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kjones
The first person who can explain to me how vehicular movement (both regular and chase) works in SR4 will receive a cookie and an Internet.

Specifically:
  • Why is it called "Acceleration" when it's a speed?
  • Why is a Honda Spirit slower than a person?
  • What is this I don't even


Thank you.
svenftw
The way I understand it, the walking and running acceleration rates are an amount you can *add* to your current speed every turn. You can keep adding it like that until you hit your Speed rating, then you have to start making rolls.

Edit: I think I'm wrong - I think that you have to make a vehicle test to increase the speed beyond your 'running' rate.

For example - a Suzuki Mirage at a standing start wants to hightail it. The rider cranks the throttle and moves 50 meters in the first combat turn. The next turn, the rider makes a Vehicle Test and scores 3 hits over the threshold - now he's moving at 65 meters per turn. He can keep doing that without penalties until he hits 200 meters per turn - the bike's Speed rating.
Saint Sithney
The walking rate for a vehicle represents normal acceleration which doesn't draw attention or cause "firing while running" penalties. Running rate is the max acceleration a vehicle can provide just by jamming down the throttle. A player can attempt to increase this acceleration through a vehicle test, analogous to a sprint test. You can compare this to max efficiency manual shifting or torque/grip maximization techniques which make an actual driver better than someone who just says "Make rocket go now!" to the autopilot.

Acceleration, unlike running is cumulative and is maintained by inertia rather than continuous exertion. Every turn, you start off going the same speed as the last turn and can accelerate further from there up to your speed shelf. Once you hit that upper limit, you must make vehicle tests to increase your speed further. This is where you risk crashing. And, anyone wondering about the straight-line acceleration curve should remember that you're dealing with electric motors here. you get the same torque regardless of the speed, sort of like those old rotary engines.
Lok1 :)
I actualy have a similer quistion, dose anyone know how far a vechial has to travle to get its full accel bonus? Say my car isn't moveing right now, BUT I want to ram one of the ork gangers who is shooting at my team from only 15 meters away?
How fast can I get in the complex action it takes to slam into the guy?
Emy
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 23 2010, 06:12 PM) *
The walking rate for a vehicle represents normal acceleration which doesn't draw attention or cause "firing while running" penalties. Running rate is the max acceleration a vehicle can provide just by jamming down the throttle. A player can attempt to increase this acceleration through a vehicle test, analogous to a sprint test. You can compare this to max efficiency manual shifting or torque/grip maximization techniques which make an actual driver better than someone who just says "Make rocket go now!" to the autopilot.

Acceleration, unlike running is cumulative and is maintained by inertia rather than continuous exertion. Every turn, you start off going the same speed as the last turn and can accelerate further from there up to your speed shelf. Once you hit that upper limit, you must make vehicle tests to increase your speed further. This is where you risk crashing. And, anyone wondering about the straight-line acceleration curve should remember that you're dealing with electric motors here. you get the same torque regardless of the speed, sort of like those old rotary engines.


Kinda. This isn't a non-ZALGO explanation in the least. Very sneaky, really. On the other hand, it did manage to explain things decently. I hate how some vehicle rules, like handling are easy to deal with, then while "Acceleration" being a term for a vehicle's change in speed makes sense, it's not clearly explained in the rulebooks.
kjones
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 23 2010, 07:12 PM) *
The walking rate for a vehicle represents normal acceleration which doesn't draw attention or cause "firing while running" penalties. Running rate is the max acceleration a vehicle can provide just by jamming down the throttle. A player can attempt to increase this acceleration through a vehicle test, analogous to a sprint test. You can compare this to max efficiency manual shifting or torque/grip maximization techniques which make an actual driver better than someone who just says "Make rocket go now!" to the autopilot.

Acceleration, unlike running is cumulative and is maintained by inertia rather than continuous exertion. Every turn, you start off going the same speed as the last turn and can accelerate further from there up to your speed shelf. Once you hit that upper limit, you must make vehicle tests to increase your speed further. This is where you risk crashing. And, anyone wondering about the straight-line acceleration curve should remember that you're dealing with electric motors here. you get the same torque regardless of the speed, sort of like those old rotary engines.


This makes sense to me, but the zaniness in SR4a (p. 167) seems to define acceleration as the walking and running rates of a car. Should I just flush that worthless definition out of my noggin? Or is the "acceleration means acceleration" definition a houserule?

Also, does the "minute-long combat rounds" thing for chase combat bother anyone else? I have trouble picturing it.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (kjones @ Mar 23 2010, 06:02 PM) *
This makes sense to me, but the zaniness in SR4a (p. 167) seems to define acceleration as the walking and running rates of a car. Should I just flush that worthless definition out of my noggin? Or is the "acceleration means acceleration" definition a houserule?

Also, does the "minute-long combat rounds" thing for chase combat bother anyone else? I have trouble picturing it.



I always pictured the Acceleration values (Walking/Running) of a vehicle to be their "Standard" acceleration (Walking) and their "Fast" acceleration (Running)... at least, it always made sens to me in that regard...

As for the "Minute Long Rounds," I never really had an issue with that time frame... makes perfect sense in the grand scehme of things... it could have been 10 seconds or 2 minutes... nothing really changes much... I think that they chose a "Minute" as an easy increment... chase scenes take a long time (even in real life these things can go on for minutes and even up to hours)... so the use of a "minute" made it easier than breaking it down to the 3 second intervals, which can give some crazy timings if you really look at it...

Like I said, 1 Minute is an easy increment...

Keep the Faith
Mantis
Also keep in mind that this isn't (usually) straight line driving with no obstacles in the way. Both sides are dodging around other cars, cornering, avoiding cross traffic, etc. It's hard to line up and get off shots or try to manoeuver in that situation. You might be trying but you can look at the 1 minute as the time it takes to get a clear shot. Sort of how melee combat doesn't represent I punch you, you punch me combat but rather a series of moves that result in an attack getting through, the longer time in chase combat represents the effort needed to actually find the free space and opportunity to try your manoeuver.
Werewindlefr
I don't see acceleration as the amount of speed you gain each turn (there's no rule for that), but the average speed you can get in a tactical situation, which requires constant braking, turning, speeding up. Thus, the average speed you could obtain in such a situation would depend on how strongly your vehicle accelerates, not how much its max speed is.

Acceleration is what matters, because you're way below the max speed anyway, all the time. You want to know how much speed you can get in the very short periods of time when you're actually speeding up.

Your running speed is thus determined by your acceleration: that's the average speed you can maintain in combat with all the maneuveuring/braking/speeding up again.

QUOTE
Acceleration, unlike running is cumulative and is maintained by inertia rather than continuous exertion.
But not in tactical combat, that's the point. Because during the turn, you'll be constantly readjusting your speed, slowing down to almost complete halt, speeding up to 2nd/3rd gear, then turning, etc., so there's no accumulating involved.
Running and Walking are listed as acceleration because in the abstract model of tactical combat, those values are heavily dependent on your acceleration and not at all on your max speed.
Fatum
QUOTE (kjones @ Mar 24 2010, 04:02 AM) *
Also, does the "minute-long combat rounds" thing for chase combat bother anyone else? I have trouble picturing it.


Frankly, I've never seen the chase combat rules used - they are just too convoluted and counterintuitive. We've always gone with more direct opposed Vehicle Test approach, with modifiers for Speed and Handling, as suitable.
Malachi
QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 23 2010, 09:12 PM) *
Frankly, I've never seen the chase combat rules used - they are just too convoluted and counterintuitive. We've always gone with more direct opposed Vehicle Test approach, with modifiers for Speed and Handling, as suitable.

... which is pretty much what the Chase Combat rules are anyway. Opposed Vehicle Test, with some modifiers (net Speed difference, Handling): winner gets to change relative vehicle range. Pretty simple. If it really bothers you that a Chase Combat turn is 1 minute, just change it. There is nothing fundamental in the rules that is inherently tied to a 1 minute turn. I'm sure the designers chose 1 minute (as previous said) to give an adequate amount of time for vehicles to maneuver around things, speed up, slow down, etc.
Fatum
The whole mechanics of tracking distances and it limiting your options is unique, never used anywhere else, and rightly so.
kjones
Ok, so if Acceleration is actually a speed and not an acceleration, then this brings me back to my first question - why is a Honda Spirit slower than a person? Does it really make sense that a car (even if it is "moving tactically" or whatever) is just slower than a normal unaugmented human?

(To save you a trip to the books, Honda Spirit has accel 10/20.)
DMiller
I've though about this too. It really comes into play when you mix vehicle movement and people on the ground. Lets throw out this situation: you have a team that is feeling a little overwelmed. It consists of 3 humans and a drone (Cyberspace Designs Dragonfly [Accel 10/20, speed 30]). The team decides it's time to flee. The humans can run 25m in the pass, but the drone can only move 20m (even though it's max speed is 30). Next turn the humans are now at 50m away while the drone is only 40m. Eventually the rigger is going to get tired of losing drones to the humans out-running them even though the drones are "faster".

Odd rules about acceleration.
Lok1 :)
The movement rules in any rollplaying game are always brocken, it comes with the territory. How it comes into play is up to how the GM handles it.
Writeing a program to help keep track of vechial speed would be easy, but I'm not sure how usefull it would be.
I rember someone wrote some very detailed optional vechial rules and posted them hear, but I seem to have lost the link. Dose anyone hear know he changed/clarifyed the rules in the area? If so could I have a link.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Werewindlefr @ Mar 23 2010, 06:54 PM) *
I don't see acceleration as the amount of speed you gain each turn (there's no rule for that),

The rule isn't an SR rule, it's an English rule. Acceleration has a definition. The book says "Vehicles have an Acceleration rating that determine[s] their movement rates." Acceleration is m/s and the book never defines it as otherwise. If a vehicle has to turn or otherwise maneuver, then it must either slow or stop its acceleration as needed to engage its preferred enemies. So, if a vehicle needs to stop and turn around, that requires deceleration as it can not continue its acceleration while reversing its direction. But if it is rushing towards a target, then its acceleration can continue unabated. It's really not that hard to suss out as a GM. Hopefully next months PDF exclusive, 30 rides, will help us out in this regard with a series of play-by-play vehicle combat examples.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 24 2010, 05:32 AM) *
The whole mechanics of tracking distances and it limiting your options is unique, never used anywhere else, and rightly so.

blue planet uses it in its extended gear book. Its even used for tracking launched weapons and how much time one have to attempt to shake them off.
Werewindlefr
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 24 2010, 12:47 AM) *
The rule isn't an SR rule, it's an English rule.

That's making the assumption that the Acceleration stat' really represent acceleration. Game terminology and English are different things.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Werewindlefr @ Mar 24 2010, 03:54 AM) *
I don't see acceleration as the amount of speed you gain each turn (there's no rule for that), but the average speed you can get in a tactical situation, which requires constant braking, turning, speeding up. Thus, the average speed you could obtain in such a situation would depend on how strongly your vehicle accelerates, not how much its max speed is.

Acceleration is what matters, because you're way below the max speed anyway, all the time. You want to know how much speed you can get in the very short periods of time when you're actually speeding up.

Your running speed is thus determined by your acceleration: that's the average speed you can maintain in combat with all the maneuveuring/braking/speeding up again.

But not in tactical combat, that's the point. Because during the turn, you'll be constantly readjusting your speed, slowing down to almost complete halt, speeding up to 2nd/3rd gear, then turning, etc., so there's no accumulating involved.
Running and Walking are listed as acceleration because in the abstract model of tactical combat, those values are heavily dependent on your acceleration and not at all on your max speed.


Except sometimes you are chasing another vehicle on a fairly clear highway going 90Mph or faster... there is very limited breaking, and the vehicles are pretty much never stopping at all. Or look at the car chases in COPS, most of the time the speeds of the vehicles are much faster than metahuman walking/running rates.

So sorry, these rules doesen't work if it's intended to mean actual movement modes and not acceleration. Also that means the FAQ would be wrong again (which really shouldn't suprise us).
Werewindlefr
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Mar 24 2010, 02:25 AM) *
Except sometimes you are chasing another vehicle on a fairly clear highway going 90Mph or faster... there is very limited breaking, and the vehicles are pretty much never stopping at all. Or look at the car chases in COPS, most of the time the speeds of the vehicles are much faster than metahuman walking/running rates.

So sorry, these rules doesen't work if it's intended to mean actual movement modes and not acceleration. Also that means the FAQ would be wrong again (which really shouldn't suprise us).


When you're chasing someone, it ceases to be tactical combat and enters "chase" combat, which uses the max speed. Also, as a reply to the earlier comment that the Honda spirit is slower than a running human: it's not in the hands of an experienced driver, since you can add 5/success on the driving test. A human can get to top speed really fast and turn almost on the spot, whereas a Honda Spirit, while relatively easy to handle, is nowhere as good; only a good driver can compensate.

QUOTE
Each Initiative Pass the driver chooses whether the vehicle is moving in its "Walking" or "Running" rate (or stops altogether). Once a rate of movement has been declared, the vehicle moves at that rate until the driver's next Action Phase; the vehicle continues to move at the last rate it was in during passes in which the driver does not have an action. The rate can only be changed when the driver acts again (Movement, p.148, SR4A), or if the vehicle crashes (Crashing, p. 170, SR4A. The driver can attempt to increase the vehicle's movement rate by making a Vehicle Test (p.168, SR4A); each test adds 5 meters to the vehicle's movement rate. A vehicle moving at or greater than its Running rate is considered to be running. A vehicle can move up to its Speed rating without trouble; gamemasters should apply modifiers as they feel appropriate for characters that push the vehicle past the Speed rating (p.168, SR4A).

Well, apparently they're treating "acceleration" as a movement rate, just like I am. Which means it's not really acceleration, but Walking/Running rate, which in situation requiring constant speed change are strong correlated (hence the confusing name).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 23 2010, 10:32 PM) *
The whole mechanics of tracking distances and it limiting your options is unique, never used anywhere else, and rightly so.


Our table uses the Chase combat rules, and they work pretty darn well, for what they do...

Why track Distances... Use the categories instead, they work better... Extreme Range, Long Range, Medium Range, Short Range, Close Range...

It is the same as Ranged combat, so it works really well...

Keep the Faith
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (kjones @ Mar 23 2010, 10:39 PM) *
Ok, so if Acceleration is actually a speed and not an acceleration, then this brings me back to my first question - why is a Honda Spirit slower than a person? Does it really make sense that a car (even if it is "moving tactically" or whatever) is just slower than a normal unaugmented human?

(To save you a trip to the books, Honda Spirit has accel 10/20.)



It isn't... Acceleration is actually what it says... Acceleration... you track your current speed... in teh round, you accelerate... your speed is now what it was teh turn previously + acceleration... Deceleration works the same way...

Keep the Faith
Werewindlefr
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 24 2010, 12:20 PM) *
It isn't... Acceleration is actually what it says... Acceleration... you track your current speed... in teh round, you accelerate... your speed is now what it was teh turn previously + acceleration... Deceleration works the same way...

Keep the Faith

That's not what the rules say. This is your own interpretation.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Werewindlefr @ Mar 24 2010, 10:52 AM) *
That's not what the rules say. This is your own interpretation.


Indeed it is... and the rules say you use your SPEED differences as well... so...

Keep the Faith
svenftw
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 24 2010, 09:20 AM) *
It isn't... Acceleration is actually what it says... Acceleration... you track your current speed... in teh round, you accelerate... your speed is now what it was teh turn previously + acceleration... Deceleration works the same way...

Keep the Faith


I was thinking (and hoping) it worked like that, but the rules don't support it. As is the case with so many unclear rules in these books, the whole Speed/Acceleration thing seems to be missing a single sentence that would clarify everything and tie all the rules together.
Malachi
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Mar 24 2010, 01:25 AM) *
Except sometimes you are chasing another vehicle on a fairly clear highway going 90Mph or faster... there is very limited breaking, and the vehicles are pretty much never stopping at all. Or look at the car chases in COPS, most of the time the speeds of the vehicles are much faster than metahuman walking/running rates.

So sorry, these rules doesen't work if it's intended to mean actual movement modes and not acceleration. Also that means the FAQ would be wrong again (which really shouldn't suprise us).

The FAQ is right, according to what is written: they are intended to be actual movement rates. Yes, this creates some truly ridiculous situations. Tactical Combat works great when dealing with low-speed situations, especially a mix of vehicles (drones) and people. In any other situation, where everyone is in vehicles racing along, then Chase Combat rules should be used instead.
Werewindlefr
QUOTE (Malachi @ Mar 24 2010, 02:42 PM) *
The FAQ is right, according to what is written: they are intended to be actual movement rates. Yes, this creates some truly ridiculous situations. Tactical Combat works great when dealing with low-speed situations, especially a mix of vehicles (drones) and people. In any other situation, where everyone is in vehicles racing along, then Chase Combat rules should be used instead.

If it works well, then it's not ridiculous. It's just you should change to the Chase rules when appropriate.

I think those rules work well: when it's a bunch of vehicles mixed with a couple pedestrians with rocket launchers, it's all going to be low speed. Think about Battlefield for those who've played it: you're never shooting at a guy behind cover at 50 mph, cause you'd miss your target. In tactical situation, the tanks never reach top speed.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Werewindlefr @ Mar 24 2010, 03:21 PM) *
If it works well, then it's not ridiculous. It's just you should change to the Chase rules when appropriate.

I think those rules work well: when it's a bunch of vehicles mixed with a couple pedestrians with rocket launchers, it's all going to be low speed. Think about Battlefield for those who've played it: you're never shooting at a guy behind cover at 50 mph, cause you'd miss your target. In tactical situation, the tanks never reach top speed.



That may be true, but then again, Tanks are not moving 200 Meters per Minute either (in a running Fight, this would be tantamount to suicide)... I have seen tanks hit targets at a fair clip (M1 Tanks anyways), as well as gunners using vehicle mounted weapons on moving vehicles... so your analogy is not entirely accurate...

Keep the Faith
svenftw
Think of it this way - if you were in tactical combat and you accelerated like Tymeaus describes (which I actually agree sounds reasonable, it just doesn't follow the rules) - you'd drive yourself right out of the tactical situation regardless. If another vehicle went after you, you'd switch to Chase Combat, if not you'd just take any characters in that vehicle out of initiative order.

When you look at it like that, the "acceleration values are movement rates" rule makes a modicum of sense.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 24 2010, 11:39 PM) *
That may be true, but then again, Tanks are not moving 200 Meters per Minute either (in a running Fight, this would be tantamount to suicide)... I have seen tanks hit targets at a fair clip (M1 Tanks anyways), as well as gunners using vehicle mounted weapons on moving vehicles... so your analogy is not entirely accurate...

Keep the Faith

the main gun on a M1 is highly sensor assisted. First the target is painted with a laser designator, then a computer use a gyro to keep the barrel at the right elevation and direction independent of the vehicles movement. Only thing the gunner have to do is verify that its a valid target and push the button.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams#Aiming

this is the SR equivalent of getting a sensor lock before firing.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (svenftw @ Mar 24 2010, 03:48 PM) *
Think of it this way - if you were in tactical combat and you accelerated like Tymeaus describes (which I actually agree sounds reasonable, it just doesn't follow the rules) - you'd drive yourself right out of the tactical situation regardless. If another vehicle went after you, you'd switch to Chase Combat, if not you'd just take any characters in that vehicle out of initiative order.

When you look at it like that, the "acceleration values are movement rates" rule makes a modicum of sense.



I think that there has been a miscommunication on my part... what I am describing IS Chase Combat, not tactical movement... when "Chase Combat" ensues, that is what we use, we do not try to make it fit the tactical situation as it quickly moves beyond that... as it tends to do in real life...

Tactical personnel are left wondering what happened when their targets quickly accelerate away from their carefully laid plans... that is what makes it CHASE COMBAT not tactical engagements...

Keep the Faith
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Malachi @ Mar 24 2010, 07:42 PM) *
The FAQ is right, according to what is written: they are intended to be actual movement rates. Yes, this creates some truly ridiculous situations. Tactical Combat works great when dealing with low-speed situations, especially a mix of vehicles (drones) and people. In any other situation, where everyone is in vehicles racing along, then Chase Combat rules should be used instead.


The FAQ isn't right, it contradicts itself. It says Acceleration is movement, and then it shows an example of a vehicle moving faster than the Acceleration allows to begin with and increases the speed even more based on the Acceleration rating.. see my older post in the FAQ thread for details. No one has yet tried to explain to me what the FAQ actually says or what the rules mean... which is why we have this ZALGO thread to begin with.

I don't really see a need for a tactical combat speed rules where cars suddenly are slower than human at all, no matter how well it "works." People driving vehicles have the advantage of being able to get to a very high speed fairly quickly (even if the acceleration compared to top speed is alot less than a human's).

Having Acceleration be acceleration however should work well enough and not be so silly.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Mar 25 2010, 10:48 AM) *
The FAQ isn't right, it contradicts itself. It says Acceleration is movement, and then it shows an example of a vehicle moving faster than the Acceleration allows to begin with and increases the speed even more based on the Acceleration rating.

No. While movement rates are fixed in SR4, you can extend them by making a test to sprint. For charakters that an additional 2m/KR per hit, for vehicels, it's 5m/KR per net hit.

You are confusing the latter with part of the walking movement rate in the example.
DuctShuiTengu
QUOTE (kjones @ Mar 24 2010, 05:39 AM) *
Ok, so if Acceleration is actually a speed and not an acceleration, then this brings me back to my first question - why is a Honda Spirit slower than a person? Does it really make sense that a car (even if it is "moving tactically" or whatever) is just slower than a normal unaugmented human?

(To save you a trip to the books, Honda Spirit has accel 10/20.)


A little experiment for you to try that should help illustrate why this is the case. You'll need:
  • An empty parking lot
  • A car
  • 5-10 small beanbags


  1. Go out into the middle of the parking lot.
  2. Toss the beanbags in different directions and distances.
  3. Get in your car and drive, in order, to where each of the beanbags landed as quickly as you can safely manage.
  4. Get out of the car and repeat step 3 on foot.
  5. Now imagine repeating this at the mall on a busy shopping day. (Just imagine, I'm not responsible for any wrecks you cause speeding around a crowded parking lot.)


Sure, given more freedom of movement, your car can almost certainly go faster than you can run. However, tactical combat (where acceleration-as-movement comes up) isn't taking place in situations where it has that kind of freedom (or if it does, it's moving out of the area where tactical combat is taking place). The low movement rates in tactical combat also cover the amount of extra time that the vehicle spends accelerating, decelerating, and turning - all of which a pedestrian can do almost instantly.
hobgoblin
what the faq seems to say, imo, is that if you stay within the running part of the acceleration number, you can pretty much treat them the same as movement rates for metahumans. But you can also use them as acceleration rates.

so if you start out at 0, and then decide to "run" when in control of a vehicle, you accelerate up to a speed equal to the run part of the vehicles acceleration score. If you then decide to stay at that speed, you can come to a stop at any moment. But if you decide to accelerate again, of if you decided to take a vehicle test to add to the acceleration score, the vehicle equivalent of a athletics test for sprinting, the vehicles speed is now higher then the running part of the acceleration score, and will not be able to come to a halt on a single pass.
Rotbart van Dainig
Unfortunately, the Walker Mod does not address this – in fact, it even halves movement rates. If the rationale for Acceleration is official, that should be errata'd to doubling Acceleration while halving Speed.

Turbocharger and Motor Tuning, on the other hand improve them.
Malachi
If I had my wish, the next errata would overhaul the vehicle movement rules. Until then, we work with what we've got.
AngelisStorm
QUOTE (Malachi @ Mar 25 2010, 11:48 AM) *
If I had my wish, the next errata would overhaul the vehicle movement rules. Until then, we work with what we've got.


(Or ignore what we've got...)
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 25 2010, 10:56 AM) *
No. While movement rates are fixed in SR4, you can extend them by making a test to sprint. For charakters that an additional 2m/KR per hit, for vehicels, it's 5m/KR per net hit.

You are confusing the latter with part of the walking movement rate in the example.


I'm talking with the part that begins with the vehicle driving over it's Acceleration.

" Shadrach the Sasquatch is driving a GMC Bulldog Step-Van, which has Speed 90 and Acceleration 5/10. Moving along at 30 m/CT along I-4, Shadrach suddenly drives into a Yakuza/Mafia gunfight! The combat has 2 Initiative Passes; at its current movement rate (30 m/CT) the van will cover 15 meters every Action Phase."

In this example the vehicle is going 3 times it's running speed. That's not even possible without getting 4 hits on a driving test, or in other words, an outstanding success. Note that most driver probably only have 2-3 dice on their test to begin with. The example continues with the driver increasing his speed to 40 m/t.. using one of his hits on a driving test... wtf? It also seems to assume that going this speed on a highway (I-4?) requires a difficult vehicle test similar to being crashed into or shot half apart... figures.

Now would it ruin the system if we just assume Acceleration lives up to it's name? "Walking" Acc. is standard, while "Running" Acc. would infer penalties for movement (in addition for penalties for shooting out of a moving vehicle). The GM is of course free to require lower speeds in an area with lots of other cars and obstacles, but I don't think we should assume this as the default setting.
svenftw
That's the same thing I was talking about earlier. The FAQ says Acceleration is a movement rate, then right there in the example he's cruising down the highway at well above his "movement rate". How did he get there?

I think somebody missed a sentence or two in the FAQ.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Mar 25 2010, 06:32 PM) *
That's not even possible without getting 4 hits on a driving test, or in other words, an outstanding success.

So then your point is that it's possible by RAW?

The problem is the area between tactical combat and chase combat, basically drive-by combat.
Slyck
Well, by the example in the faq there is one difference between character movement and vehicle movement that people are missing. I know I missed it and I think I'm gonna look in my Rules to see if it's there.

It appears that when you "sprint" in a vehicle, net hits add to your current movement rate rather then recalculating from base movement rates. Hence the vehicle in the example only needed four hits over some number of phases previously to get up to 30m/CT rather then having to make them all at once.
Slyck
Double post.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 25 2010, 06:48 PM) *
So then your point is that it's possible by RAW?

The problem is the area between tactical combat and chase combat, basically drive-by combat.


Possible, but unlikely except by a professional driver. Which still is silly. Why should there be a need to differentiate movement between tactical and chase combat at all? After all humans have the same movement regardless whether they're walking in the sidewalk, chasing after a target, or taking cover to shoot at an enemy.


QUOTE (Slyck @ Mar 25 2010, 07:02 PM) *
Well, by the example in the faq there is one difference between character movement and vehicle movement that people are missing. I know I missed it and I think I'm gonna look in my Rules to see if it's there.

It appears that when you "sprint" in a vehicle, net hits add to your current movement rate rather then recalculating from base movement rates. Hence the vehicle in the example only needed four hits over some number of phases previously to get up to 30m/CT rather then having to make them all at once.


Except the vehicle rules also say that NO test is required for normal driving. I'd say getting a vehicle up to 10 m/s should be automatic and not require a test by itself. Other cirumstances should require a test, but not simply accelerating.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Mar 25 2010, 10:07 PM) *
Why should there be a need to differentiate movement between tactical and chase combat at all?

Uh see rationale provided in this thread.
kjones
Thank you for bringing up the FAQ example - this is exactly what I don't understand. The fact that he starts off moving at 30m/ct seems to imply that this isn't hard to do, but if he has to make a driving check... is this just because he is not considered to be in "tactical movement" before he is attacked?
Slyck
If, as I understand it, net hits on your go fasta test add to your current speed then it wouldn't be too difficult to get to any speed you want given enough passes (and a low enough terrain threshold modifier). For example;

I'm driving along in open terrain (+0 modifier) at a running speed of 20m/CT at the start of a turn that has 2 phases in it.

Phase 1: I move 10m. I want to speed up so I spend an action and roll, getting 2 net successes. Now I'm going 30m/CT (20+2*5).

Phase 2: I move 15m. I want to speed up so I spend an action and roll, getting 3 net successes. Now I'm going 45m/CT (30+3*5).

End of turn: I didn't spend any actions controlling my vehicle so I make a crash test. Critical glitch! I slam into a wall at 45m/CT and die in a horrible ball of flames.
AndyZ
In my humble opinion, wheeled vehicles should use rules where acceleration and deceleration use the rules Tymaeus suggested, and walkers use the rules currently in the FAQ.

Actually, it might be best for walker drones to to walk and run pretty much the same way as metahumans, with vehicle tests being made to sprint but that the bonus from sprinting only applies per pass in the same way as sprinting does for metahumans.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Slyck @ Mar 25 2010, 10:50 PM) *
If, as I understand it, net hits on your go fasta test add to your current speed then it wouldn't be too difficult to get to any speed you want given enough passes (and a low enough terrain threshold modifier). For example;

I'm driving along in open terrain (+0 modifier) at a running speed of 20m/CT at the start of a turn that has 2 phases in it.

Phase 1: I move 10m. I want to speed up so I spend an action and roll, getting 2 net successes. Now I'm going 30m/CT (20+2*5).

Phase 2: I move 15m. I want to speed up so I spend an action and roll, getting 3 net successes. Now I'm going 45m/CT (30+3*5).

End of turn: I didn't spend any actions controlling my vehicle so I make a crash test. Critical glitch! I slam into a wall at 45m/CT and die in a horrible ball of flames.


This is somewhat concurrent with the FAQ. Although I can't see how making a test to drive fasta doesen't count as an action "controlling a vehicle." Reading the morning paper? Crash. Shooting out a window? Crash. Driving .... crash?
Slyck
Yeah, I took a look at the rules last night and that whole end-of-turn bit is wrong by all accounts, so just take t as colourful narrative.

The only difference that I saw in the RAW between character and vehicle movement is that sprinting adds to running rate and driving faster adds to movement rate. I can see where the confusion comes from, so I'm gonna try running with my understanding from above.

What's bothering me now is what's the difference between a vehicle's walking and running rate? What penalties should it incur from running? There's already a penalty for shooting from a moving vehicle, but do you maybe apply the -2 for running to any gunnery tests?
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