Vehicular Movement, The non-ZALGO explanation Options

[kjones]

The first person who can explain to me how vehicular movement (both regular and chase) works in SR4 will receive a cookie and an Internet.

Specifically:

• Why is it called "Acceleration" when it's a speed?
• Why is a Honda Spirit slower than a person?
• What is this I don't even

Thank you.

[svenftw]

The way I understand it, the walking and running acceleration rates are an amount you can *add* to your current speed every turn. You can keep adding it like that until you hit your Speed rating, then you have to start making rolls.

Edit: I think I'm wrong - I think that you have to make a vehicle test to increase the speed beyond your 'running' rate.

For example - a Suzuki Mirage at a standing start wants to hightail it. The rider cranks the throttle and moves 50 meters in the first combat turn. The next turn, the rider makes a Vehicle Test and scores 3 hits over the threshold - now he's moving at 65 meters per turn. He can keep doing that without penalties until he hits 200 meters per turn - the bike's Speed rating.

[Saint Sithney]

The walking rate for a vehicle represents normal acceleration which doesn't draw attention or cause "firing while running" penalties. Running rate is the max acceleration a vehicle can provide just by jamming down the throttle. A player can attempt to increase this acceleration through a vehicle test, analogous to a sprint test. You can compare this to max efficiency manual shifting or torque/grip maximization techniques which make an actual driver better than someone who just says "Make rocket go now!" to the autopilot.

Acceleration, unlike running is cumulative and is maintained by inertia rather than continuous exertion. Every turn, you start off going the same speed as the last turn and can accelerate further from there up to your speed shelf. Once you hit that upper limit, you must make vehicle tests to increase your speed further. This is where you risk crashing. And, anyone wondering about the straight-line acceleration curve should remember that you're dealing with electric motors here. you get the same torque regardless of the speed, sort of like those old rotary engines.

[Lok1 :)]

I actualy have a similer quistion, dose anyone know how far a vechial has to travle to get its full accel bonus? Say my car isn't moveing right now, BUT I want to ram one of the ork gangers who is shooting at my team from only 15 meters away?
How fast can I get in the complex action it takes to slam into the guy?

[Emy]

The walking rate for a vehicle represents normal acceleration which doesn't draw attention or cause "firing while running" penalties. Running rate is the max acceleration a vehicle can provide just by jamming down the throttle. A player can attempt to increase this acceleration through a vehicle test, analogous to a sprint test. You can compare this to max efficiency manual shifting or torque/grip maximization techniques which make an actual driver better than someone who just says "Make rocket go now!" to the autopilot.

Acceleration, unlike running is cumulative and is maintained by inertia rather than continuous exertion. Every turn, you start off going the same speed as the last turn and can accelerate further from there up to your speed shelf. Once you hit that upper limit, you must make vehicle tests to increase your speed further. This is where you risk crashing. And, anyone wondering about the straight-line acceleration curve should remember that you're dealing with electric motors here. you get the same torque regardless of the speed, sort of like those old rotary engines.

Kinda. This isn't a non-ZALGO explanation in the least. Very sneaky, really. On the other hand, it did manage to explain things decently. I hate how some vehicle rules, like handling are easy to deal with, then while "Acceleration" being a term for a vehicle's change in speed makes sense, it's not clearly explained in the rulebooks.

[kjones]

The walking rate for a vehicle represents normal acceleration which doesn't draw attention or cause "firing while running" penalties. Running rate is the max acceleration a vehicle can provide just by jamming down the throttle. A player can attempt to increase this acceleration through a vehicle test, analogous to a sprint test. You can compare this to max efficiency manual shifting or torque/grip maximization techniques which make an actual driver better than someone who just says "Make rocket go now!" to the autopilot.

Acceleration, unlike running is cumulative and is maintained by inertia rather than continuous exertion. Every turn, you start off going the same speed as the last turn and can accelerate further from there up to your speed shelf. Once you hit that upper limit, you must make vehicle tests to increase your speed further. This is where you risk crashing. And, anyone wondering about the straight-line acceleration curve should remember that you're dealing with electric motors here. you get the same torque regardless of the speed, sort of like those old rotary engines.

This makes sense to me, but the zaniness in SR4a (p. 167) seems to define acceleration as the walking and running rates of a car. Should I just flush that worthless definition out of my noggin? Or is the "acceleration means acceleration" definition a houserule?

Also, does the "minute-long combat rounds" thing for chase combat bother anyone else? I have trouble picturing it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This makes sense to me, but the zaniness in SR4a (p. 167) seems to define acceleration as the walking and running rates of a car. Should I just flush that worthless definition out of my noggin? Or is the "acceleration means acceleration" definition a houserule?

Also, does the "minute-long combat rounds" thing for chase combat bother anyone else? I have trouble picturing it.

I always pictured the Acceleration values (Walking/Running) of a vehicle to be their "Standard" acceleration (Walking) and their "Fast" acceleration (Running)... at least, it always made sens to me in that regard...

As for the "Minute Long Rounds," I never really had an issue with that time frame... makes perfect sense in the grand scehme of things... it could have been 10 seconds or 2 minutes... nothing really changes much... I think that they chose a "Minute" as an easy increment... chase scenes take a long time (even in real life these things can go on for minutes and even up to hours)... so the use of a "minute" made it easier than breaking it down to the 3 second intervals, which can give some crazy timings if you really look at it...

Like I said, 1 Minute is an easy increment...

Keep the Faith

[Mantis]

Also keep in mind that this isn't (usually) straight line driving with no obstacles in the way. Both sides are dodging around other cars, cornering, avoiding cross traffic, etc. It's hard to line up and get off shots or try to manoeuver in that situation. You might be trying but you can look at the 1 minute as the time it takes to get a clear shot. Sort of how melee combat doesn't represent I punch you, you punch me combat but rather a series of moves that result in an attack getting through, the longer time in chase combat represents the effort needed to actually find the free space and opportunity to try your manoeuver.

[Werewindlefr]

I don't see acceleration as the amount of speed you gain each turn (there's no rule for that), but the average speed you can get in a tactical situation, which requires constant braking, turning, speeding up. Thus, the average speed you could obtain in such a situation would depend on how strongly your vehicle accelerates, not how much its max speed is.

Acceleration is what matters, because you're way below the max speed anyway, all the time. You want to know how much speed you can get in the very short periods of time when you're actually speeding up.

Your running speed is thus determined by your acceleration: that's the average speed you can maintain in combat with all the maneuveuring/braking/speeding up again.

Acceleration, unlike running is cumulative and is maintained by inertia rather than continuous exertion.

But not in tactical combat, that's the point. Because during the turn, you'll be constantly readjusting your speed, slowing down to almost complete halt, speeding up to 2nd/3rd gear, then turning, etc., so there's no accumulating involved.
Running and Walking are listed as acceleration because in the abstract model of tactical combat, those values are heavily dependent on your acceleration and not at all on your max speed.

[Fatum]

Also, does the "minute-long combat rounds" thing for chase combat bother anyone else? I have trouble picturing it.

Frankly, I've never seen the chase combat rules used - they are just too convoluted and counterintuitive. We've always gone with more direct opposed Vehicle Test approach, with modifiers for Speed and Handling, as suitable.

[Malachi]

Frankly, I've never seen the chase combat rules used - they are just too convoluted and counterintuitive. We've always gone with more direct opposed Vehicle Test approach, with modifiers for Speed and Handling, as suitable.

... which is pretty much what the Chase Combat rules are anyway. Opposed Vehicle Test, with some modifiers (net Speed difference, Handling): winner gets to change relative vehicle range. Pretty simple. If it really bothers you that a Chase Combat turn is 1 minute, just change it. There is nothing fundamental in the rules that is inherently tied to a 1 minute turn. I'm sure the designers chose 1 minute (as previous said) to give an adequate amount of time for vehicles to maneuver around things, speed up, slow down, etc.

[Fatum]

The whole mechanics of tracking distances and it limiting your options is unique, never used anywhere else, and rightly so.

[kjones]

Ok, so if Acceleration is actually a speed and not an acceleration, then this brings me back to my first question - why is a Honda Spirit slower than a person? Does it really make sense that a car (even if it is "moving tactically" or whatever) is just slower than a normal unaugmented human?

(To save you a trip to the books, Honda Spirit has accel 10/20.)

[DMiller]

I've though about this too. It really comes into play when you mix vehicle movement and people on the ground. Lets throw out this situation: you have a team that is feeling a little overwelmed. It consists of 3 humans and a drone (Cyberspace Designs Dragonfly [Accel 10/20, speed 30]). The team decides it's time to flee. The humans can run 25m in the pass, but the drone can only move 20m (even though it's max speed is 30). Next turn the humans are now at 50m away while the drone is only 40m. Eventually the rigger is going to get tired of losing drones to the humans out-running them even though the drones are "faster".

Odd rules about acceleration.

[Lok1 :)]

The movement rules in any rollplaying game are always brocken, it comes with the territory. How it comes into play is up to how the GM handles it.
Writeing a program to help keep track of vechial speed would be easy, but I'm not sure how usefull it would be.
I rember someone wrote some very detailed optional vechial rules and posted them hear, but I seem to have lost the link. Dose anyone hear know he changed/clarifyed the rules in the area? If so could I have a link.

[Saint Sithney]

I don't see acceleration as the amount of speed you gain each turn (there's no rule for that),

The rule isn't an SR rule, it's an English rule. Acceleration has a definition. The book says "Vehicles have an Acceleration rating that determine[s] their movement rates." Acceleration is m/s² and the book never defines it as otherwise. If a vehicle has to turn or otherwise maneuver, then it must either slow or stop its acceleration as needed to engage its preferred enemies. So, if a vehicle needs to stop and turn around, that requires deceleration as it can not continue its acceleration while reversing its direction. But if it is rushing towards a target, then its acceleration can continue unabated. It's really not that hard to suss out as a GM. Hopefully next months PDF exclusive, 30 rides, will help us out in this regard with a series of play-by-play vehicle combat examples.

[hobgoblin]

The whole mechanics of tracking distances and it limiting your options is unique, never used anywhere else, and rightly so.

blue planet uses it in its extended gear book. Its even used for tracking launched weapons and how much time one have to attempt to shake them off.

[Werewindlefr]

The rule isn't an SR rule, it's an English rule.

That's making the assumption that the Acceleration stat' really represent acceleration. Game terminology and English are different things.

[FriendoftheDork]

I don't see acceleration as the amount of speed you gain each turn (there's no rule for that), but the average speed you can get in a tactical situation, which requires constant braking, turning, speeding up. Thus, the average speed you could obtain in such a situation would depend on how strongly your vehicle accelerates, not how much its max speed is.

Acceleration is what matters, because you're way below the max speed anyway, all the time. You want to know how much speed you can get in the very short periods of time when you're actually speeding up.

Your running speed is thus determined by your acceleration: that's the average speed you can maintain in combat with all the maneuveuring/braking/speeding up again.

But not in tactical combat, that's the point. Because during the turn, you'll be constantly readjusting your speed, slowing down to almost complete halt, speeding up to 2nd/3rd gear, then turning, etc., so there's no accumulating involved.
Running and Walking are listed as acceleration because in the abstract model of tactical combat, those values are heavily dependent on your acceleration and not at all on your max speed.

Except sometimes you are chasing another vehicle on a fairly clear highway going 90Mph or faster... there is very limited breaking, and the vehicles are pretty much never stopping at all. Or look at the car chases in COPS, most of the time the speeds of the vehicles are much faster than metahuman walking/running rates.

So sorry, these rules doesen't work if it's intended to mean actual movement modes and not acceleration. Also that means the FAQ would be wrong again (which really shouldn't suprise us).

[Werewindlefr]

Except sometimes you are chasing another vehicle on a fairly clear highway going 90Mph or faster... there is very limited breaking, and the vehicles are pretty much never stopping at all. Or look at the car chases in COPS, most of the time the speeds of the vehicles are much faster than metahuman walking/running rates.

So sorry, these rules doesen't work if it's intended to mean actual movement modes and not acceleration. Also that means the FAQ would be wrong again (which really shouldn't suprise us).

When you're chasing someone, it ceases to be tactical combat and enters "chase" combat, which uses the max speed. Also, as a reply to the earlier comment that the Honda spirit is slower than a running human: it's not in the hands of an experienced driver, since you can add 5/success on the driving test. A human can get to top speed really fast and turn almost on the spot, whereas a Honda Spirit, while relatively easy to handle, is nowhere as good; only a good driver can compensate.

Each Initiative Pass the driver chooses whether the vehicle is moving in its "Walking" or "Running" rate (or stops altogether). Once a rate of movement has been declared, the vehicle moves at that rate until the driver's next Action Phase; the vehicle continues to move at the last rate it was in during passes in which the driver does not have an action. The rate can only be changed when the driver acts again (Movement, p.148, SR4A), or if the vehicle crashes (Crashing, p. 170, SR4A. The driver can attempt to increase the vehicle's movement rate by making a Vehicle Test (p.168, SR4A); each test adds 5 meters to the vehicle's movement rate. A vehicle moving at or greater than its Running rate is considered to be running. A vehicle can move up to its Speed rating without trouble; gamemasters should apply modifiers as they feel appropriate for characters that push the vehicle past the Speed rating (p.168, SR4A).

Well, apparently they're treating "acceleration" as a movement rate, just like I am. Which means it's not really acceleration, but Walking/Running rate, which in situation requiring constant speed change are strong correlated (hence the confusing name).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The whole mechanics of tracking distances and it limiting your options is unique, never used anywhere else, and rightly so.

Our table uses the Chase combat rules, and they work pretty darn well, for what they do...

Why track Distances... Use the categories instead, they work better... Extreme Range, Long Range, Medium Range, Short Range, Close Range...

It is the same as Ranged combat, so it works really well...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ok, so if Acceleration is actually a speed and not an acceleration, then this brings me back to my first question - why is a Honda Spirit slower than a person? Does it really make sense that a car (even if it is "moving tactically" or whatever) is just slower than a normal unaugmented human?

(To save you a trip to the books, Honda Spirit has accel 10/20.)

It isn't... Acceleration is actually what it says... Acceleration... you track your current speed... in teh round, you accelerate... your speed is now what it was teh turn previously + acceleration... Deceleration works the same way...

Keep the Faith

[Werewindlefr]

It isn't... Acceleration is actually what it says... Acceleration... you track your current speed... in teh round, you accelerate... your speed is now what it was teh turn previously + acceleration... Deceleration works the same way...

Keep the Faith

That's not what the rules say. This is your own interpretation.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's not what the rules say. This is your own interpretation.

Indeed it is... and the rules say you use your SPEED differences as well... so...

Keep the Faith

[svenftw]

It isn't... Acceleration is actually what it says... Acceleration... you track your current speed... in teh round, you accelerate... your speed is now what it was teh turn previously + acceleration... Deceleration works the same way...

Keep the Faith

I was thinking (and hoping) it worked like that, but the rules don't support it. As is the case with so many unclear rules in these books, the whole Speed/Acceleration thing seems to be missing a single sentence that would clarify everything and tie all the rules together.