The CGL situation p3 Options

[LurkerOutThere]

Interesting. I kinda missed the middle of the whole discussion. Anyway, from what I have read, here are some of my reactions:

1) NDA's are bad; I'll never work under one

Good thing McDonald's is always hiring (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's one of the few jobs I've ever had where I didn't have to sign soem flavor of NDA or confidentiality agreement.

[emouse]

The point that NDAs and breaking them is a contractual problem and not a legal one brings up an interesting point that people also are missing about what's been decided by Randall. Catalyst is a private company. From what I've read recently on the LLC structure (so yeah, this is second hand, and I'm not expert), whatever money Catalyst makes belongs to the owners, and the taxes are paid out of the Catalyst books. Whatever agreement the owners established at the beginning dictates how that pool gets divided up. Did one of the owners take too much? Yes. Did it result in Catalyst being unable to fulfill contractual obligations with freelancers? Yes.

My point is, it's a civil contractual issue, and it's not a law-breaking one. While what was done might be unethical, it wasn't illegal. By law, the ones who were wronged were the other owners. They have to make a choice, do they sue the one who broke their original agreement, or do they try to work with that person to try and get things made right? The decision has been made to try and make things right. The wronged owners are trying to hold the partner accountable, but still forge ahead with the company.

To the credit of the partner who was responsible, some degree of credit must be given to the fact that they didn't just walk away. If Catalyst is pressed to renew licenses, then they really aren't likely to be able to handle legal fees on top of that. Most likely, right now, if the person responsible wanted to, they could walk away without much more harm than their reputation has suffered already. I'm not excusing what they did, I just hope they continue to make the right choice in making up for what they've done.

The freelancers have been wronged as well, but by Catalyst. They can either wait and try to work with Catalyst until they fulfill outstanding obligations, or they can pull copyright on material they haven't been paid for and cut all ties with the company. There are people choosing both options.

Whether an NDA is being violated is also a contractual issue. Either the person giving Frank information is freelancer, possibly under an NDA or not, or they may be an employee as Frank has claimed. If they're under and NDA or an employee, then it's likely a breach of that contract, and could face legal problems if Catalyst ever figured out who it was. Though, really, I think Catalyst management has bigger issues on their mind at the moment.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Good thing McDonald's is always hiring (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's one of the few jobs I've ever had where I didn't have to sign soem flavor of NDA or confidentiality agreement.

Unless of course they tell you the secret of their french fries. In this case there is a clause in the NDA saying they will kill you if you tell to someone you shouldn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Now, HOLY CRAP! I won't spend any more weekends with my girlfriend until this whole SR-is-dead thing is over (for better or worse).
I've lost all the action. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

[kjones]

Now, HOLY CRAP! I won't spend any more weekends with my girlfriend until this whole SR-is-dead thing is over (for better or worse).
I've lost all the action. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

wat

[Centurion13]

...you're posting just to mock people for caring more than you think they should.

And you win the prize! You now have the chance to avoid long-winded logical posts.... oh, wait.

If you think 'condescending' is a big word you have other problems.

Oh, I do - on both counts. That is the point. Some I can affect, others I can't. I khow the difference; you should, too. I am poking fun at you sillies for taking this kerfluffle (and by extension, yourselves) waaay too seriously.

And it's particularly childish to go on a rant about whether you can keep their big words for Yahtzee.

Lordy, that was no rant, it was a subtle dig involving a game - apropos of the forum. C'mon, five syllables? Did you really pack more into that sentence for having used that word? You have some good points. Stop losing them by assuming everyone around you has a college education. You just sound stuffy and a leeetle pompous.

Cent13

[Centurion13]

Good morning Mr. Personal Attack. I'm Mr. Sarcastic-Mod-Running-Out-Of-Patience. Have we met before?

We may have, indeed. I am sure it was right after someone whacked me in the head with some big words.

You might have missed that, though.

I will keep it civil. Or you can gunch my account and scotch my posts in their entirety. Your call.

Darnit, where's the PM when you need one?

Cent13

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

wat

Joke, really (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Lordy, that was no rant, it was a subtle dig involving a game - apropos of the forum. C'mon, five syllables? Did you really pack more into that sentence for having used that word? You have some good points. Stop losing them by assuming everyone around you has a college education. You just sound stuffy and a leeetle pompous.

Cent13

Soooooooo, when was dumpshock relocated to 4chan? Did I miss the advertisement (hey, look, a 4-syllabble word, does this mean I can go to college now? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) )

[nemafow]

Soooooooo, when was dumpshock relocated to 4chan? Did I miss the advertisement (hey, look, a 4-syllabble word, does this mean I can go to college now? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) )

My thoughts exactly, some people reducing this board to the level of 4chan.

[Omenowl]

My biggest worry is CGL folds or loses the SR license and then no one else picks it up. The last thing I want is shadowrun to go the way of star frontiers. I hope the freelancers get paid and CGL sorts out the mess. I hate to see the loss of some great freelancers and hope this situation is resolved.

Regardless of what happens I have been happy with SR4. I didn't like the previous incarnations, but with the optional rules and supplemental rulebooks have increased my enjoyment of the game. Kudos to all the people who worked on the game.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

My biggest worry is CGL folds or loses the SR license and then no one else picks it up. The last thing I want is shadowrun to go the way of star frontiers. I hope the freelancers get paid and CGL sorts out the mess. I hate to see the loss of some great freelancers and hope this situation is resolved.

I've always liked the setting, although the 1st and 2nd edition rules were always a little cumbersome (never played 3rd edition, skipped right to 4th).

But yeah, the worst thing would be CGL dropping SR out and take years before someone else takes the license running again.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

I believe that nature abhors a vacuum and businesses untapped revenue streams. The IP is in tact and unless George Lucas decides to make a SR movie it should remain so.

CGL…I wish the very best for those who have departed and the best of luck for those who remain.

[kjones]

The IP is in tact and unless George Lucas decides to make a SR movie it should remain so.

You probably shouldn't say that. I think that George Lucas appears whenever someone speaks the name of a terrible idea.'

Kind of like Hastur or Bloody Mary.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I heard it was when you said His name backwards three times. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) (Do note: I think Star Wars was a great idea, until George Lucas decided to spen too much time on it instead of letting other people make him richer)

[tweak]

For a gaming company where you're working as a freelancer, an NDA to prevent you from revealing information that will be published is one thing. One that forbids you from discussing anything about anything for no apparent reason other than because a lawyer decided to throw it into the agreement is bullshit. Especially for said gaming company where you're just doing freelance work. At that point the NDA has evolved from being a means of protecting your product to one that the company and/or its lawyers can use to blackmail your ass if and when they want to.

I should have been more specific. I meant within the context of this gaming industry. I have seen NDA's abused way too much. And freelancers are just not paid enough to put up with the lack of professionalism that occurs, but cannot be spoken about, due to NDA's.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

If somebody has a contractual problem and it is less than $5000 (in a lot of states) take them to small claims court. Instant gratification no. At some point the company finds that having outstanding claims is fouling their ability to get credit and settle.

Anecdotally, I have never experienced any problems with the three game companies that I did business with. Outside of the game industry though I have had some problems, few and far between though.

It is important to remember though, that when you are owed money that you need to abide by the Fair Debt laws when seeking to collect.

[darthmord]

I think this sums things up pretty well. Most of the content was already known or deduced by the people here. It seems like the intent of whoever leaked it is to do harm.

The letter indicates that Randal has been in the driver's seat for the process of sorting things out. I'm a pretty ration-over-religion guy, but I also follow Battletech, and at least on the Battletech side, where Randal has been 'The Man', he has a track record of getting things done and doing them well. Since Randal's focus has been on Battletech all these years, I can kind of see how some of this stuff could have slipped by him as co-owner.

Really, ever since the hints about this letter got out in the previous thread run, I was waiting for Frank to post the full content. He's been pretty reliable in having the inside scoop on what's going on, with the original post, his knowledge about several SR books being yanked, and now this letter. I still don't know the accuracy of his numbers in the original post, but if they are accurate, that suddenly leaves a very short list for where he may be getting his information from.



So yeah, it sounds like a very short list.

BTW, part of the knee-jerk reaction to Frank's posting shows the difference in how pleased BT fans/freelancers are with how BT has been handled, as opposed to how displeased some SR fans/freelancers are. No BT freelancers have stepped forward to complain about pay owed, nor have they withheld anything yet, to my knowledge. Don't know if it means BT freelancers were getting paid when SR freelancers weren't, or if Randal has managed to keep them appeased. I've said before, my impression on Dumpshock vs. CBT boards (and yes, the CBT board is official, DS isn't), is that BT fans are much, much happier with where BT is today because of Catalyst. I'm not saying this to excuse anything, just to point out to anyone who expresses a desire to see Catalyst burn that Shadowrun isn't the only thing effected by it, and there are a lot of very happy BT fans out there who are definitely wanting Catalyst to pull through.

Certain posters in this thread have posted on other forums and blogs that BT is doing great and that SR & SR players basically need to shut up, stop rocking the boat, and suck it.

That sentiment quite frankly pisses me off. BT isn't the end all be all of tabletop games (even though it was my first FASA game). It's a great game and I do like playing it. I also like Shadowrun and want to see it continue to have a bright and vibrant future.

Those posters telling us to shut up and suck it can shove that condescending attitude. It doesn't help ANYONE and it certainly belies their own character.

My main concern now is if/when I will receive my SR4A LE I pre-ordered over a year ago followed by whether or not one of my favorite games will continue to live well.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Darthmord,

I do believe that Jason said that there were not any problems with SR4A LE and that it was going to be available shortly (I think that his post was in the second thread).

My suggestion for being of assistance would be to cheer on Randall, Jason and everyone else trying to fix things. I can't imagine that vitriol is going to encourage the folks at CGL (not that I am saying you have been vitriolic in anyway). For myself, I am going to pickup an extra copy of the main rule book...I think my bookshelf can handle one more book. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[raben-aas]

This was about to become the longest rant/bashing of a single person I ever wrote. Instead, I give you the index version:

- Pages 01 to 11: Introduction about why I'm pissed.
- Pages 11 to 52: General rant about how leaking letters is the reason behind any corporation's useal "black hole" information policy
- Pages 53 to 57: Calling various people pricks
- Pages 58 to 75: Dissecting Frank's personal agenda as master spy/super journalist
- Pages 76 to 86: Dissecting the logic behind giving Topps information they need to know by hiding it on DS forums
- Pages 87 to 88: More prick-calling
- Pages 89 to 254: Closing notes

AAS

[FrankTrollman]

Some of you seem to be having difficulties recalling the difference between right and wrong. The difference between legal and illegal. The difference between living up to your contracts and not doing so. The difference between truth and lies. Apparently, people are going to have to take a step back and think about those issues. And to aid with that, I will now make my seventh post on this forum in this ongoing discussion.

Right and Wrong

Stealing money from people is wrong. Helping your friends steal money is wrong. Rich people stealing money from poor people is more wrong, because it hurts the poor people more than it helps the rich people.What Loren Coleman did was wrong. What Randall Bills did was wrong. It is wrong because even if Randall is telling the truth, then he is at the very least giving Loren Coleman assistance while he steals money from people who have very much less than he does. That's wrong.

On the other hand, telling the truth is right. Lies are wrong, truth is right. It's that simple. Telling the truth about someone else doing wrong is the right thing to do. Saying nothing is the same thing as lying, and that is wrong. Telling the truth about someone else doing something wrong is right, and not wrong.

Legal and Illegal

Blowing the whistle on a crime is not itself a crime. Breaking a contract is not a crime, but having people work for you without paying them is not only a crime it is unconstitutional. We fought a war about it, look it up. Taking money without reporting it is also a crime. Being upset that you had signed a contract to get paid money and then not getting paid that money is not a crime.

Living up to your contracts

Do you know how much weight a contract of any kind has to cover up illegal activities? None whatsoever.
I am not under contract of any kind with Catalyst Game Labs. Catalyst Game Labs does not have NDA contracts for numerous employees. Even if they had those contracts on people who chose to divulge information through me, they would be unenforceable in the face of criminal activities.
Payment contracts are rather unambiguous. If the work is delivered, the payment is supposed to be rendered in accordance with that work. It is a demonstrable fact that people submitted real work that really got published by Catalyst Game Labs and then CGL failed to pay those monies. That is what an unambiguous breach of contract looks like. Not someone who may or may not have been under an NDA chose to come forward with evidence of criminal malfeasance. Someone who decided that instead of honoring their contracts to pay people money for real work that they really put in - to take that money and put it in their pants and dance around.

Truth and Lies

I have at all times attempted to impart information that is true about this ongoing crisis. This is in part because I don't like being proved wrong, and also because as previously noted Truth is good and Lies are bad. This means among other things that there are many accusations and suppositions that end up on my desk that don't get repeated - because I can't substantiate them. The statement by Randall Bills is from his mouth unedited. It is him putting the very best possible face on the situation. And while he prevaricates pretty well, he still straight up admits that the people who were supposed to hold Coleman's feet to the fire are Jennifer Harding and David Stansel, that they have quit, and that even now he has not found people to take over their duties (duties that included getting the money back from the Colemans). That's incredibly damning. But it's not half as damning as some of the things that I can't verify. These things include and are not limited to:

• Loren forcing David Stansel and Jennifer Harding out - with Randall's blessing because they were trying to get the money back.
• Randall Bills getting a cut of the money in exchange for his unwavering support of the Colemans.
• The Colemans refusing to sign the deal to pay the money back in the form of giving up portions of their ownership of the company to the other owners.
• Loren Coleman having misfiled the incorporation of IMR LLC in the first place, in an effort to deprive the other investors of their share of the company and then hiding that fraud by misreporting the company's income over a three year period.
• ... and so on and so on ...

These are mere accusations. I can't verify them, because they are each from just one or two people - and those people are admittedly super angry. But keep in mind, the part where Randall Bills is complicit in aiding Loren while he takes money out of the corporation that isn't his while the corporation is left unable to pay real people the real money that they are entitled to is his side of the story. The other side of the story exists, and it is worse.

And just to get that out there: yes, there are two sides. There are in fact more than two sides. And I am significantly far removed from the most anti-Loren Coleman of those sides. I have not suggested ripping his skin off, even in jest. I am not even unambiguously behind the people who quit (or were fired, if you go for the more strident accounts). Remember, David Stansel had exactly one job in human history as regards me: which was to get me my paycheck on time and in full for Augmentation back when it finally got printed in late 2007. He did not come through with that. My paycheck was late and short. I have given reviews of no less than three books written in part by Jennifer Harding (Feral Cities, Corporate Enclaves, and Runner's Companion). My reviews of those books were bad, and my reviews of the specific segments written by her were specifically bad. She's not the worst author in the world, but I'm on record panning her work. Those two people are not invited to my birthday party. But that doesn't mean that what was done to them was right. It was not. They are victims in the Catalyst audit and the fallout thereof, that much is clear.

Bringing the information forward was the right thing to do. Not because information wants to be free - because information doesn't want anything. But because Western Society wants information to be free. And as members of Western Society, it is our moral imperative to see that wrongdoing gets exposed, that lies are countered with truth, and that victims are afforded the vindication and support they deserve. And the fact that in my estimation, doing the right thing is the most likely path towards books coming out that I can buy, read, and enjoy - is certainly a plus.

-Frank

[Sengir]

1) NDA's are bad; I'll never work under one

Every employment contract I've seen so far includes some sort of confidentiality clause. So even if you never ever sign a seperate NDA (which, as several others have pointed out, might be difficult), you still are obliged to keep work-related things confidential and might lose your job if you don't.

[HentaiZonga]

Bringing the information forward was the right thing to do. Not because information wants to be free - because information doesn't want anything. But because Western Society wants information to be free. And as members of Western Society, it is our moral imperative to see that wrongdoing gets exposed, that lies are countered with truth, and that victims are afforded the vindication and support they deserve. And the fact that in my estimation, doing the right thing is the most likely path towards books coming out that I can buy, read, and enjoy - is certainly a plus.

-Frank

You know, Frank...

Thing is, every time I read something from you, you're right. Game mechanics, legality, process, what-have you... everything you say is barbed-wire-coated truth. I just wish to whatever powers run this universe that you'd say it less abrasively.

[krainboltgreene]

Soooooooo, when was dumpshock relocated to 4chan? Did I miss the advertisement (hey, look, a 4-syllabble word, does this mean I can go to college now?

My thoughts exactly, some people reducing this board to the level of 4chan.

Two people who have never read 4chan.

[BTFreeLancer]

These are mere accusations. I can't verify them, because they are each from just one or two people - and those people are admittedly super angry.

then by all means, give us their names so we can verify them. In the interest of transparency and all.

Frank, I honestly think you think you're doing the right thing. I truly do. I also see that you haven't thought this through long term.

I see you're studying to become a medical professional - kudos to you, we need more, and you're obviously not an idiot. But any ethics board worth its salt will do a background check; and stuff like this turns up. I'm not a full time freelancer, I have a day job, and like most freelancers I generally keep very quiet on the internet, because I'm not a nameless figure (I am in this case - hypocritical or not) - I have a net presence, published works, etc; and when I next go to an employer, and they type my name into a detailed search engine, they'll see me keeping quiet about most of everything, a few author credits here and there for a niche hobby, but nothing controversial.

when your name comes up in the integrity check process when you're being hired to handle confidential information (and remember, improper release of confidential patient information has led to several lawsuits lately) - what is your net presence going to say?

at the end of the day, this is a hobby. Burn your bridges within the community by all means. But be aware that you might also be burning future bridges too. Keep that in mind next time these "people" (who have protected themselves, at the expense of ypu) get you to post something. An employer isn't going to care if you've alienated yourself from a gaming community - they are very much going to care that you've been posting potentially libelous claims vis-à-vis confidential information.

This post has been edited by BTFreeLancer: Mar 29 2010, 10:27 AM

[krainboltgreene]

I see you're studying to become a medical professional - kudos to you, we need more, and you're obviously not an idiot. But any ethics board worth its salt will do a background check; and stuff like this turns up.

What kind of credentials do you have to back up this kind of statement?

[Ascalaphus]

What kind of credentials do you have to back up this kind of statement?

I seem to recall Frank himself telling about his studies when someone asked about it.