The CGL situation p3 Options

[Dread Moores]

Your assumption in all this is that Topps is completely, blissfully ignorant of the whole thing. I can all but assure you that they are not. There's an assload of stuff going on behind the scenes, and I can all but guarantee you (based on nothing more than my knowledge of the people involved) that Topps knows that there's a serious situation going on at CGL involving money. I don't know the specifics of the license contract between Topps and CGL, but I think it's reasonably certain that there's a great deal of communication (or at least attempts at communication), through legal channels if necessary, between the two parties. Knowing Randall, he's probably been in contact with them a very great deal recently.

Patrick covers this much better than I did. I still don't understand some of the community's reasoning here. We're cheering Frank for telling Topps what they already know? On a non-corporate affiliated, fan-run message board? Seems kind of like an indirect way to make Topps aware of this information they're completely unaware (so completely, clearly already aware) of. I haven't really paid attention to these forums in a while, but it seems to have become a really destructive minded place, rather than constructive like I remembered it. Rosy-colored glasses and all that I guess.

[Method]

I wouldn't say this is representative of DS.

[Dread Moores]

I wouldn't say this is representative of DS.

Between this and how many threads seem to degenerate into defining and worshipping RAW, or how much SR4 sucks, I'm not feeling real strong about the presentation the DS community gives. Things change, but I guess I'm just a little surprised by what this place has changed into.

[Khyron]

I'm guessing Topps doesn't care about the CGL situation short of if they can pay the fees or not. They're in it for the money, not the fans, not the books, not the fancy custom dice. The money, which for them is the licensing fees.

Now it seems to be the general thought that if CGL does go down, it'll be picked up immediately and everything will be grand. But you know, what if it isn't? What if it sits for a decade because other companies see it as bad luck or think it's fanbase is too small to make enough money? Where does that leave the fans or freelancers?

[Patrick Goodman]

I wouldn't say this is representative of DS.

I wish I could say that, but I've been burned here before, so I might still be a little bitter. I'd much rather believe you were right.

[Method]

I think you get the good and the bad. Yes there are rules lawyers. Yes there are politics (you get that as a by-product of having around people who produce SR in an official capacity- having those people is a *good* thing). But most people are cool, the mods are moderate, and if you aren't into number crunching or rules lawyering there is still a wealth of great ideas and lots of good fan-generated material. I would also point out that there are plenty of voices defending CGL's decisions or denouncing Franks approach- they just don't demand as much attention, which is the nature of things.

You take the good, you take the bad and in between... facts of life. Yeah, I went there...

[Bob Lord of Evil]

So let me get this straight...Topps (a company that was recently purchased for 385 million dollars) is so bereft of timely and accurate information that they need to have their employees monitor the Dumpshock forums for the inside scoop...seriously??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

You know this whole..."We as fans have a right to know the most intimate inner workings of company X because we buy their product and have a vested interest in the property!"...makes me want to do the following...

A) Point out that Shadowrun is a game and a fictional setting not Toyota selling Prius's with sticky accelerators.

B) Look for the Thorazine.

As far as Frank's motivation...if ya see a guy holding a hatchet covered in blood you can be relatively certain that they just did a hatchet job on somebody or something.

Somebody(s) is in breach of their NDA...they violated their contract...it doesn't matter why or that they had a third party do it for them. If they want to get paid my advice is don't set the checkbook on fire.

[urgru]

Ancient History and Jennifer Harding have said in print that they have no intention of working for the company without substantial changes. Changes that Randall Bills has said that he has received a sign from God that he will not make. I view this claim as being rather more drastic than a mere corporate puff piece about how things are happening internally and there is an information blackout while that happens. I do not believe that this approach is compatible with Catalyst continuing to be a viable entity. It certainly isn't compatible with me being able to purchase and read a copy of Sixth World Almanac. Because as things currently stand, only a new company with the Shadowrun license could enter into serious negotiations to buy up the contracts to print the material that was written.

I'm not a Shadowrun player, but I find the setting interesting, buy the books occasionally, and have lurked Dumpshock for ages. I'm appalled that Frank's flagrant and offensive comments regarding Randall's faith are being tolerated. If nothing else, they should be excised from his posts by the mod's powerful orange pens.

The letter made clear that lots of folks have been asking Randall WHY and HOW he can continue a business relationship with Loren Coleman. It's a state of mind question, not something that's going to be answered factually. That Randall referenced his faith as something he's turned to at a very difficult time and has influenced his thought process is hardly shocking. He notes that he's felt "rage" and that, in part because he's drawn strength and guidance from his faith, he's attempting to overcome anger and feel compassion and forgiveness that will allow him to move on.

There's no suggestion in the letter that anyone received a "sign from God," nor does Randall mention Jesus. Derisively referring to a "loving Jesus" and describing Randall as "Jesus' sock puppet" for attempting to be something other than a ball of fury is . . . well, it doesn't belong here. It doesn't belong anywhere. That there's another cheap shot in THIS post, after being warned about religious references in the last thread, shows that Frank simply doesn't care about anything but his self-identified goal: taking down Catalyst. Apparently he's willing to stoop to ANY level in order to paint management in a poor light.

There's plenty in the letter to disagree with or doubt without racing to the bottom and throwing cheap religious barbs about, if one is so inclined.

[Centurion13]

You know this whole..."We as fans have a right to know the most intimate inner workings of company X because we buy their product and have a vested interest in the property!"...makes me want to do the following...

That is the part that has me scratching my head. What, exactly, makes any of us more than spectators? Some of us didn't get paid on time - fair enough. But the rest of the people behind the comments?

Cent13

[Ancient History]

I'm not a Shadowrun player, but I find the setting interesting, buy the books occasionally, and have lurked Dumpshock for ages. I'm appalled that Frank's flagrant and offensive comments regarding Randall's faith are being tolerated.

Less "tolerated" and more "we don't want to get banned for talking about it any more."

[knasser]

I'm guessing Topps doesn't care about the CGL situation short of if they can pay the fees or not. They're in it for the money, not the fans, not the books, not the fancy custom dice. The money, which for them is the licensing fees.

Now it seems to be the general thought that if CGL does go down, it'll be picked up immediately and everything will be grand. But you know, what if it isn't? What if it sits for a decade because other companies see it as bad luck or think it's fanbase is too small to make enough money? Where does that leave the fans or freelancers?

My logic on all this, for what it's worth, is that Catalyst has put out some good Shadowrun books. I'm also waiting for some more good Shadowrun books that were promised. Given what has happened, my ideal situation would be for the wrong-doers to have to repay the money taken in short order and CGL to get back on its feet asap and give me and everyone else more good books. The problems are two-fold. The first is that Frank says CGL wont be able to do this due to the extent of the problem. If that is so, then we have a problem. I don't know whether this is so or not, though Frank is usually good on this sort of thing so I take it seriously. What is definite is that CGL has lost people like Adam Jury, Robert Derie and others, noteable ones of which say they wont work for CGL again whilst Loren Coleman is there. Randall's letter strongly suggests that Coleman might not be going anywhere. This definitely is a serious issue imo, because the core of Shadowrun is not the owners, but the writers. Given that it seems CGL has cut it off from a serious amount of talent (and ready to print work), and on the understanding that this talent (and ready to print work) would be available to the next licence holders, by new ideal situation is for a quick transfer to a new company that will harness that talent. It's not my ideal option, because there is uncertainty in any transition. But it is my best option as far as I can see. Hints and suggestions from some imply that there might be a party in the wings ready to take on this role. Frank's open intention appears to be to raise this matter, burst the blister so to speak, so that in a couple of months when the licence comes up for renewal, such a transfer can quickly happen. I don't like to see malfeasance rewarded. And when you're in the middle of the river and you need to get to land, you can row in either direction. but it's best if everyone rows in the same direction. Given some of the people that I consider to be the best contributors to the game are heading for the other bank, and given the one we came from seems to be burning, I can only really hope that we reach the other bank quickly and that it turns out as nice as some are telling me it will be.

K.

[Centurion13]

I'm not a Shadowrun player, but I find the setting interesting, buy the books occasionally, and have lurked Dumpshock for ages. I'm appalled that Frank's flagrant and offensive comments regarding Randall's faith are being tolerated. If nothing else, they should be excised from his posts by the mod's powerful orange pens.

The letter made clear that lots of folks have been asking Randall WHY and HOW he can continue a business relationship with Loren Coleman. It's a state of mind question, not something that's going to be answered factually. That Randall referenced his faith as something he's turned to at a very difficult time and has influenced his thought process is hardly shocking. He notes that he's felt "rage" and that, in part because he's drawn strength and guidance from his faith, he's attempting to overcome anger and feel compassion and forgiveness that will allow him to move on.

There's no suggestion in the letter that anyone received a "sign from God," nor does Randall mention Jesus. Derisively referring to a "loving Jesus" and describing Randall as "Jesus' sock puppet" for attempting to be something other than a ball of fury is . . . well, it doesn't belong here. It doesn't belong anywhere. That there's another cheap shot in THIS post, after being warned about religious references in the last thread, shows that Frank simply doesn't care about anything but his self-identified goal: taking down Catalyst. Apparently he's willing to stoop to ANY level in order to paint management in a poor light.

There's plenty in the letter to disagree with or doubt without racing to the bottom and throwing cheap religious barbs about, if one is so inclined.

Oy. Thank you for saying this heaps better than I did. It needed saying - not just the part about Frank, but the part about his behavior being tolerated.

Thank you, sir!

Cent13

[knasser]

Somebody(s) is in breach of their NDA...they violated their contract...it doesn't matter why or that they had a third party do it for them. If they want to get paid my advice is don't set the checkbook on fire.

The NDAs for most of the freelancers probably cover "don't tell anyone that Nadja Davier is really Lofwyr in disguise" sort of stuff. And "don't tell people about the Shadowrun Swimsuit Edition we have scheduled for June" sort of thing.

I doubt it covers not saying that they haven't been paid or that they've left the company on ethical grounds, etc.

K.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Knasser,

From Catalyst's NDA:1. Confidential Information
As used in this Agreement, “Confidential Information” means all information of either party that is not generally known to the public, whether of a technical, business or other nature (including, without limitation, trade secrets, know-how and information relating to the technology, customers, business plans, promotional and marketing activities, finances and other business affairs of such party), that is disclosed by the Disclosing Party to the Receiving Party, and that has been identified as being proprietary and/or confidential or that by the nature of the circumstances surrounding the disclosure ought to be treated as proprietary and confidential. Confidential Information also includes all information concerning the existence and progress of the parties’ dealings


I believe that makes it pretty clear that the letter is covered.

Jason H.

All the ones that I have ever signed do.

[Dr.Rockso]

The NDAs for most of the freelancers probably cover "don't tell anyone that Nadja Davier is really Lofwyr in disguise" sort of stuff. And "don't tell people about the Shadowrun Swimsuit Edition we have scheduled for June" sort of thing.

I doubt it covers not saying that they haven't been paid or that they've left the company on ethical grounds, etc.

K.

The excerpt of the NDA that Jason posted definitely suggests the person who leaked the email in question was in breach, however. Even if they didn't post it, they shared it with an outside party(Frank).

[Method]

I fail to see how the board is "tolerating" the anti-religious comments made. Numerous members have denounced the comments made, and as explained in "CGL Thread 2" the moderators have issued warnings (of which Frank has quite a collection) and may yet issue suspensions (which wouldn't be a first for Frank either). You guys are brand new and apparently appalled that the mods aren't banning people left and right? Have you considered there is a whole spectrum of speech between "tolerance" and censorship that the mods have to navigate every day?

[Centurion13]

Really? The few people employed by Catalyst are relying on this for their livelihood not just so they can enjoy a few hours. To propose that you would lose more because you past time isn't being produced for you is ridiculous when compared to people being unable to provide for their families. I find that the priorities you are displaying here are out of wack with reality.

I have seen that in the past with other fans of other games. It is a concept among folks in the middle class in Western societies that the customer is always right. 'What the fans want' includes their peace of mind in the aggregate and assurance that they 'matter' to the producers of the game. The only pressure they bring to bear is the power of the dollar, and that only works if everyone is onboard. Most of the time, they aren't, despite the impassioned harangues on this and other forums.

Someone please let me know when a sense of moral outrage on the part of a gamer - or even a group of gamers - ever affects the outcome of a gaming company's financial problem. You and I don't matter anywhere near as much as some of us like to believe - which I believe explains the royal 'we' used so often by some indignant personalities on this forum.

This business of the 'outraged gaming community' is so much puffery. That chimera does not exist and never has.

Cent13

[urgru]

I fail to see how the board is "tolerating" the anti-religious comments made . . . You guys are brand new and apparently appalled that the mods aren't banning people left and right? Have you considered there is a whole spectrum of speech between "tolerance" and censorship that the mods have to navigate every day?

Call me naive, but when you warn someone and they do the exact same thing a few hours later, do you believe your response was effective? I'm not appalled that the first comment was made; I'm perturbed the mods failed to stand by the rules the second time around.

[Centurion13]

I fail to see how the board is "tolerating" the anti-religious comments made. Numerous members have denounced the comments made, and as explained in "CGL Thread 2" the moderators have issued warnings (of which Frank has quite a collection) and may yet issue suspensions (which wouldn't be a first for Frank either). You guys are brand new and apparently appalled that the mods aren't banning people left and right? Have you considered there is a whole spectrum of speech between "tolerance" and censorship that the mods have to navigate every day?

You have a point. Personally, I expected expunging of the offending post (and a comment regarding it from the mods), but more importantly, I expected the lines between what was permitted on this private board and what was not to be clear enough - and clearly understood - that the mods could swing into action a whole lot faster than they did.

Several people HAVE come to the fore, denouncing as they go, and in far better terms than I did (or could). But I didn't notice them when I stopped by, and that was the 'tolerance' part - the time delay before someone got around to nerfing the thread. That, and Frank coming around again and again, seemingly immune to restrictions placed on the rest of us. Oh, he's a real rebel, that Frank. Could it be that the delay was caused by a lingering admiration for his brass balls?

One hopes not.

Cent13

[knasser]

I have seen that in the past with other fans of other games. It is a concept among folks in the middle class in Western societies that the customer is always right. 'What the fans want' includes their peace of mind in the aggregate and assurance that they 'matter' to the producers of the game. The only pressure they bring to bear is the power of the dollar, and that only works if everyone is onboard. Most of the time, they aren't, despite the impassioned harangues on this and other forums.

Just in case you aren't aware of it, you're talking about me in the above, because the comment you're extending was a direct comment to my post. What I said, is not what the person you're quoting thinks I said and which you appear to have accepted. I reject people saying others shouldn't feel anything they want to feel about what's happened on the grounds that someone else may have lost more. For one, I don't know anything about these people's personal circumstances, what they have made from the company or what they stand to lose. For two, my actual point was that those that stand to lose the most are the community as a whole. If several thousand people had their little fingers cut off and one person got their arm cut off, it would not be a valid statement to say the greatest loss is that of one person. There is great harm across the whole community and everyone of us has every right to care about the game as much or as little as we choose. It sounds rather sanctimonious to look down at people for caring and condescending to say it's an attitude you've commonly found in middle class Western societies.

Is there something wrong with caring about a game that you enjoy a lot and have invested a lot of time in? If not, is there anything wrong with being angry about people who through apparent greed risk taking it away from all of us? If not, is it your attitude that people should just shrug and say "I have no right to complain" and walk away? If so, then what is your stake in this thread, exactly?

K.

[Centurion13]

And another thing...

According to the story so far, Coleman and Co. wound through about $850 thou in three years. Some of this came from grossly under-reporting income at conventions. If that can be substantiated - if it isn't a bit of wishful thinking on someone's part - I should think the Internal Revenue Service will come down on Mister Coleman a hell of a lot harder than Catalyst Game Labs ever could.

How are Mister and Missus Coleman going to pay back CGL while they are paying back the IRS in massive back taxes?

Cent13

[Stahlseele]

Ah, yes, if nothing else can, Taxes will get you.
See Al Capone. You know, that IS a good question.

[Ascalaphus]

I'm ambiguous about the leaking of the letter. On the one hand I like it when my curosity is satisfied; on the other I don't think it was the right thing to do.


As I'm reading the leaks and press statements and so forth I've seen so far, I'm inclined to think the following:
- CGL isn't happy about the situation, and wants and needs the money back
- CGL doesn't want long and costly lawsuits
- Coleman doesn't want to get sued for embezzlement, which would hurt him in a later career
- CGL prefers to get the money back rather than to punish Coleman

As long as they're calling it an "accidental commingling of private and company funds", it's something that can be dealt with in-house. If you openly call it theft, you have little choice but to sue. A certain amount of diplomatic language keeps the way open to settle the matter less painfully.
Of course, not everyone is likely to agree with that course of action; some people's outrage will understandably be too great for that.

I hope it's like that. All in all CGL did a pretty good job; it might not be without flaws, but it's still a very nice product. And I deeply resent that this will delay the Corporate Guide.

[Centurion13]

Is there something wrong with caring about a game that you enjoy a lot and have invested a lot of time in?

No. Carrying on about it world without end and tearing other folks down over it, that's the part that's wrong.

If not, is there anything wrong with being angry about people who through apparent greed risk taking it away from all of us?

No. Except no one has taken anything from you at all. Not your money, not your precious hobby, nor your health. Your time, maybe, but hey, you volunteered that.

If not, is it your attitude that people should just shrug and say "I have no right to complain" and walk away?

Well, no. Actually, I expect most of them to just shrug and say "I have no real effect on the outcome of this event for good or ill, so I will move on to things which are more important and, more importantly, things I can change." And then walk away.

If so, then what is your stake in this thread, exactly?

I would appear to have none, outside of waking up and feeling condescending and sanctimonious this morning. My, such big words! Did you get those on sale? Can I keep them? One of them has five syllables and I need that for my Word Yahtzee collection.

Cent13

[fistandantilus4....]

Please direct any more issues you have with the moderation over here:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry906865