The CGL situation p3 Options

[crizh]

As for what's going on right now, to the best of my knowledge Jason has asked another freelancer to re-write PACKS from scratch.

Which is going to be a metric shit ton of work if they can't use the material you created.

It had layout work done to it before Running Wild did it not?

[Stahlseele]

Meaning Runners toolkit probably won't be out for a longer time, since PACKS was, as far as i understood, more or less a complete random encounter creation system.

edit: *points at crizh* JINKS!

[knasser]

There are various stages of "finished." My 'final draft' was submitted sometime before SR4A went to print, because I had to revise it from SR4 to SR4A. Then several months later I added the Adept Sets. Then a couple weeks later I amended the Adept Sets at someone's request. Then, finally, it was proofed. Then I had to go back and fix the proofer's mistakes.

As for what's going on right now, to the best of my knowledge Jason has asked another freelancer to re-write PACKS from scratch.

I've been badgering a friend of mine to write a tool for my website that would be a kind of packs system, from what I'm guessing yours is. I actually tried to write one myself long ago with spreadsheets, but I didn't have the skills. If I'd known you were doing one, I'd possibly have held off. If Catalyst is re-writing yours, we'll probably just go ahead and put ours together and release it. I have less concern about clashing with them if that's so.

Though on a related note, it would have made more sense to pay you for the work you'd done than to hire someone new to do it. After all, they have to avoid any neat solutions that would be a copy of your work, there are deadline issues, the editing and review cycle to go through again. The only way in which it is more logical to hire someone new than to pay you for yours, is if they aren't going to pay the new person but reckon they can get the product anyway. I wonder if that has occured to your replacement.

K.

[Jaid]

I've lost many things that I consider valuable. More than I can be bothered to detail here but how about we start with Ancient's PACKS material. I've been waiting a long time to see that in print and to have the opportunity to discuss it on DS. It should have seen print long before the likes of Running Wild, as far as I know it's been finished for months. God knows how Jason plans on having that work replaced if AH retains the copyrights.

1) you never had that.
2) you still haven't lost it, yet. assuming CGL survives, there will be a replacement for the material. assuming CGL doesn't survive and is replaced, the stated plan is for ancient history to propose it to the new company.

now, if it is replaced, will it be as good as what AH would have done? i don't know. i know AH does good work, but i don't even know who they are getting to replace him, let alone whether that person or people produce quality work... but until i see it, i have no reason to automatically assume it's going to suck just because AH didn't write it.

AH is a good writer. he is not the *only* good writer.

[Ancient History]

Which is going to be a metric shit ton of work if they can't use the material you created.

It had layout work done to it before Running Wild did it not?

It was in layout at one point, but given the number of changes made during proofing, it probably would have had to be laid out again.

I did something around 1,250 - 1,500 calculations for PACKS, at a conservative minimum. I think proofers found about 250 mistakes - wrong prices, bad addition, wrong word choice, etc. Of those, I think about 50 were "wrong" and had to be fixed - either because the proofers were actually incorrect in their math/judgment, or because their "fixes" screwed up the profile/kit. Mark Dynna did good proofing work, because we talked about the design philosophy and his changes were always in-line with how I built the profiles, aiming always for certain design parameters. Others, not so much.

[Stahlseele]

I wonder if this has occured to ANY new Freelancers CGL hired over the last time.

[Jaid]

I've been badgering a friend of mine to write a tool for my website that would be a kind of packs system, from what I'm guessing yours is. I actually tried to write one myself long ago with spreadsheets, but I didn't have the skills. If I'd known you were doing one, I'd possibly have held off. If Catalyst is re-writing yours, we'll probably just go ahead and put ours together and release it. I have less concern about clashing with them if that's so.

Though on a related note, it would have made more sense to pay you for the work you'd done than to hire someone new to do it. After all, they have to avoid any neat solutions that would be a copy of your work, there are deadline issues, the editing and review cycle to go through again. The only way in which it is more logical to hire someone new than to pay you for yours, is if they aren't going to pay the new person but reckon they can get the product anyway. I wonder if that has occured to your replacement.

K.

CGL didn't pull the contract, ancient history did.

he was understandably mad about being told to shut up, and presumably about being given no further work as a freelancer (essentially, if not quite officially yet when he terminated his contract)

[knasser]

1) you never had that.

By the same logic, if nasty me decides to cancel your Christmas come next December, you've not lost anything because you never had that.

And no, the shaky promise that there will be an equivalent Winter Festival and presents does not sufficiently reassure.

K.

[Stahlseele]

By the same logic, if nasty me decides to cancel your Christmas come next December, you've not lost anything because you never had that.

And no, the shaky promise that there will be an equivalent Winter Festival and presents does not sufficiently reassure.

K.

*points at AH*
do those numbers scare you yet Khadim? *snickers*

[knasser]

CGL didn't pull the contract, ancient history did.

he was understandably mad about being told to shut up, and presumably about being given no further work as a freelancer (essentially, if not quite officially yet when he terminated his contract)

I'm sorry, you seem to have mistaken me for someone who needs other people's posts to be explained to him. Ah yes, there's Ancient History's post a few above yours. Hmmm. He appears to have been kicked out for making truthful statements to another person over a private 1 to 1 conversation.

Tell you what, why don't you let AH say what AH thinks and feels. He does it better than you.

K.

[crizh]

1) you never had that.
2) you still haven't lost it, yet. assuming CGL survives, there will be a replacement for the material. assuming CGL doesn't survive and is replaced, the stated plan is for ancient history to propose it to the new company.

now, if it is replaced, will it be as good as what AH would have done? i don't know. i know AH does good work, but i don't even know who they are getting to replace him, let alone whether that person or people produce quality work... but until i see it, i have no reason to automatically assume it's going to suck just because AH didn't write it.

AH is a good writer. he is not the *only* good writer.

1) I'm not entirely sure I'm at liberty to deny that.

2) If Catalyst survives the replacement will be significantly different, the work AH did will be lost. If they don't Ancient's work might yet see the light of day.

The replacement work might be up to the same quality, who can tell, but it will be a massive amount of work and the product will be delayed. I only have so much time, I consider all of it to be valuable, I don't want to wait another year for this material and I want to get the material AH produced which I know to be good.

[Ancient History]

Meaning Runners toolkit probably won't be out for a longer time, since PACKS was, as far as i understood, more or less a complete random encounter creation system.

Random, no. This wasn't a "roll on table 3 and table 4, add the results together and there's your PC/NPC." PACKS was designed to speed and facilitate character creation, but not to the roll a couple dice/press a button level. You still had to, for example, buy attributes (though any attribute requirements for the profile(s) were given).

Though on a related note, it would have made more sense to pay you for the work you'd done than to hire someone new to do it. After all, they have to avoid any neat solutions that would be a copy of your work, there are deadline issues, the editing and review cycle to go through again. The only way in which it is more logical to hire someone new than to pay you for yours, is if they aren't going to pay the new person but reckon they can get the product anyway. I wonder if that has occured to your replacement.

Jason offered to continue to pay me for my work on PACKS and other drafts. I don't believe that I (or any other freelancer) would actually get paid, despite Jason's promises, so I terminated the contracts entirely. I'm not willing to get down on my knees and beg to be paid, and no one else is going to get down on his knees and beg me not to take my drafts and go home. (Honestly, I think Jason was glad to be rid of me. We butted heads a lot.)

[Stahlseele]

Random, no. This wasn't a "roll on table 3 and table 4, add the results together and there's your PC/NPC." PACKS was designed to speed and facilitate character creation, but not to the roll a couple dice/press a button level. You still had to, for example, buy attributes (though any attribute requirements for the profile(s) were given).


Jason offered to continue to pay me for my work on PACKS and other drafts. I don't believe that I (or any other freelancer) would actually get paid, despite Jason's promises, so I terminated the contracts entirely. I'm not willing to get down on my knees and beg to be paid, and no one else is going to get down on his knees and beg me not to take my drafts and go home. (Honestly, I think Jason was glad to be rid of me. We butted heads a lot.)

ok, that actually makes it worse.
what with SR4's creation rules, this has to be an metric ass load ton of work x.x

[Jaid]

I'm sorry, you seem to have mistaken me for someone who needs other people's posts to be explained to him. Ah yes, there's Ancient History's post a few above yours. Hmmm. He appears to have been kicked out for making truthful statements to another person over a private 1 to 1 conversation.

Tell you what, why don't you let AH say what AH thinks and feels. He does it better than you.

K.

this isn't anything new. AH has said what happened in this situation several times in this discussion already. not in a hidden way either, he flat out told us exactly what he did. given you were acting in a manner that indicated you didn't know that, i felt it cogent to point out that we already have that information, and that no speculation is actually required. if you don't want me to tell you what information is already given to us, then don't ask for it.

[knasser]

Random, no. This wasn't a "roll on table 3 and table 4, add the results together and there's your PC/NPC." PACKS was designed to speed and facilitate character creation, but not to the roll a couple dice/press a button level. You still had to, for example, buy attributes (though any attribute requirements for the profile(s) were given).

Ah that's interesting. This is different to what we're cooking up then. What we are planning is something tentatively called the 'GruntMeister' (I wish I'd thought of that name). Basically, it's a four or five click process to making grunts or fairly generic NPCs. Pick a metatype, pick a base attribute profile (medium physical, advanced mental, etc), pick an implant package (none, cheap close combat, advanced tank package, etc) and pick a gear package (cheap ranged, heavy weapons, etc). Press download and you get your grunt sheet. Yours sounds a great deal more sophisticated.

[Demonseed Elite]

This bothers me. I've long appreciated Peter Taylor's work and his readiness to answer questions and provide insights here on Dumpshock. Not to put too fine a point on it, he's been a big part of Shadowrun 4th Edition. When the goodbye thread appeared on Dumpshock, it was a real loss to see him go but there was never any hint from him that the reason was other than his choosing to take on different things.

If Peter Taylor left because Catalyst were mucking him around, then I'm even more pissed off with them than I am now. I don't know the guy, but I know his work.

K.

This is where I say I hate to speak for Peter, but despite the farewell thread on this forum, leaving as line developer wasn't his choice.

[Dread Moores]

There's been a few mentions of the freelancers still not being paid, especially after books were pulled. And that seems to be an ongoing concern, in a lot of this discussion.

Jason, is it possible to mention to management that it would be possibly beneficial to drop another press release when repayment has begun? It might help to give a little feedback to the community that way. Not that numbers or anything would be needed, simply just "Hey, that plan we set up...we started it. Checks have been cut." I realize GAMA/Topps meeting will delay things, but just a suggestion to pass along.

I also realize there's some folks who think that repayment won't happen. And you might very well be right, I have no idea. I'm just asking if it does, it'd probably help to let the fanbase know. Since you know, it's been an oft-discussed issue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[knasser]

if you don't want me to tell you what information is already given to us, then don't ask for it.

I didn't. And given that his own post is just a little way above yours, I wonder why you felt the need to start telling people what he said. All you did was change it to put a different emphasis on it, saying how "he got mad", etc.

K.

[crizh]

Hey, AH, would you be willing to post some builds on the Cast of Shadows thread using some of the kits as a basis? You wouldn't be releasing any of the material, just a character built using it.

Some of the more eclectic stuff was fascinating.

(cough###Gunsel karc*st##cough##)

[Ancient History]

Ah that's interesting. This is different to what we're cooking up then. What we are planning is something tentatively called the 'GruntMeister' (I wish I'd thought of that name). Basically, it's a four or five click process to making grunts or fairly generic NPCs. Pick a metatype, pick a base attribute profile (medium physical, advanced mental, etc), pick an implant package (none, cheap close combat, advanced tank package, etc) and pick a gear package (cheap ranged, heavy weapons, etc). Press download and you get your grunt sheet. Yours sounds a great deal more sophisticated.

This is pretty similar to the original idea behind PACKS, something called "Tier-based Character generation." The initial idea was, basically, to simplify character generation by having three preset "tiers" that would present several options instead of the typical point system, and you would add the options from the different tiers up (the math worked out ahead of time so you didn't break any of the regular chargen rules, which is the tricky part). I don't know if I have my notes on it still. Anyway, PACKS was an offshoot of that, designed to be mostly compatible with the third "tier" - a 100 BP "profile" of a character in a certain career.

[emouse]

Sounds serious, we should take up a collection so that CGL can hire some private investigators to bring this traitor to justice. Non-payment for services rendered is completely understandable but death's too good for someone who leaks a memo.

So, instead of 'memo', replace it with 'bank account balance and a portion of production expenses'. I wasn't referring to the email Frank posted. If it was, indeed, sent to people who were not under an NDA, then it was eventually going to get to the public somehow. I was referring to his original post that started this all, which included some hard numbers which would not have been sent out in a memo but would have been known by only a select few who actually work for Catalyst.

He has further hinted at getting additional insider info from people who work or at Catalyst.

Non-payment for services is indeed bad, and it's breaking a contract.
Disclosing private information is also bad, and it's breaking a contract.

Both can be justified under certain circumstances, but I don't think that anything in this situation justifies either.

[Ancient History]

Hey, AH, would you be willing to post some builds on the Cast of Shadows thread using some of the kits as a basis? You wouldn't be releasing any of the material, just a character built using it.

Some of the more eclectic stuff was fascinating.

(cough###Gunsel karc*st##cough##)

I'm gonna hold off on it for just the moment because a) if CGL folds I can sell it to the next company and b) if CGL doesn't fold, someone else has already expressed a modicum of interest ($$$) in it, so they get first dibs. Worst comes to worst, I'll just publish the whole thing online, warts and all.

[crizh]

someone else has already expressed a modicum of interest ($$$) in it

Good.

Bloody right too.

[emouse]

Jason, is it possible to mention to management that it would be possibly beneficial to drop another press release when repayment has begun?

Assuming that info doesn't get leaked first! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

But seriously, that is probably a good idea. Hopefully it'll come to pass.

[emouse]

I'm gonna hold off on it for just the moment because a) if CGL folds I can sell it to the next company and b) if CGL doesn't fold, someone else has already expressed a modicum of interest ($$$) in it, so they get first dibs. Worst comes to worst, I'll just publish the whole thing online, warts and all.

Something that could be awesome is an app version of it. I don't know what sort of deal is in place for the Heavy Metal Pro guy to do what he does. I know when you buy the software, you buy it from him, so he doesn't have to worry about Catalyst's financial situation, other than having to deal with some new license holder should his license come up for renewal.