The CGL situation p3 Options

[emouse]

And I want that fact to be generally known, because I want Topps to know that.

Unless you've forwarded copies of your posts to Topps, I wouldn't expect them to take notice any of this discussion.

I want this information to get out so that Topps can make an informed decision about their license.

Topps is going to want one thing, money. If Catalyst doesn't have a check for them, and can't reasonably explain why they have a check or show a solid business plan for getting that check, Topps will pull the license. It really doesn't matter why they don't have the money, or what's been posted on Dumpshock. It's about the bills, the green kind.

Because I genuinely believe that the best thing for Shadowrun's future is for Topps to give the license to someone else. Pretty much anyone else, because right now Catalyst does not have the money to pay contracting fees and printing costs to bring out product.

I'm sure everyone will be thrilled and want to jump up to thank you for GURPS Shadowrun.

(Please note that I can't imagine SJ licensing anything ever, so that's a joke, and hyperbole about what could result if the license changes hands. Or it could be the bestest thing ever, we don't really know)

The people who were in charge of getting the money back from Loren Coleman have quit. And Randall Bills says that even now, they have not been replaced.

How many beyond those people were privy to the information you've posted? The dollar amounts that are missing, CGL takes in, and expends? I can't imagine it's a long list.

[JongWK]

It's Irish blackmail - they release the confidential information first, just to show you they're not kidding.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Adam]

I'm sure everyone will be thrilled and want to jump up to thank you for GURPS Shadowrun.

(Please note that I can't imagine SJ licensing anything ever, so that's a joke, and hyperbole about what could result if the license changes hands. Or it could be the bestest thing ever, we don't really know)

SJG has a long history of licensed products. Remember, at one point, they released licensed versions of Vampire: The Masquerade!

[Ancient History]

SJG has a long history of licensed products. Remember, at one point, they released licensed versions of Vampire: The Masquerade!

Not to mention Hellboy and Terry Pratchett's Discworld.

[Stahlseele]

*pokes AH* would you not like to get your hands on an occassion to try something with discworld? *snickers*

[Redjack]

Call me naive, but when you warn someone and they do the exact same thing a few hours later, do you believe your response was effective? I'm not appalled that the first comment was made; I'm perturbed the mods failed to stand by the rules the second time around.

So is it then your expectation that we simply forget we have a life and jump on here and have an emergency meeting the instant someone breaks the TOS?

[emouse]

So if Topps knows about it already and let them go with the licences then it means that Topps did not lose their trust in CGL.

By the letter, Topps has been made aware of the situation, but has not let them go yet. Sounds like CGL management may have been getting some backing and support before and during GAMA, and this week they go to Topps to make their case.

I can't imagine any of this discussion mattering to Topps at all. I would think it's just been a distraction for Catalyst. If Topps did take notice, I think it does put Randall in a positive light for how he's been handling it.

Dreamwave continues to be a parallel reference point for me. In that case, Hasbro apparently waited a month or two, expecting payment from DW, with virtually no communication nor business plan put forward. After that, they yanked the license, and put it back up for sale. But in that case, there was a single owner with no peers to put pressure on him to do the right thing. His company folded, freelancers never got a dime, and he went off to his next job/company with his Porche and nice paid-for apartment.

[emouse]

SJG has a long history of licensed products. Remember, at one point, they released licensed versions of Vampire: The Masquerade!

Not to mention Hellboy and Terry Pratchett's Discworld.

And even one based on Bungie's Myth.

How many of them were one-shots vs. book lines that lasted for years?

[Method]

He should use his time to study. The tax payers pays him to go to school then he should make them proud and study hard to become someone...

Wow. You should be careful about the kinds of assumptions you are making. Besides the fact that you are passing off second or third hand information as truth (what do you really know about where his tuition comes from?), you have no idea how hard Frank does or doesn't work at what he does. There are lots of kinds of students. I can assure you that most of them don't work anywhere near hard enough to get where Frank is.

[wusselpompf]

And even one based on Bungie's Myth.

I throw GURPS Castle Falkenstein, GURPS Humanx, GURPS Traveller and GURPS Conspiracy X in the mix, although I believe for ConX the licensing actually went the other way 'round, with Eden Studios being the only publisher to ever publish a GURPS book other than SJG (afaik)

[Dixie Flatline]

SJG has a long history of licensed products. Remember, at one point, they released licensed versions of Vampire: The Masquerade!

I was just about to post this.

I'm looking at GURPS Traveler right now on my bookshelf in eyesight for example. Munchkin is a SJGames published game, but I don't think it's actual SJ intellectual property.

On the remote and unlikely chance of SJ Games acquiring Shadowrun licensing, you'd probably see a GURPS edition and a standard edition. It's how they do things. I have the ENTIRE run of In Nomine for example, save for GURPS In Nomine. All splat books that they released would be compatible with both gurps & what would probably be SR5.

The rules differences would be interesting. SJ Games isn't afraid of getting incredibly crunchy with the rules.

[Dread Moores]

BTW, part of the knee-jerk reaction to Frank's posting shows the difference in how pleased BT fans/freelancers are with how BT has been handled, as opposed to how displeased some SR fans/freelancers are. No BT freelancers have stepped forward to complain about pay owed, nor have they withheld anything yet, to my knowledge. Don't know if it means BT freelancers were getting paid when SR freelancers weren't, or if Randal has managed to keep them appeased. I've said before, my impression on Dumpshock vs. CBT boards (and yes, the CBT board is official, DS isn't), is that BT fans are much, much happier with where BT is today because of Catalyst. I'm not saying this to excuse anything, just to point out to anyone who expresses a desire to see Catalyst burn that Shadowrun isn't the only thing effected by it, and there are a lot of very happy BT fans out there who are definitely wanting Catalyst to pull through.

Yeah, that's something that has really been eye-opening for me in this whole situation. The fan/community reaction has not been at all what I expected. There seems to have been a much bigger, vocal, extremist/reactionary minority than I expected from either community.

Of course, then you have the Ctech fans, who've already seen one publisher go by the wayside. The reaction there seems to have largely been "Meh. When's the next book out?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Adam]

I'm looking at GURPS Traveler right now on my bookshelf in eyesight for example. Munchkin is a SJGames published game, but I don't think it's actual SJ intellectual property.

It is.

[crizh]

@AH

I'm very sad to hear that your PACKS material won't see the light of day. That's a great loss to the community in my opinion.


@knasser

Irish Blackmail?

Holy crap, I nearly spat perfectly good beer all over a perfectly good laptop reading that.....

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)


@somebody else

A few people have quibbled with Frank because the letter he leaked revealed information that was already public domain or that had already been deduced.

I'd like to point out that there is a hell of a difference between informed speculation and black and white facts.

The letter to the freelancers likely turns speculation that would have seen endless debate here into indisputable facts.

That fact alone does have measurable value.

[Ancient History]

This might be my paranoia talking, but I never take anything as undisputed fact, if only because there is always someone to dispute it. In this case, you're making the assumption that Randall was 100% honest to the freelancers. Now, I'm not saying he wasn't honest, I'm just pointing out that there is no guarantee he is being honest - there are plenty of reasons to snowball freelancers as well as the general public. So the only "facts" here are to the extant that Randall is saying about the same things to the freelancers as Catalyst said to the fans, with perhaps a modicum more detail. You certainly can't fault him for consistency, at least.

[SincereAgape]

A few notes, then I'll jump out.

1. Loren Colemen and Bill Randalls built CGL from the ground up. Without them we wouldn't have the SR product that we have had for the past five years.
2. The freelance writers are the one's who have been hurt the most buy everything that has happened. Not the fans (Because in reality Shadowrun is only a game), nor Bill Randalls (As the leader it was under his jurisdiction). I cannot speak for them, nor will I attempt to....but I will point one thing out. Randalls is trying, to get you your money, and has been according to the letter is very apologetic about the entire situation. Wanting to hang the Coleman's in front of the town square is understandable and it whether or not anyone will ever forgive them is their own personal decision. But I understand what Bill Randalls did. He went up to a very close friend, looked him in the eye and made a decision not to throw him under the bus despite the events which have happened. I was not there for the conversations they had about the issue, nor was anyone else. But on a very humanistic level, I can understand wanting and having to forgiving someone who you've been through so much with.

Randalls and Coleman could honestly just say "F' you guys. We really don't care, and don't have any plans to pay you back. Let the company fold and we'll declare bankruptcy. Screw the fans, let's not talk to them. Our names will be dragged through mud, but f' it, it's not worth it."

Instead they are going trying, scratching, communicating, being honest, putting himself out there, and fighting to get the money to the freelancers who rightfully deserve the cash.

- The past is the past and there is nothing we can do to changed what happened over the past three years. The only thing people can do right now is move on and try to make the best out of the situation. I assume and can be wrong here, but if the liscense for SR leaves CGL and goes to another company, the new company will not be obligated to pay the free lancers.

- According to the letter, and the tone of what everyone seems to be upset with is the forgiveness and decision to keep Loren Coleman with the company. Wrong move? Right move? Time will tell. But giving someone a second chance, giving a close friend a second chance? I can live with that no matter how many other people are pissed off.

[crizh]

This might be my paranoia talking, but I never take anything as undisputed fact, if only because there is always someone to dispute it. In this case, you're making the assumption that Randall was 100% honest to the freelancers. Now, I'm not saying he wasn't honest, I'm just pointing out that there is no guarantee he is being honest - there are plenty of reasons to snowball freelancers as well as the general public. So the only "facts" here are to the extant that Randall is saying about the same things to the freelancers as Catalyst said to the fans, with perhaps a modicum more detail. You certainly can't fault him for consistency, at least.

A fair point, I still feel we now have more data-points than we did before. Merely identifying the Colemans as the source of the discrepancy is more 'fact' and less arguing about speculation.

[tweak]

Interesting. I kinda missed the middle of the whole discussion. Anyway, from what I have read, here are some of my reactions:

1) NDA's are bad; I'll never work under one
2) Freelancers not getting paid is bad; they have bills to pay
3) what's the future of Shadowrun?

[Ancient History]

1) NDA's are bad; I'll never work under one

Actually, NDAs are good, even essential to business. What's bad is that there is such a breakdown in trust between the corp and the freelancers that parties are willing to break an NDA, or that the company is so poorly organized they don't have NDAs for many of their people.

[Cergorach]

He is not, that's why he did send it. But the one who sent it to him was. So Troll became complice of the infringement and complice at crime is still being criminal. Yes NDA infringement is a crime. It's breaking a contract.

Could be me, but since when is breaking a contract a criminal act?

It appears that the one lacking perspective here is not the community, some members of which have been buying Shadowrun products for more than 20 years (which is roughly 7 times longer than CGL has existed, if we're talking about perspective here), but yourself.

Being one that has spend money on SR and BT products for the last 21 years, that still doesn't mean that there's any bigger relation ship then buying a book from a company. Spending money is easy, and unless it specifically states that when you buy a book you can make claims on the company and it's decisions, your views are exactly that, your views. You can snigger and sputter all you want, but your (and mine) opinion count for exactly squat. I've invested time and resources in an official BT project, that also means squat, I volunteered. If you want to have a say in how SR is made, make Topps an offer they can't refuse. If it's as some have claimed, a license to print money, I'm certain that a well written business plan will net you the business loans you'll need. But to be honest, I know ten jobs from the top of my head that are less stressful and net me a lot more money then starting a game company and spending an insane amount of money on a couple of licenses. The whole backseat driver attitude is grating on my nerves.

ps. Your not one of those who have been collecting SR for 20 years, your 22 years old!

[Crank]

He is not, that's why he did send it. But the one who sent it to him was. So Troll became complice of the infringement and complice at crime is still being criminal. Yes NDA infringement is a crime. It's breaking a contract.

Um, No. Breaking a contract is not a crime. Its a civil matter, not a criminal one. You can break contracts all day long and the cops and district attorneys won't care one bit. Its up to the other party in your contract to enforce it by taking you to court, not them.

[Doc Byte]

1) NDA's are bad; I'll never work under one

Good luck finding a job at any creative, innovative or otherwise sensitive branch.

[kzt]

1) NDA's are bad; I'll never work under one

NDAs have a very useful purpose. They allow people to tell you things that they really don't want going out in public.

We do this with vendors occasionally, they will give you the details about product that they are planning to release months or years from now, which allow you to plan your operation to make use of these. It sucks to take delivery of $500K worth of product and find out the next week that it will be replaced by something that costs $350K and is three times faster.

[kjones]

1) NDA's are bad; I'll never work under one

NDAs are a necessary evil. I have a lot of friends who are programmers, and all of them are NDA'ed up the wazoo.

Nothing wrong with moral stands, but consider if you really mean that before you assert it.

[Ol' Scratch]

For a gaming company where you're working as a freelancer, an NDA to prevent you from revealing information that will be published is one thing. One that forbids you from discussing anything about anything for no apparent reason other than because a lawyer decided to throw it into the agreement is bullshit. Especially for said gaming company where you're just doing freelance work. At that point the NDA has evolved from being a means of protecting your product to one that the company and/or its lawyers can use to blackmail your ass if and when they want to.