The CGL situation p3 Options

[Demonseed Elite]

While you're right most of the time, Jay, I have to disagree on this one.

Dumpshock is the largest congregation of Shadowrun fans anywhere. There are people here who will buy steaming piles of dung if it's got "Shadowrun" printed on it. Heck, I used to be one of those people. If something happens that's big enough to turn off a large number of fans, that should have an effect on the Catalyst decision process. If only a hundred of us boycott CGL until, say, AH is reinstated as a freelancer, then that would have an effect. Granted, that was only an example, but you see my point. If enough of the hard-core fans are disgusted by the CGL politics, then this thread will have had an effect.

But that's not happening here!

There's no such boycott. There isn't even any discussion of a boycott here. Maybe that would have an impact (though I've run into far more Shadowrun players who have not heard of Dumpshock that those who have), but the example you cited just isn't happening on this thread. Instead it's what I mentioned, a combination of hypothetical speculation and ridiculous tangents which serve no one.

[Bull]

Online, sure. But we've made this same mistake on the BT forums, in assuming that the online forums are in any way representative of the whole of Battletech fanbase. A majority of Dumpshock could boycott until the cows come home, and it would likely be a tiny little drop in the bucket to the entire SR book buying fanbase. More power to you to make your voice heard, whether I agree with it or not. But don't mistake DS as the end all, be all representation of SR fans.

Chiptruth, chummer.

I'd be shocked if Dumpshock represented more than 5% of the Shadowrun player-base, and even less than that of the Sales of hard-copy books (Since there's a few folks here who have said they only buy PDFs, and a few that won't touch most of the 4th ed products).

Dumpshock is not representative of Shadowrun fandom. Dumpshock is only representative of a small subset of fans, mainly hardcore, anal retentive fans and some of their friends who got dragged in. Hell, we're not even a good representative of Online Shadowrun fandom, because we've had a schism or two in the boards past (Bulldrek) and have permanently lost members during these events, and you go someplace like RPG.net and you realize there are a ton of Shadowrun fans and players there that don't post here. EIther because they only have time for one message board, they simply don't feel the need to discuss Shadowrun ad nauseum, or they've run into problems here (Most often because of the rather caustic and abrasive behavior of some of our regular posters, but also on a few occasions due to headbutting with one or more of the mods).

Bull

[Doc Byte]

Personally I have a problem with spreading confidential mails. Maybe a little parable will show why.


Imagine an unspecified clinic somewhere in the world!

Doctor: "Listen, a friend of mine's your husband's treating doctor. He's not free to tell you, your husband's chances of surviving the OP are only at 20%, because of his pledge of secrecy. Your husband doesn't want to worry you too much with this. But I think lies are a bad thing. As I don't even work at this hospital, I can tell you how ill your husband really is. In fact, too much agitation might kill him. - BTW, did you know, once I worked for your husband? He treated me really bad. I believe, he treats your kids bad, too. You'd be better of with another husband. Maybe you should make a scene in front of him. If he dies, you're free to marry someone else. That would be the best for your kids, I'm sure."


Don't get me wrong, I think we fans have some right to be informed about what's going on, but fighting fire with fire works rather poorly most of the time. In any case it leaves behind burned country.


PS: This post's not meant to be a personal attack, I only tried to point out the problematic nature of posting confidential information. Once you start with it, where do you draw the line and stop it again?

[Synner667]

Chiptruth, chummer.

I'd be shocked if Dumpshock represented more than 5% of the Shadowrun player-base, and even less than that of the Sales of hard-copy books (Since there's a few folks here who have said they only buy PDFs, and a few that won't touch most of the 4th ed products).

Dumpshock is not representative of Shadowrun fandom. Dumpshock is only representative of a small subset of fans, mainly hardcore, anal retentive fans and some of their friends who got dragged in. Hell, we're not even a good representative of Online Shadowrun fandom, because we've had a schism or two in the boards past (Bulldrek) and have permanently lost members during these events, and you go someplace like RPG.net and you realize there are a ton of Shadowrun fans and players there that don't post here. EIther because they only have time for one message board, they simply don't feel the need to discuss Shadowrun ad nauseum, or they've run into problems here (Most often because of the rather caustic and abrasive behavior of some of our regular posters, but also on a few occasions due to headbutting with one or more of the mods).

Bull

Well, Dumpshock is just another fansite...
...And there's lots of those out there.

[Brol_The_Mighty]

Well Doc, whereas I agree with you that the e-mail shouldn't have been posted up, that's more of a personal thing, then a legal thing (I think.) As far as I know, no laws were broken from the person doing so.

For anyone who worries that Doc's example could actually happen, be assured there are multiple laws that prevent such a thing. The main one being HIPAA which prevents your health workers from sharing your information unless there's need to know. Being a medic myself, I've had to deal with ackward situations due to this law. Like....not being able to tell my wife the results of her pregnancy test. Or telling a friend of mine that his wife has The Clap. However, in both cases.....eventually they both found out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ghremdal]

If it is not too much to ask, and not in breach of any contracts, what books need revising (new content/design due to freelancers terminating their contracts) before being published? I'm assuming its the Corporate Guide, 6th World Almanac, and Dawn of Artifacts 3&4. Are there any others?

Also if it is not too much to ask, how many freelancers work on a typical book (for example such as Vice, or Runners Companion)? Don't need anything specific, just a ballpark number.

[JM Hardy]

If it is not too much to ask, and not in breach of any contracts, what books need revising (new content/design due to freelancers terminating their contracts) before being published? I'm assuming its the Corporate Guide, 6th World Almanac, and Dawn of Artifacts 3&4. Are there any others?

Also if it is not too much to ask, how many freelancers work on a typical book (for example such as Vice, or Runners Companion)? Don't need anything specific, just a ballpark number.

Things are always subject to change; at the moment it's Corp Guide, Sixth World Almanac, and Runner's Toolkit needing revising, along with another book or two that I'm not sure has been announced yet. The number of freelancers changes from book to book, depending on the nature of the book. For reference, War! has around 4, Attitude has 10-12 or so. Runners' Companion has about 10 writers credited.

Jason H.

[Backgammon]

For the record, regarding this whole issue - I was far, far, FAR more upset about the "play a dragon" April Fool's prank last year than this whole thing. Just saying.

[Shrike30]

Dumpshock has managed to scrape up 18,000 members in 8 years, most of whom aren't active anymore. I'm pretty sure we're not a large sampling of the SR-playing general population. Hell, my gaming group only has two of it's members on here, and that's because I joined them THROUGH Dumpshock. It is interesting to see how many old names I'm seeing coming up out of the woodwork for this, though.

The piece of information I want to hear in any future press release would be release schedules. Details about all the drama over at CGL are mostly only going to serve to be fuel for speculation and rumormongering, not really something I think is particularly useful for CGL (although I'm sure there's plenty of folks out there who'd love the material). What's actually going to have some meaning outside of getting a peek at (theoretically) internal politics is when/if publication is going to be on track.

I don't think CGL has any obligation to explain what's going on in the office to the public, and would probably be best served by sticking to minimal, mostly functional information releases... because all that's going to happen with in-depth responses to particular questions is more supposition and rumor, combined with nitpicking and accusations as natural inconsistencies are inevitably found. I'm curious, of course, but I'd much rather be in the dark and have the games we play go on rocking than find out all the nasty details, throwing out the baby with the bathwater in the process.

[Method]

For anyone who worries that Doc's example could actually happen, be assured there are multiple laws that prevent such a thing.

This. There are federal laws that explicitly protect patient confidentiality.

Also (regarding previous posts), medical ethics don't really translate well to this kind of contractual/legal discourse because the the parties involved and their relationships aren't so clear cut. The physician's role in any medical ethical situation is clear: he has an implicit (and/or stated) ethical/moral/professional and legal obligation to the patient. Period. Any other consideration is secondary. To put it in more concrete terms: Does Frank have an obligation to protect CGL? Nope. Does his source? Maybe, but we don't know. Does any of this reflect on Frank's ethical fortitude? Well thats debatable.

For the record I don't know any doctors who would judge Frank ethically unfit based on his hobby or these events. But (just like in any other profession) you can bet your BBB that there are lots of potential employers that would think twice about hiring someone with such a history.

[Method]

The piece of information I want to hear in any future press release would be release schedules.

From the previous thread:

Ah, those questions I can answer (and some of this has been going on in a thread about the Sixth World Almanac). As far as products go, DotA 2 was on the verge of being released before things broke open. Management is at GTS this week, so updates from them will be sporadic, but I will hope to hear from them about getting that whole series moving again shortly.

My whole thinking on products is that we're better off finding ways to complete things that have been started rather than throw anything out (it's also better to pay freelancers for work they have done). The DotA series has had a lot of work put into it, so I will be working to find a way to complete it. And let's be honest--DotA 4 would be a ways down the line. If we get to the point where we can think about it coming out, that means that Catalyst still has the Shadowrun license, that at least some freelancers have been paid up, and in general progress is being made. If these things haven't happened, then DotA 4 (or anything else) will be tough to bring out. But as I've mentioned, it only makes sense for me to proceed as if things will come out, so that's what I'm doing--planning on DotA becoming unencumbered so we can make any adjustments that are needed and give the series the finish it deserves.

Other projects: Corp Guide and Sixth World Almanac were in their final stages (text drafted and edited, art done, etc.), but now some adjustments must be made. The past 24 hours have seen an extraordinary contributions from people stepping forward to pitch in in various ways, and that will help make those needed adjustments. These projects will be the focus of my efforts in the near future. Adjustments for Corp Guide aren't all that is needed--some payments will need to be made to get that out. Again, I'll be following up with management on that.

Runner's Toolkit is an interesting project, because it's layout-heavy with the extra things that go into it. Layout has not reviewed where the files stand, so I'll need to wait to see what kind of work needs to go into them. There is also a section of the Toolkit that needs to be rewritten.

Then there's War! and Attitude. I have lots of text for both books in hand. As with DotA4, by the time I around to them, I hope there will be more clarity on the license and freelancer situations so I can move ahead without problems. Much of the text for those books, though, is currently unencumbered.

After that we have some adventures that are drafted, and another thing I need to draw up a proposal for. And there's the unannounced project I've been doing a fair amount of work on, and those details would remain vague right now, no matter what Catalyst's financial status was. You didn't expect me to share everything, did you?

Jason H.

Not a schedule per se, but you can make of this what you will.

[Dread Moores]

I'm guessing War is a Fields of Fire type book (probably with some rigger gear in the mix as well). But what exactly is Attitude? That's the first I've heard that product name mentioned.

[Method]

I don't think they've released much info about it, but if I were to speculate based entirely on the title it is probably a "culture" type book, something along the lines of NAGTRL or SSG. Of course, my best guess means exactly nothing.

[Ol' Scratch]

I'm not very keen on these one-word titles as of late. They just don't feel as creative or interesting as some of the older titles.

[LurkerOutThere]

I'm not very keen on these one-word titles as of late. They just don't feel as creative or interesting as some of the older titles.

......really? This really sounds like complaining for the sake of complaining.

[Method]

What!? That never happens around here! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Dread Moores]

I'm not very keen on these one-word titles as of late. They just don't feel as creative or interesting as some of the older titles.

So I'm guessing you weren't much of a fan of the 1st edition core rulebook? Or the third edition book dealing with decking rules? Or Awakenings? Or the Harlequin or Imago adventures? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

Online, sure. But we've made this same mistake on the BT forums, in assuming that the online forums are in any way representative of the whole of Battletech fanbase. A majority of Dumpshock could boycott until the cows come home, and it would likely be a tiny little drop in the bucket to the entire SR book buying fanbase. More power to you to make your voice heard, whether I agree with it or not. But don't mistake DS as the end all, be all representation of SR fans.

I'm not; but even assuming that Dumpshock represents 5% of the fan base, that's still huge in terms of sales and numbers. Why do you think old-fashioned letter-writing campaigns still work, even in this day of email and tweets?

There's no such boycott. There isn't even any discussion of a boycott here. Maybe that would have an impact (though I've run into far more Shadowrun players who have not heard of Dumpshock that those who have), but the example you cited just isn't happening on this thread. Instead it's what I mentioned, a combination of hypothetical speculation and ridiculous tangents which serve no one.

Never said there was. A boycott is one example of what a disgusted fanbase could do. Or a letter-writing campaign. Basically, making your voice heard will stand out to any marketing department, and tell them they have a potential issue on their hands. It doesn't need to be a lot of people.

I'd be shocked if Dumpshock represented more than 5% of the Shadowrun player-base, and even less than that of the Sales of hard-copy books (Since there's a few folks here who have said they only buy PDFs, and a few that won't touch most of the 4th ed products).

Dumpshock is not representative of Shadowrun fandom. Dumpshock is only representative of a small subset of fans, mainly hardcore, anal retentive fans and some of their friends who got dragged in. Hell, we're not even a good representative of Online Shadowrun fandom, because we've had a schism or two in the boards past (Bulldrek) and have permanently lost members during these events, and you go someplace like RPG.net and you realize there are a ton of Shadowrun fans and players there that don't post here. EIther because they only have time for one message board, they simply don't feel the need to discuss Shadowrun ad nauseum, or they've run into problems here (Most often because of the rather caustic and abrasive behavior of some of our regular posters, but also on a few occasions due to headbutting with one or more of the mods).

Dumpshock might not be representative of Shadowrun fandom, but that doesn't mean it's not one of the loudest voices in fandom. We raised enough of a stink about certain rules that SR4.5 had to be released, with patches for some of the worst offenders. (And trust me, those patches are pretty obvious. However, that's a topic for another thread.) I know I personally helped raise such a ruckus over the Teamwork Test rules that they used the fix from Dumpshock (uncredited too, I might add). We fans can make our voices heard, and we can cause our game to become better as a result. If every active Dumpshocker sent CGL an email asking for the Colemans to be terminated, the company would have to sit up and take notice.

Now, I'm not calling for a letter-writing campaign just yet. I'm waiting to see how this plays out. However, seeing some good freelancers and employees being forced out really gets my goat. Running on just the verifiable facts, I think CGL has pulled some stinky moves, and it needs to stop.

[Axl]

I would like to read the content of the letter that Frank posted. Can someone PM me a link please?

[Stahlseele]

@Cain:
That probably only worked because most of the freelancers writing these books were frequenting these boards.
And Adam. And Jason. And Bishop. And Bull. And Jennifer. Now that there are so many people leaving who listen to us bitch and whine and moan?
It's probably not going to happen again.

[LurkerOutThere]

Cain:It is one thing to say that you have the ability to affect objective change or a subject that no one has any feelings about. But as evidenced the people involve obviously have some very personal feelings about it and are unlikely to reverse themselves. Further the "Fire the coleman's or i'll complain some more" part makes up at best half those here maybe even a majority here, but it is not the totality of users on here.

Besides if memory serves if the company actually did what you and others advocated SR4 would have never seen the light of day.

[Arclight]

Besides if memory serves if the company actually did what you and others advocated SR4 would have never seen the light of day.

And what a loss would have that been (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[BTFreeLancer]

getting selfish here, the only thing I want is the guys that leaked the letter to come forward. Not so they can be punished, sued, exiled whatever - I honestly don't care enough about the situation to worry about that. The money is more a case of principle than actual interest; I make in a day at my regular job what I generally get paid for each product. I'd like to be paid what I'm owed, but that's between me and CGL. I'm ambivalent about the letter becoming public too - my issue is that those responsible were stupid enough to make sure the pool of potential leaks was clearly defined as "freelancers", and that they didn't put their own names on the leak.

Frank's not even figuring into my thinking. I want the sources to come forward so my name, and the name of every other CGL freelancer who is not involved, is off the hook.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Not so they can be punished, sued, exiled whatever […]

Yeah, rrright.

[…] and that they didn't put their own names on the leak.

That's the whole point – see wikileaks.

[Saint Sithney]

I would like to read the content of the letter that Frank posted. Can someone PM me a link please?

the thread was reinstated after adjudication