The CGL situation p3 Options

[X-Kalibur]

You're not wrong Walter, you're just an asshole

[Stahlseele]

People who are right often seem a bit assholish i think . .
As for raining kittehs:
it seems cats have fallen as far as 32 stories and when treated for their injuries lived to meow about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_righting_reflex

[Demonseed Elite]

So much speculation in this thread based on so little information. Stop and think about it a moment, folks. I realize this is all very exciting for the hardcore fans in this community, but you're all going on very little information. And most of that very little information that you have was supplied by Frank, whether him doing so was right or wrong. The freelancers have a bit more information, but they are still largely in the dark. The majority of information that the freelancers get comes from Catalyst. And let's be entirely honest, even in the best of times, communication between the freelancers and Catalyst management was virtually nil.

This thread keeps veering from hypothetical speculation ("This is a crime!" "No it's not!") to ridiculous tangent (Frank needing to beware future background checks). I suppose we're filling this stuff in because of the lack of actual information in its place, but while doing so, we're burying any potential news under lots and lots of noise. No one needs to worry about Frank except Frank (and possibly CGL). No one needs to worry about the freelancers except the freelancers, many of whom are already doing things to help themselves out. No one needs to worry about Catalyst except Catalyst (and maybe the IRS or authorities). The fans just need to decide whether, in light of everything going on or not, they want to continue buying books. And I think that's a decision each fan is capable of reaching on their own.

Time and the efforts of the involved parties will sort everything else out, for good or ill, and this thread will end up having very little impact on that outcome.

[Dwight]

Is it possible that if things work out the way AH and Trollman wants, that CGL falls apart and that Coleman gets sued, ShadowRun, the license, the freelancers, and pretty much all of the ShadowRun material may get entangled in litigation and lawsuits for the foreseeable future?

CGL would be dissolved and assets sold, potentially under the watch of a bankruptcy judge, or CGL would be sold off with a management reboot.

CGL does NOT own the Shadowrun license, it leases the right to use it from Topps. Normally these leases include clauses that terminate the lease immediately in cases like these. So that would be easy enough for a new company to pick up. But without purchasing CGL's assets (contracts and already created and released books, at least the core one), it'd be hard to realize the potential of the license without a 5th edition.

The good news is that any suit against Coleman would not need to hold up the sale [much] in the case of bankruptcy, unless there was some contention over who owned some portion of the existing book IP, CGL or Coleman.

EDIT: I'm not sure it is safe to assume what Ancient and Frank 'want'. Ancient, maybe. To me he clearly wants his writing for Shadowrun published again in some professional, official capacity. I'm not sure Frank thinks he actually has a chance at that. It seems to have gone very poorly last time, and not just between him and CGL regarding money. I'm not sure if he just wants to get kicks in when someone is down. *shrug*

[Stahlseele]

and now that the freelancers chose to withhold copyright on written stuff, the new owner would not need to buy CGL's stuff but simply go to the freelancers and have soemthing they can out out in about one month or so right?

[Dread Moores]

Maybe we should just rename this the "What's up with Frank?" thread? Because I'm pretty sure his personal life, course of studies, and current residency are pretty much not at all related to the CGL situation.

Also, to whoever a while back asked about reasons behind CGL employee resignations, I'd imagine that is best left undiscussed in public. There's some pretty strict rules regarding what companies can and can't reveal about circumstances of employee's departure, and a big potential for legal issues.

Edit: Also, read Mr. Elite's post up above. Twice. He's got the right of a lot of my thoughts on the matter.

[Dwight]

and now that the freelancers chose to withhold copyright on written stuff, the new owner would not need to buy CGL's stuff but simply go to the freelancers and have soemthing they can out out in about one month or so right?

On some of the newest stuff. Or at least the stuff not yet published, I'm not sure about the ones that freelancers are holding out for.

But without being able to sell the core book? That sounds like a dead end.

[Wandering One]

I'll try to keep this under TL:DR length...

I'm not sure if this falls under the freelancer's NDA's or not, from the language it did, but perhaps Jason will be kind enough to answer. I'm curious about the Freelancer's contracts, on a specific point. Was payment due on use and public release of the produced material, or on submittal/approval? My curiosity extends from wondering if CGL can withdraw their contracts by simply not using the material.

On another point, I'm curious how many people here who accuse Coleman of outright theft are familiar with corporate and business organizational laws (fed and otherwise). We have not seen the LLC agreement, which is incredibly flexible for setting up the corporate laws and payrates to individual members of the leadership. For example, in S and C corps (what people think of for a ,INC. type business), it's shared out directly to stock ownership, if cut from the company's profit and not as a paycheck. LLC's don't require this. Given the malleable nature of book-keeping (please, all you need to do is sneeze to get numbers the way you'd like 'em for a month, ie: when having to deal with a bank for asset-based lending), and having absolutely no clue what the LLC contract is, I could see money going sideways. We have no idea what exactly the rest of the stakeholders are dealing with, contractually, to consider this under the embezzlement laws, which specifically state you cannot be tried under them for a mistake, only willful hiding of the information (amongst other things).

That said, Randall Bills himself was enraged with his old friend, leading me to believe more happened... but provable, or even applicable to us? *shrugs* Private corporations have no need to release any data externally except to specific government agencies. It's the nice part about being a private company... noone to answer to but yourselves, unless you choose otherwise... not even the consumers.

[Stahlseele]

Well, most people and shops allready have the corebook right?

[Demonseed Elite]

I'm curious about the Freelancer's contracts, on a specific point. Was payment due on use and public release of the produced material, or on submittal/approval?

Payment is due 30 days after publication is the standard language.

My curiosity extends from wondering if CGL can withdraw their contracts by simply not using the material.

Yes.

[The Monk]

Well, most people and shops allready have the corebook right?

would all of the freelancers want to go to a new company? Especially if some did not get paid?

[JM Hardy]

I'll try to keep this under TL:DR length...

I'm not sure if this falls under the freelancer's NDA's or not, from the language it did, but perhaps Jason will be kind enough to answer. I'm curious about the Freelancer's contracts, on a specific point. Was payment due on use and public release of the produced material, or on submittal/approval? My curiosity extends from wondering if CGL can withdraw their contracts by simply not using the material.

[snip]

In the past, CGL has used contracts where payment was due a certain time period after acceptance of submitted material, as well as contracts where payment was due a certain period after submitted material was published. The contracts, as written, are fairly simple for either party to terminate.

Additionally, I appreciate DE's call for rationality. As I've mentioned before, we can all speculate for days and days (and already have!), but the proof of whether or not CGL will move forward will be measured in paying freelancers, renewing the license, and publishing new books. So I hope you understand if the bulk of our efforts focus on those three things.

Jason H.

[Stahlseele]

would all of the freelancers want to go to a new company? Especially if some did not get paid?

*shrugs*

[Dwight]

Well, most people and shops allready have the corebook right?

Shops having stock hardly generates revenue sales for the new licensee. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) My understanding is that the core book, along with older SR4 titles, continue to generate a baseline of income. There is natural turnover in a player base that having new core books help keep in, or close to, positive flow of potential customers for new products. As well if a game line is perceived as 'dead' then it's going to have a consumer confidence problem. The core rules being out of print is pretty damn close to 'dead'.

[The Monk]

Now for another Question:
What do you guess would happen of shadowrun did, in fact, go to another corporation and that corporation asked frank to come back and write for shadowrun?

We'll get brain hacking.

[Dwight]

@Dwight: you have more than 200 postings and registered january 2009, you don't count ^^

I generally keep my e-peen tucked in my pants but if you insist.... *unfurls and slaps it on the table* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

usually [Frank] does not say anything he can't prove to be correct more or less.

*cough* Er, he has a habit of making positively outrageous claims at times. He'll read a full novel inbetween lines, novels that aren't actually there. For better or worse he has a vivid imagination.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The core rules being out of print is pretty damn close to 'dead'.

Yeah, but that didn't happen the last two time either.

[Wandering One]

In the past, CGL has used contracts where payment was due a certain time period after acceptance of submitted material, as well as contracts where payment was due a certain period after submitted material was published. The contracts, as written, are fairly simple for either party to terminate.

[Snip]

Jason H.

and Demonseed, thank you for the information. It seems that CGL used both types from what you said above, Jason. I appreciate the quick reply.

[Dwight]

Yeah, but that didn't happen the last two time either.

No, it didn't. Because it is so important from a business perspective of the new publisher that it not happen.


P.S. Although there were some difficulties regarding PDFs, I believe.

[Cain]

So much speculation in this thread based on so little information. Stop and think about it a moment, folks. I realize this is all very exciting for the hardcore fans in this community, but you're all going on very little information. And most of that very little information that you have was supplied by Frank, whether him doing so was right or wrong. The freelancers have a bit more information, but they are still largely in the dark. The majority of information that the freelancers get comes from Catalyst. And let's be entirely honest, even in the best of times, communication between the freelancers and Catalyst management was virtually nil.

This thread keeps veering from hypothetical speculation ("This is a crime!" "No it's not!") to ridiculous tangent (Frank needing to beware future background checks). I suppose we're filling this stuff in because of the lack of actual information in its place, but while doing so, we're burying any potential news under lots and lots of noise. No one needs to worry about Frank except Frank (and possibly CGL). No one needs to worry about the freelancers except the freelancers, many of whom are already doing things to help themselves out. No one needs to worry about Catalyst except Catalyst (and maybe the IRS or authorities). The fans just need to decide whether, in light of everything going on or not, they want to continue buying books. And I think that's a decision each fan is capable of reaching on their own.

Time and the efforts of the involved parties will sort everything else out, for good or ill, and this thread will end up having very little impact on that outcome.

While you're right most of the time, Jay, I have to disagree on this one.

Dumpshock is the largest congregation of Shadowrun fans anywhere. There are people here who will buy steaming piles of dung if it's got "Shadowrun" printed on it. Heck, I used to be one of those people. If something happens that's big enough to turn off a large number of fans, that should have an effect on the Catalyst decision process. If only a hundred of us boycott CGL until, say, AH is reinstated as a freelancer, then that would have an effect. Granted, that was only an example, but you see my point. If enough of the hard-core fans are disgusted by the CGL politics, then this thread will have had an effect.

[Ancient History]

If only a hundred of us boycott CGL until, say, AH is reinstated as a freelancer, then that would have an effect. Granted, that was only an example, but you see my point. If enough of the hard-core fans are disgusted by the CGL politics, then this thread will have had an effect.

While I appreciate the thought, I wasn't "fired" from CGL, I willingly terminated my contracts because I didn't want to deal with certain people any more. This isn't a matter of myself or anyone else being "reinstated," this is ultimately a matter of personal and business relationships. I can state openly that CGL has not carried its end of things as far as business relationships go, because they have not (or cannot) fulfill their contracts. On the personal end of things, I didn't appreciate getting banned from the freelancer forums and Jason didn't appreciate that I told other freelancers in private that he was lying when he was talking about the Shadowrun production schedule.

The Loren Coleman/Randall Bills thing...little bit of both. I take responsibility for my own debts and fuck-ups, I expect people to take responsibility for theirs - particularly when some of the people impacted by their "financial mismanagement" happens to be my friends and myself. The perceived lack of direct consequences for Coleman's actions is extremely damaging to my perception of the trustworthiness of the company as a whole, and the "everything's going to be okay" attitude put forward by some is likewise infuriating. People have quit the company, copyrights are being withheld, freelancers are still unpaid - how not okay does the situation have to be before some people will admit that things aren't going to get better in the immediate future?

[tristanh]

Hush, don't startle the meatpuppets.

After the discussion was closed here, it moved elsewhere, bringing in new people to the discussion, when it came back here, some folks (myself included) followed. Just because someone is new posting to dumpshock doesn't make them a sockpuppet. But hey, assumptions and accusations are pretty much the crux of the thread, so whatever makes you feel better.

[Cergorach]

People have quit the company, copyrights are being withheld, freelancers are still unpaid - how not okay does the situation have to be before some people will admit that things aren't going to get better in the immediate future?

The container holding the SR4LE being put to fire with the owners and employees dancing around it (naked) and chanting "Die! Die! Die!"...

[tristanh]

The container holding the SR4LE being put to fire with the owners and employees dancing around it (naked) and chanting "Die! Die! Die!"...

Certainly would be tougher to explain away.

This post has been edited by tristanh: Mar 29 2010, 10:51 PM

[Dread Moores]

Dumpshock is the largest congregation of Shadowrun fans anywhere.

Online, sure. But we've made this same mistake on the BT forums, in assuming that the online forums are in any way representative of the whole of Battletech fanbase. A majority of Dumpshock could boycott until the cows come home, and it would likely be a tiny little drop in the bucket to the entire SR book buying fanbase. More power to you to make your voice heard, whether I agree with it or not. But don't mistake DS as the end all, be all representation of SR fans.