The CGL situation p3 Options

[Ancient History]

No. Carrying on about it world without end and tearing other folks down over it, that's the part that's wrong.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the apparent original intent of this series of threads has been to inform the general Shadowrunning public of what is going on with the company that makes their games, and perhaps to prompt discussion of it. The responses from Catalyst, the line developer, and the freelancers have pretty much all been directed toward answering, as best as they are willing, the issues brought up by that first post and subsequent developments. Carrying on about it? Well, regrettably this isn't an issue that is just going to go away, though you are more than welcome to choose to ignore it. Tearing people down? I would agree personal attacks are uncalled for - and while I'm still fairly bitter at some individuals (Jason Hardy in particular has gotten an extra dose of my acidity on other threads), I don't pretend it is right of me or anyone else to stoop to insults. Like, oh, your last post there.

No. Except no one has taken anything from you at all. Not your money, not your precious hobby, nor your health. Your time, maybe, but hey, you volunteered that.

Uh...some of us have had things taken from us by this course of events, since several of the freelancers are directly affected by Coleman's financial mismanagement. On the whole, and you may disagree with me on this, but I think the quality of the game will suffer if products are brought out without the contribution of Adam Jury, Jennifer Harding, and the other seasoned freelance writers.

I would appear to have none, outside of waking up and feeling condescending and sanctimonious this morning. My, such big words! Did you get those on sale? Can I keep them? One of them has five syllables and I need that for my Word Yahtzee collection.

Deep breaths, mann. You're not going to win any arguments that way.

[Dixie Flatline]

From Catalyst's NDA:



I believe that makes it pretty clear that the letter is covered.

Jason H.

I'm reminded of an old saying... "Three men can keep a secret if two of them are dead".

Anyway NDAs are funny things... They don't cover up illegal activities. Remember that whistle-blower for Phillip-Morris years ago? He violated his NDA, because his employers were misrepresenting facts publicly. He was put through hell for it, but he legally didn't exactly do anything wrong. While whoever leaked the letter probably should have fessed up to it, it's folly to assume that with this much bad blood floating around (up to and including yanking published books due to payment issues) the letter would stay confidential.

Make no mistake. If several of the freelancers are to be believed, CGL *has* broken the law by failing to pay them, and the NDA wouldn't impose on them the requirement to suppress this fact. In fact, CGL might have violated state labor laws in such a scenario, as well as federal laws since almost assuredly in this scenario the events happened over state lines. I had an NDA and a non-competition agreement with former employers, and they tried to sue me when they failed to pay me for a month and I proceeded to start my own business and certain clients came of their own volition to me. My lawyer quickly pointed out that the NDA didn't cover forcing me to remain quiet about illegal activities. I simply needed evidence that could stand up in court. Their failure to pay me was ample evidence. They backed down after a letter explained this to them.

Please note that I'm not formally accusing CGL of breaking the law. I'm saying that *if* certain freelancers are accurate about their situation, laws may have been broken, putting the NDA in a legal gray area. I know this from experience. If there are outstanding pay issues, CGL should thank it's lucky stars the freelancers aren't running to the labor board to get their money. Those penalties are... severe... One person six months past pay date could easily put a small to moderate company under due to interest and penalties alone.

Anyway... My original thoughts...

Having owned my own business, I can attest that it is nigh-on-impossible to "accidentally" mingle company money with a private account. There are a handful of scenarios I can envision, but none that would sustain a 3 year "accident". In fact, I wonder how a real accountant or bookkeeper could miss this for so long. Hell, even a 100 dollar copy of Quickbooks would go out of it's way to point out such an error, and a properly set up excel spreadsheet would do the same with little more effort. The only way this wouldn't *immediately* become apparent in the books after a month or two is if A) the bookkeeper was in on it, or B) whoever was "co-mingling" the money was falsifying transactions to make the discrepancy look legitimate. Remember: There were at least 2 fiscal years where the books were reviewed (tax time) and it was *not* noticed.

I noticed in various sources that publicly, the word "accident" is used, and more internally, the word "mistake" is used. They sound similar, but the former indicates that the event was unintentional. The latter opens up the possibility of an intentional act. If I drink and drive it's a terrible "mistake". I still intentionally drank, and then intentionally drove.

Am I splitting hairs? Yes. But at this point that's what I have to go on. Language is traditionally very revealing when you pay attention to word choice and *how* people say things. They split hairs in their head to remain on the brighter side of gray.

[Delarn]

No it's not. It's independent and has lots of interaction with writers etc, but official it's not.


Frank is essentially judgment proof. He's a college student living on government loans in the Czech republic. How are you going to serve him, much less collect?

Then he just should shut his mouth. He prone to be at the defence of Topps. Topps is a big enough corp to defend it self. CGL must be giving Topps frequent report of their actions. So if Topps knows about it already and let them go with the licences then it means that Topps did not lose their trust in CGL. Topps is a big corp so they don't need a College student on gov loans (That live under the taxes of the people working around him), to defend them.

[Dixie Flatline]

Frank should be sued for his actions. He infringed confidentiality. Even if he was a proxy for a ranting freelancer that freelancer should have all his work done under the NDA taken and given to CGL without payment, for the NDA infringement. That freelancer should also post an official excuse to this board or to CGL. He humiliated CGL and should be humiliated in return.

All Frank has to do is

A) Prove that he himself wasn't under an NDA when he posted the letter

and

B) Show that he wasn't lying concerning the contents of that letter. Which could be as easy as showing that he passed the letter on unedited, or as complicated as gaining access to pertinent information concerning CGL's financial solvency, airing all their dirty laundry as public record.

CGL would be insane to sue him. They have everything to lose by making any of this occur in court. Frank strikes me as the type that is stubborn enough to see a court case through just to wipe mud on CGL's face.

[knasser]

No. Carrying on about it world without end and tearing other folks down over it, that's the part that's wrong.

No. Except no one has taken anything from you at all. Not your money, not your precious hobby, nor your health. Your time, maybe, but hey, you volunteered that.

Well, no. Actually, I expect most of them to just shrug and say "I have no real effect on the outcome of this event for good or ill, so I will move on to things which are more important and, more importantly, things I can change." And then walk away.

So the basic thrust of what you're saying is to cartoon people angry about this as carrying on as if the world is going to end so you can say they care too much. To say that no-one has taken anything from us, ignoring that (a) they might well have done seeing as books we looked forward to are now in jeopardy and some books we might have wished to purchase are currently withdrawn from sale in addition to some of our community actually being owed money by CGL and (b) our concerns are rather obviously about what this means for the future of the game.

Basically, it is as I say, you're posting just to mock people for caring more than you think they should. Well perhaps I think you care too much about what other people care about. You could heed some of your own advice and go on to things you feel are more important. At least if we post because we care about the game, that's better than posting to say how strongly you don't care, surely?

I would appear to have none, outside of waking up and feeling condescending and sanctimonious this morning. My, such big words! Did you get those on sale? Can I keep them? One of them has five syllables and I need that for my Word Yahtzee collection.

Cent13

If you think 'condescending' is a big word you have other problems. But I'm afraid it's the best one I could think of to describe a post that mocked people for having middle class western attitudes. I don't know what you think you know of my background or my life or my work. But what I choose to do with my free time is my choice and I rightly object to anyone telling me that I should go and do something more important. You've just registered at this forum - post count of 15 at the time of writing, so why are you busy telling people on the main Shadowrun forums not to get worked up about things that affect Shadowrun. I repeat, it's not for you to tell people what they should and shouldn't care about.

And it's particularly childish to go on a rant about whether you can keep their big words for Yahtzee. I don't know what audience you think you're talking to, but I assure you anyone whose survived any of the weekly RAW wars here on Dumpshock (and that's most of us, except those who just registered like you), are well-practiced at seeing the difference between crude put downs and actual points. Your style of argument would probably fare better on different forums. Unless your aim is simply to insult me, in which case, well done you.

K.

[Dixie Flatline]

Then he just should shut his mouth. He prone to be at the defence of Topps. Topps is a big enough corp to defend it self. CGL must be giving Topps frequent report of their actions. So if Topps knows about it already and let them go with the licences then it means that Topps did not lose their trust in CGL. Topps is a big corp so they don't need a College student on gov loans (That live under the taxes of the people working around him), to defend them.

He's not defending Topps, he's got an axe to grind against CGL. He knows Topps is a gargantuan corporation who is mainly interested in profit. He hopes to contribute to an environment where Topps realizes that the easiest and quickest way to profit off of Shadowrun and Battletech is to sell the licenses to a new company and pull the pipeline over to the new company, thereby sinking CGL.

To be fair he needs to be careful. That kind of stated malice *can* get you in trouble. Even if he is using the truth as his weapon. You play that kind of thing down when you have the "moral authority" of the truth on your side.

Though as was pointed out, collecting against him would be difficult at best.

[Delarn]

A) Prove that he himself wasn't under an NDA when he posted the letter

He is not, that's why he did send it. But the one who sent it to him was. So Troll became complice of the infringement and complice at crime is still being criminal. Yes NDA infringement is a crime. It's breaking a contract.

[JongWK]

Then he just should shut his mouth. He prone to be at the defence of Topps. Topps is a big enough corp to defend it self. CGL must be giving Topps frequent report of their actions. So if Topps knows about it already and let them go with the licences then it means that Topps did not lose their trust in CGL. Topps is a big corp so they don't need a College student on gov loans (That live under the taxes of the people working around him), to defend them.

You know, I have a beautiful sea-side property in Salt Lake City...

[Delarn]

He's not defending Topps, he's got an axe to grind against CGL. He knows Topps is a gargantuan corporation who is mainly interested in profit. He hopes to contribute to an environment where Topps realizes that the easiest and quickest way to profit off of Shadowrun and Battletech is to sell the licenses to a new company and pull the pipeline over to the new company, thereby sinking CGL.

To be fair he needs to be careful. That kind of stated malice *can* get you in trouble. Even if he is using the truth as his weapon. You play that kind of thing down when you have the "moral authority" of the truth on your side.

Though as was pointed out, collecting against him would be difficult at best.

1- He did say that.
2- He may have the truth, it doesn't give him right to infringe the NDA for the one who forwarded the email.
3- Did he ask Topps if they knew about it ?
4- Can he keep his time to study and make the government loan of his useful to his life and now waste his time to defend a company that doesn't need his help at all !

[Dixie Flatline]

According to the story so far, Coleman and Co. wound through about $850 thou in three years. Some of this came from grossly under-reporting income at conventions.

If this is the case, I have a question... Don't these companies do *inventory*???

Most business I have worked for or with do a visual inventory 2-3 times a year for this specific reason.

[Sengir]

Then he just should shut his mouth.

And why should he do that? Because you don't like what he says?
Not that I like his manners, or the fact that he cannot keep his opinions seperated from facts (something Randall Bills aparently is better at), but the info he has given was accurate and certainly valueable to me as a fan of Shadowrun. Yep, nobody has the obligation to give us this intel - which is why I appreciate it even more.

Topps is a big corp so they don't need a College student on gov loans (That live under the taxes of the people working around him), to defend them.

And what does his occupation actually have to do with this?

[Delarn]

You know, I have a beautiful sea-side property in Salt Lake City...

Nice for you ...

[Delarn]

And what does his occupation actually have to do with this?

He should use his time to study. The tax payers pays him to go to school then he should make them proud and study hard to become someone and then he can try to defend a corp that doesn't need help.

[Dixie Flatline]

He is not, that's why he did send it. But the one who sent it to him was. So Troll became complice of the infringement and complice at crime is still being criminal. Yes NDA infringement is a crime. It's breaking a contract.

See my above post about the NDA and legality. The NDA can't cover up illegal activities in itself. CGL might have/probably has broken the law in regards to said freelancer, throwing the NDA out the window. Besides, maybe they accidentally sent it to someone or gave someone access to it who is no longer under their NDA, and *that* person leaked it (as some insiders have posted might very well be the case). In that respect, it makes your argument completely void.

Again, CGL is welcome to pursue legal action. It will destroy their reputation completely however I imagine, because that puts them in a legal obligation to discuss the issue in a court setting. No spin, under oath, and in the public record.

[Dixie Flatline]

1- He did say that.
2- He may have the truth, it doesn't give him right to infringe the NDA for the one who forwarded the email.
3- Did he ask Topps if they knew about it ?
4- Can he keep his time to study and make the government loan of his useful to his life and now waste his time to defend a company that doesn't need his help at all !

You know, personal attacks like you've been making...

You're becoming hypocritical. Maybe it'd be prudent for you to take your own advice and remain quiet.

[Fatum]

I can understand why fans are getting angry, but they need to take a serious step back, and take a reality check. You buy a book the price of a couple of McDonalds meals, that doesn't mean you suddenly own or have invested with a company producing that book. You didn't buy a 3 year support contract, you bought a book! There are a bunch of freelancers who have worked hard and haven't been paid, for a lot of them it's a pretty big chunk of cash. Then we have the co owner who is going to miss money in the region that most of us would have to work 5-10 years to acquire. To to mention that he might loose his company that he has spend way more time building up then most of us have spent playing the game(s) and possibly further income. If he can forgive what has happened, why the frag are kids on these forums making such a bloody big stink? Yes, it's going to suck if you have less or no new books, but get some perspective!

It appears that the one lacking perspective here is not the community, some members of which have been buying Shadowrun products for more than 20 years (which is roughly 7 times longer than CGL has existed, if we're talking about perspective here), but yourself.
And yes, the only things that make licenses like SR valuable, and companies like CGL viable are fan communities, who pay money for the product. Surprisingly enough.
That's pretty much why you don't solve crises things like this behind the scenes, once the info has leaked - not to loose the fan support.


Also, you folks are surely "keeping the discussion civil". Well, if you consider personal attacks to be civil, of course.

[Sengir]

He should use his time to study.

Trollman is a big boy so he don't need a [whatever you are] to tell him what to do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And seriously, studends do have free time. Like the time we spend to play RPGs.

[Fatum]

And seriously, studends do have free time. Like the time we spend to play RPGs.

Get a job, hippie!

[Delarn]

I'm just channeling my anger on him ... I'm angry about something else. But still blackmailling is bad. He did and it's not nice from him.

EDIT: Last post on that subject ;P (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wavey.gif)

[fistandantilus4....]

No. Carrying on about it world without end and tearing other folks down over it, that's the part that's wrong.
....

I would appear to have none, outside of waking up and feeling condescending and sanctimonious this morning. My, such big words! Did you get those on sale? Can I keep them? One of them has five syllables and I need that for my Word Yahtzee collection.

Cent13

Good morning Mr. Personal Attack. I'm Mr. Sarcastic-Mod-Running-Out-Of-Patience. Have we met before?

[Sengir]

Get a job, hippie!

I have one...with a bunch of NDAs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)



And where the bloody hell did Frank blackmail anyone?

[knasser]

And where the bloody hell did Frank blackmail anyone?

It's Irish blackmail - they release the confidential information first, just to show you they're not kidding.

K.

[Stahlseele]

He is not, that's why he did send it. But the one who sent it to him was. So Troll became complice of the infringement and complice at crime is still being criminal. Yes NDA infringement is a crime. It's breaking a contract.

If the laws actually work this way, then the laws need some changing.
If I am forbidden from telling YOU something, then by doing so I am breaking a CONTRACT, not a Law, mind you.
If then YOU decide to tell the information YOU got from ME to someone else, YOU are NOT breaking any contract if you are not under a similar contract to me and/or the entity who originally gave the information TO ME.
Much less a law.

Good morning Mr. Personal Attack. I'm Mr. Sarcastic-Mod-Running-Out-Of-Patience. Have we met before?

. . ooowww . . o.o
Carefull there, another heavy dose like that and you could start a singularity like that ^^

[emouse]

Ultimately, as far as the contents of the letter are concerned, there's not a great deal in there that Catalyst hasn't already posted or that most people following the situation could reasonably guess. The worst part about the letter being leaked is that Randall et al. will probably communicate even less with the freelancers than they do already, for fear of it getting out to the public at large. A very unfortunate turn of events, and indicative of the lack of trust that already exists in the organization.

I think this sums things up pretty well. Most of the content was already known or deduced by the people here. It seems like the intent of whoever leaked it is to do harm.

The letter indicates that Randal has been in the driver's seat for the process of sorting things out. I'm a pretty ration-over-religion guy, but I also follow Battletech, and at least on the Battletech side, where Randal has been 'The Man', he has a track record of getting things done and doing them well. Since Randal's focus has been on Battletech all these years, I can kind of see how some of this stuff could have slipped by him as co-owner.

Really, ever since the hints about this letter got out in the previous thread run, I was waiting for Frank to post the full content. He's been pretty reliable in having the inside scoop on what's going on, with the original post, his knowledge about several SR books being yanked, and now this letter. I still don't know the accuracy of his numbers in the original post, but if they are accurate, that suddenly leaves a very short list for where he may be getting his information from.

Let me say first of all, that I understand the rage and anguish that prompted members of the company to give me the information in the first place. But that's not why I agreed to do it.

So yeah, it sounds like a very short list.

BTW, part of the knee-jerk reaction to Frank's posting shows the difference in how pleased BT fans/freelancers are with how BT has been handled, as opposed to how displeased some SR fans/freelancers are. No BT freelancers have stepped forward to complain about pay owed, nor have they withheld anything yet, to my knowledge. Don't know if it means BT freelancers were getting paid when SR freelancers weren't, or if Randal has managed to keep them appeased. I've said before, my impression on Dumpshock vs. CBT boards (and yes, the CBT board is official, DS isn't), is that BT fans are much, much happier with where BT is today because of Catalyst. I'm not saying this to excuse anything, just to point out to anyone who expresses a desire to see Catalyst burn that Shadowrun isn't the only thing effected by it, and there are a lot of very happy BT fans out there who are definitely wanting Catalyst to pull through.

[Sengir]

It's Irish blackmail - they release the confidential information first, just to show you they're not kidding.

Hmm, sounds like a plan