyles are cheaper in queens. Say 5%, but a -1 to social tests if anyone knows you live there.) Just something to add some flavor. Just a thought anyway.

3. Maybe a public calendar for games. It would be easier than looking for posts.

Ok so I guess I should chime in here......

As stated in another post yes I have had certain issues that over time brewed up to such a point that I got on my soapbox and rattled on about how this or that was an issue to me.

After that it seems that at least one other SRM GM had similar issues.

To Aaron & Stephen: Thanks for all the work you are doing and have done. To Bull: Welcome to Missions if there is anyway I can help you out I'll try.

In support to Wasabi: Yes the Mission I ran for him and the rest of the group he is in I would say was a massive railroad. It ended with a big hit to every faction in Denver but 1 in hind sight (which is always 100% better) I could have maybe skipped that part of the Mission and then MAYBE that team would have felt better about said Mission.

I'm always open to criticism from players it's the only way I'm going to get better as a GM so please if something I do just doesn't work for you let me know. (I want players to have fun at my games)

So what needs to be worked on?:

1: Any chance we could get signage? At this years Megacon I printed the SR4A cover on a sheet of photo paper and taped it to the door of the room I was in it sorta helped. (I say sorta as the convention center screwed the non-RPGA games by placing them over the log and timber show the next hall over so our foot traffic was limited) (Megacon staff worked to send people our way though)

2: Releases yeah I know big shock me wanting new Missions to run. Also no offence but why only one month before they go on sale we are the Demo Team would it really kill it if we got the missions more than 1 month early?

3: Advertising I agree with KnightRunner and others we need to make Shadowrun Missions more visible what ever we can do for free or as limited cost as possible. Also someone said something about a calendar to show when and where games are being run well we have the thread here on DS but it have every listing that every GM has put up from the time Bitrunner was running the show. I made the comment in that thread that maybe we could delete the old posts or something so that say the only ones that up are like the last months worth? (No offence but those post contain no real info on Shadowrun or Missions)

4: I get the idea new Missions being released at Gencon is a major big deal but would it really big that big of an issue to launch a new Mission at say Dragon*Con or even Megacon. Yes Origins and Gencon are "Gaming Cons" where as Dragon*Con and Megacon are both (I believe) considered "Multi-Media Cons". That does not change that they are both major gaming cons as well. That other game company has been known to premiere new modules at Megacon and here's a shocker the ever tiny Oasis here in Orlando which is mainly an Art / Sci-Fi con.

For now thats what I can think of if more comes to mind I'll post it.

I'm not entirely familiar with the fencing rules myself, as I rarely ever use them. Generally if I (When I'm playing, which is more often these days) or my PCs loot something off an NPC, it's because we want to use it, or in the case of commlinks, we're grabbing data off em. I don't know that we've tried to sell any mundane, non-plot related items. The closest we've come so far I think is we've given a mechanic contact a couple cars we ended up swiping in exchange for favors and/or "Store credit", but that's a bit different anyways.

I'll look at them, but can't make any guarantees or promises. I'm hesitant to make any drastic changes during the middle of a Season, but when we look at starting up a new Season of Missions, it's possible (and probable) a few things may get tweaked, at least.



This is one that, honestly, doesn't bother me, and not even from the "Cheaters" Standpoint, honestly. It's simply a matter of book-keeping and simplicity. It cuts out the need for certain roleplaying, dice-rolling, and an arbiter (a GM) and allows players to take care of upgrades and inventory acquisition between game sessions in a fair and even manner. That way you don't have to bog down a convention game or an in store demo game with a bunch of Shopping.

That said, I know that as a Missions GM, if a player came to me during a game and wanted to try and get a single, specific item, I'd be willing to give them a roll for it, and tell them when to expect it (And sign off on it for their Mission Log). They'd still have to track it on their calender, of course, but it seems only fair.

This is something I may look at more with the FAQ, but again, it won't be till the Season Break.



I'll look into this a bit more too. I know that part of this was by design in SR4. Fixers exist because they have a larger network of contacts than you. But it takes time, because often they're going through multiple people to get items. Connection rating represents a lot of different things, and one of those is how wide and diverse the Fixers network is. That hot new gun he's ordering for you may have had to change hands 4 times before it reached you, because his connection wasn't high enough to automatically know someone who had one.

Its also designed to encourage players not to solely rely on contacts. Keep in mind that you still need an appropriate contact to get an item. The Shaman may have a high Charisma and a high Negotiation, but if he doesn't know someone with access to a gun supply, he's not getting you that gun, and will be at the whims of whatever contacts he's going through.

Bull

Awesome, that's great to hear.

It's been my experience that public gaming does wonders for a game's local rep. Years ago, when I was part of the local college gaming club, we ran Shadowrun up there pretty regularly. It started with one game, but as more players got involved, eventually there were 3 games with about 20 or so players that bounced around between them. Our FLGS went from selling 2-3 copies of new SR books to selling 12+ for the next few years. Eventually people moved on to other games, or just moved on in general, as is wont to happen. But even today Shadowrun still sells more copies at that store than it did prior to that, because a couple of the guys who got involved with our groups still pick the books up, and there's still a couple private games kicking around.

Gamers don't always think about it, but seeing a group of people having a good time with a game in people has an impact on anyone who sees this. I really want to encourage more Missions being run in game stores and at gaming clubs through the Demo team if I can.

Bull

I agree that we need to keep the artwork where we can.

I will say this though... While artwork exists for the players, one reason art is spread out through the modules is that it exists for the GM as well. It not only helps break up the pages so they're not just one Wall of Text after another (Which helps make the pages easier to read, in my experience), the art also helps give the GM a visual idea of the scenes, to help spark their imagination and aid in their descriptions.

I don't know that all the art needs to be shuffled to the back of the book, per se, but I do agree that anything that's a handout or that needs to be shown to the player should be set up to be easily used as a handout, and should definately have art where appropriate.

Of course, this all relies on things like our budget, and art is handled by CGLs Art Director and our layout guys, so it's also not entirely in my hands. But it's something I'll keep in mind and pass along.



I don't disagree with this



This is another of those that falls outside my jurisdiction, but it's something I can pass along. I will say though that having a dedicated laptop around for Online Ordering could be an issue. Heck, *I* don't even have a laptop, let aloe an extra one that can be used for such a thing



What if I say no?

Obviously, I'd like to, and I'm working on getting everything back on track ASAP.

Bull

This is, honestly, a personal opinion that differs with every players. Some folks vastly preferred Denver to New York. Some still like the Seattle Missions from Season 1 the best. Shadowrun has always had a very loosely defined style and theme to it, and one of the appeals of the game has always been how easily it adapts to certain groups playstyles.

Of course, that said, when you're writing a campaign, you kind of have to pick a style and roll with it, and just hope that as many players as possible enjoy it.



If Missions was strictly a fan-driven project, done by fans for fans, with some minor support from the company, that would be fine. However, Missions has evolved into something a bit more than that. It started with Denver, and by the time New York rolled around, we were supporting the Missions project by paying and/or comping the authors, artists, editors, etc. We also wanted to be able to start doing things like the Manhattan eBook. Because of this though, Missions has to be self supporting, which means that we have to be able to sell the products we were producing, to finance later projects. The more we sell, the more we can do. But to sell the books, we need the art, we need the layout. We need the product looking as professional as possible.

This is another area that that's going to fall a bit into that area of Personal Opinion a bit as well. For some folks, the art is important, as they need or want that visual aspect to the adventure, as it helps them as a GM to visualize. For others, it's not so important.

There's a line somewhere between fan project and professional project, and we're trying to aim more toward professional.



Agreed.



Again, see above. I never played Denver myself, so I'm not that familiar with the nuances or the style of the adventures.



GMs never get anything from GMing an adventure, Missions or not, beyond the personal satisfaction of entertaining your friends and a job well done.

However, if you're a part of the Demo team and running Missions as part of the demo program, you do get something from it: Battleshop Credit. If you're running at Origins or Gen Con, we'll work you like a dog, but the rewards are even better.

Now, that said... There's nothing that says you can't play in an adventure you've GMed. Hell, there's nothing saying you can't play through the same Missions more than once. Obviously, you can only get the rewards for the Mission once, and you're cheating yourself a little bit, but... <shrug> Yes, you know the plot line to the adventure if you've GMed it. YOu may even know all the faction rewards and the like, so it's up to you if it's worth doing, and if you consider it "cheating" or not.

Frankly, I will play through any Mission I've already GMed. We've got a Missions campaign going now, and I plan to take advantage of it. I just wont make any choices for the team if I know the plot. But as long as I'm acting in character, doing what my character would do (WHich is pretty easy. Rush isn't exactly a strategist), and I'm not spoiling the fun for the other players,I don't consider it an issue.

This is something that will be addressed in the future in the FAQ, I hope.



I believe this was addressed previously, but I agree.

Bull

That's a matter with CGL, which is a bit beyond our scope with Missions. However, that doesn't stop folks from joining the Demo team and running events over there. I would love to see more global representation for the CGL Demo Team and for Missions.

Bull

Like I said above, I fully plan to run the adventures with Rush. I just know to keep my mouth shut if I know the plot. <shrug>

It's up to each GM to handle this as they like. And it's one of those things you have to deal with when you're the GM. It's true with Missions, or any other plotline. If you read Ghost Cartels, or run Ghost Cartels, you can't really play through it with the same enjoyment later on because you know what happens. This holds true for any RPG on the market, too.

Bull

Heh, I was going to note that you likely meant your "quibble" and not your "quip", but one of the definitions of quip is "A quibble". Weird. Learn something new every day

Anyway, I both agree and disagree with your assertion here. In theory, the corps wouldn't be all knowing, but I also maintain there's no way for runners to ever be completely clear, no matter how careful they are. There's just too many ways to track down information in Shadowrun. Of course, this segways into a whole argument about whether or not shadowrunning is even viable or logically possible in Shadowrun, but whatever. This is a topic that touches on Shadowrun as a whole.

My stance is, runners need to make their rep, and it needs to be made publicly. Because otherwise, you only ever work for one single person (No one else will hire you if they've never heard of you), and you're going to be at that person's whims. ("Go ahead, quit. I'll blackball you so fast, tell every other fixer in the city how you chumped out on the one and only run you ever did for me. Yes, it's a lie, but hey, you've kept everything so quiet, how are they going to know?") But, yeah, that's a whole other conversation and isn't Mission specific.

The affiliation idea only works well if the Corps are nigh omniscient, honestly. In the future we may re-evaluate some of how it works, but... It exists mainly as an interesting extra dimension to the game and campaign. A way to test players, to give them some extra rewards, and on occasion see how far they're willing to go.

Bull

You could... have two copies of artwork, one inline, one at the end!

True. Again, this comes down to art and layout and all that jazz, and I have no idea how much power I wield over them... Maybe if I get all the Infinity Gems... Hrmmm...

Using fancy words makes me feel smurt.

Yeah, I can see that. The paradox of runners getting a rep, and runners being discreete. My one suggestion is to have the Affiliations contact the PC's prior to meeting the Johnson(as further incentive to take the job). I'd strongly encourage that the PCs keep their affiliations a secret too--makes life more interesting--a neo A runner with an Ares affiliated runner working at cross purposes but don't know it.

Speaking of Affiliations, is there any plan to begin scaling the rewards for them based on TR?

THat's an interesting idea. Ideally, I'd like to start scaling the entire adventure, top to bottom, for TR, including Karma rewards. But that's involved and I don't know when we'd be able to start doing that, or if it's even feasible. It does mean a lot more work on the part of the writers and GMs.

Table Rating needs to mean a bit more, IMO. It's a running joke around here that any table I'm at needs to be run at TR 11, but the fact is, I've played several missions at TR 6 now, and thought they weren't really any more difficult than the first couple games I played (TR 2 and TR 4). ANd RUsh only has like 30 karma. Ok, yes, he's a bit of a combat monster, but still

Bull

As the table level increases the nuyen goes up so haveing the karma go up would be a nice thing same for the rewards.

One thing I have heard some players comment on is they do a Mission and at the end they get offered some reward and the players is like eh what ever. The reason for that is say the pure magic guy who will no matter what refuse to get Cyber/Bio yet there is a reward of a delta clinc visit kinda useless to him same for the genetic optimization reward.

So maybe an idea could be that which ever corp your running for could offer say 3 to 5 things as a reward?

I kinda miss Claudia Tyger.







-karma

It'd be nifty if Affiliation rewards could be bought with Karma. While some characters may not be interested the option of either getting a 500 nuyen grenade or spending 1 karma to get a 5000 nuyen rocket the idea seems in my mind to be interesting.

That's why there is trading. We don't kiss and tell about affiliation, but nothing says you have to keep your reward secret.

You get me an appointment at a SRM legal Delta Clinic, and I'll get your guy a force 5 power focus.

Personally, I'm fine with how affiliation rewards currently stand. Sometimes they're great, sometime they're useless, and I think the randomness adds to fun- or better still, takes your PC off in an unexpected direction...."Hmmm, maybe my hacker SHOULD give his new flamethrower a try!"

I wouldn't mind if the reward scales, but that seems like x6 the work for the writers to come up with appropriate bonuses. I think I'd rather the work be put into more mods.

My only peeve is when your faction doesn't tell you about your mission. Very hard to guess most of the time.

Errr I'm 99% sure that affiliation rewards are very specifically non transferable, sellable, or tradeable and something like a delta clinic would be especially so. You can't very well say to your super secret backers. "Hey guys I know i'm not supposed to let people know I work for you and delta clinics are some of the best kept secrets in the world but totally let this dude use my slot 'k thanks"

Further checking of the FAQ and some of the missions and I am unable to find this wierd, although I stand by my point about the delta clinic or for example the enchanting facility or shop another module gives.

Let's stay on topic

In this vein (and based on the conversation going on about the Used Vechicle rules), would it be possible to get an updated FAQ/Guidelines for running/playing Missions? There are a lot of things in the various sourcebooks that aren't specifically listed as being 'optional' but are arguably up to GM caveat.

I got a question?

Why does Missions have to use the BROAD brush when it comes to optional rules?

Yes I get some of them require more work to use than others so why not allow some of the lesser or even non involved optional rules to be useable?

Yes this me pokeing and prodding to get the optional rule that lets adepts take a power point vs. what is mostly a useless Metamagic ability!

As a more general comment than the one above..... the Missions FAQ could use some expansion and updating.

I think I've said this elsewhere, but it's on my ToDo list.

However, it falls somewhere below making sure that we're on schedule and on track for the rest of the current New York arc (4 more, through Mission 12), the Convention stuff (8 more Missions for those) and then planning the next Missions arc which will hopefully start shortly after Mission 03-12 gets released.

This is something i want to work on though.

When i find the time.

Time. Oh precious, precious time...

Bull

Was not trying to be pushy. Just mentioning.

Come to think of it, what are you doing watching the forums? You're too busy for this nonsense. Get back to work already. Geez good help is hard to find these days!

(Joking btw)

With only 4 more Missions in New York, was this a hint that Gencon's Scramble could be the dramatic conclusion for the New York arc?

I've played in the misions for the last 4 Con seasons and from Denver to NYC adn love what ya'll have done, keep up the quality work, and continue to make my vactions fun :0.

1: can we ever get a contact over loyalty 4..you guys keep giving us the same contacts all the time i have Mr. Hong/Carzyhorse Eddie/Peaceman all at loyalty 4..can we push that up to 5 or 6 if we kep running into them and selling gear and giving them newyen

2: loved last years GenCon scramble keep it up..no pressure to out do yourselves thi syear..and If you guys did a scramble at Origins..sign me up

Just keep up the good work, and keep letting me shot it in the face and I'll always find a seat at the table.