The CGL situation p3 Options

[knasser]

You realize of course the Managing Developer of CGL is the co-owner, and the person who has the *most* at stake here.

This isn't meant confrontationally, but I'm not sure what your point with this is. Presumably you are saying that this person is subject to greater pressure to spin or present things in a particular way? That may be so, but the letter seemed genuine enough to me. (Reason being if it were spin, it would have omitted parts that didn't help its case).

If you're saying that he has some sort of higher priority in all this due to his stake in the company, then I'm not entirely sure in what regard you mean. That his decisions should count for more? That his opinion should be more highly regarded? I essentially stated that the letter appeared to be true and stated that it confirmed implicitly a lot of what had been said regarding Loren Coleman purloining funds. His position actually supports my statement, doesn't it?

I would comment on your view that he has the most at stake. I would actually, politely, dispute that. My view is that those who have the most at stake are the people who play Shadowrun and worry for how this may impact the game. This is cumulative of course, but cumulatively the value that the Shadowrun players attach to the game dwarves any individual interest and this forum focuses that cumulative interest of the Shadowrun community. Many of us have put enormous amounts of time and effort into this game. I myself have spend hundreds of hours of my time producing material for it (check out my site - and that's only a fraction of what I've posted historically). It's my personal morality here, but I place the contributions of all the people who wrote the game, edited it, layed it out, as highest in terms of value to the game. So basically, I'm flat out rejecting those posters that say we have no legitimate interest in what goes on because we're not financially involved. There's about £200 of Shadowrun books right next to me as I type. Of course I have a stake in this as does everyone else here. And put us all together...

some of us received the letter by private email. If it was on a private forum, that's where it should have stayed.

I would be unlikely to forward on a private correspondence of this nature myself. However, the contents of it are relevant, offering confirmation of things as it does and clearly somebody on the recipient list felt that it should have been shared. I understand that along with FrankTrollman, the suspected leaker has also been banned from Dumpshock. That's unfortunate as it starts to seem that the DS mods are being drawn into some sort of party line on this. I'm surprised if this is so, but note that contrary to statements earlier, as of the time I'm typing right now, posting this private letter is not against the TOS listed on DS, I just checked.

And what gives them that right?

Well, to turn it around, what gives anyone else the right to stop them? If they feel that this is important enough to go public with, then that is a decision for them to make. Perhaps it's borderline - the letter only confirms what we pretty much knew - but clearly they felt it should be shared. That person clearly felt it was less moral to be having all this going on behind the scenes without the community knowing what was going on. There's an alternative in that they shared this just to be spiteful, but in this case, and without going into details, I don't believe that to be the case. It's unfortunate that an email intended to be semi-private became widely public in the sense of a breach of expected trust. But someone obviously felt the greater wrong was to keep it hidden.

You view this as a Catalyst matter and don't think it is the right of a few individuals to make the decision to share inside discussions with outsiders. I understand that and it's fair. But clearly someone also viewed themselves as part of the Shadowrun community and given the contents of this letter, that trumped CGL for them. Were they right to do so?

The ultimate question in all this is not whether we like a statement or not, but whether it is true.

You know over the years I have been required to sign something known as a NDA...(Non Disclosure Agreement) and I am betting the individual or individuals that requested Frank act as proxy had signed one as well.

So...yeah somebody(s) intentionally bypassed their NDA...they have every reason to be worried about being blacklisted within the industry.

I don't know this, but I would imagine the NDA covers the actual content and proposed content of the game, not emails about personal decisions to forgive the Colemans for their actions. There would be a legal expectation of confidentiality for some of the CGL employees about internal financial matters, but I'd be surprised if that affected freelancers contributing game material.

i say we point the hose on supposedly white horse frank is riding around on.

it would not surprise me the least that it turns out to be painted...

I've always had a lot of respect for you on these forums, hobgoblin, but I'm unsure where you're coming from here. Are you suggesting that some of what Frank is posting is not true? If so, which parts? He's been fairly scrupulous here and elsewhere about supporting his statements. Unfortunately, now that's he's banned, he can't reply to comments like the above.

K.

[Grexul]

You're up too 10 now so you should be able too PM now.

Man i went to get some sleep and thread2 went into meltdown.

Yes, I have PMed Adam and hopefully will receive an answer soon.

As for Frank's posting of said letter and his 'analysis' thereof, both probably contributed to his ban.

Grexul

[Celt IMC]

Bleh. I've seen the letter elsewehere on the web and it doesn't seem to do anything but confirm the info we already had. As has been pointed out, I don't see how Frank's posting it was a violation of DumpShock's ToS. I didn't see the sideshow that sprang off from whatever comment on Bills' faith was submitted, but all that is pretty irrelevant to the issue which is within the scope of our shared interest in ShadowRun and CGL's welfare. It sounds like suspension and bannings may have been earned by someone, and those posts deleted.

I don't think the thread as a whole needed to be deleted as there was worthwhile reporting, commentary and speculation there. If Frank was banned solely for posting the letter, and someone else suspected of being the leaker suspended, there's nothing in the ToS to apparently support it. If that's the case, then IMO, bad show, DS, bad show.

[fistandantilus4....]

As for Frank's posting of said letter and his 'analysis' thereof, both probably contributed to his ban.

Grexul

If Frank gets banned, it will be because of violations to the Terms of Service. I've seen a lot of personal attacks on these last couple of pages by numerous individuals. We have a little pow wow going on at the moment. When that's finished, Warnings/Breaks will be sent out as appropriate. In the mean time, keep it civil. Personal attacks and

any form of racism, sexism or religious intolerance.

are violations to the ToS.

[fistandantilus4....]

Grexul

My screenname is missing an 'x'.

Noted. I'll be getting to that.

Thanks Doc.

[JM Hardy]

From Catalyst's NDA:

1. Confidential Information
As used in this Agreement, “Confidential Information” means all information of either party that is not generally known to the public, whether of a technical, business or other nature (including, without limitation, trade secrets, know-how and information relating to the technology, customers, business plans, promotional and marketing activities, finances and other business affairs of such party), that is disclosed by the Disclosing Party to the Receiving Party, and that has been identified as being proprietary and/or confidential or that by the nature of the circumstances surrounding the disclosure ought to be treated as proprietary and confidential. Confidential Information also includes all information concerning the existence and progress of the parties’ dealings

I believe that makes it pretty clear that the letter is covered.

Jason H.

[fistandantilus4....]

Part of our discussion is whether or not that constitutes the same as "pirated"

5. No posts that contain pirated materials, requests for pirated materials, or advocacy of pirating are permitted.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I believe that makes it pretty clear that the letter is covered.

So the CGL NDA is part of the DS ToS now?

[fistandantilus4....]

Did I say that?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

After checking, I'm relieved that I referenced the correct person I quoted.

Sorry for any confusion caused.

[JM Hardy]

So the CGL NDA is part of the DS ToS now?

I didn't say that either. People asked what would be covered by the NDA; I answered. I didn't say anything about Dumpshock's response.

Jason H.

[Delarn]

So the CGL NDA is part of the DS ToS now?

And it's a good thing. DS is the Official forum after all.

Frank should be sued for his actions. He infringed confidentiality. Even if he was a proxy for a ranting freelancer that freelancer should have all his work done under the NDA taken and given to CGL without payment, for the NDA infringement. That freelancer should also post an official excuse to this board or to CGL. He humiliated CGL and should be humiliated in return.

I'm sorry to burst like that but it is just stupid to have done that.

My appologies to all that can be offuscated by that post. but it's my thought about the subject. Give your stuff and apologise. Then the community may or may not accept it.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Did I say that?

I didn't say that either.

So I'm also relieved that both DS and CGL staff do not express the notion that terms of the CGL freelancer agreement apply as part of the DS user agreement.

[LurkerOutThere]

Actually DS is not the official forums, we're' quite unofficial in fact, Dumpshock is also a private entity and not a democracy which teands to mean it's moderations can ban whoever they choose. As great an advocate of liberty as I am it works both ways. Having said that yes this would fall quite squarly under a violation of the NDA Jason posted and the piracy clause of the TOS.

I continue to believe that the freelancers that linked the document committed an ethical breach, as did Frank.

[Delarn]

Actually DS is not the official forums, we're' quite unofficial in fact, Dumpshock is also a private entity and not a democracy which teands to mean it's moderations can ban whoever they choose. As great an advocate of liberty as I am it works both ways. Having said that yes this would fall quite squarly under a violation of the NDA Jason posted and the piracy clause of the TOS.

I continue to believe that the freelancers that linked the document committed an ethical breach, as did Frank.

I was just angry on that previous post of mine.

[Ancient History]

You're assuming Frank got it directly from a freelancer, instead of second or third hand, and also that the person ultimately responsible for the leak was even covered by an NDA, which I believe many of them are not.

Ultimately, as far as the contents of the letter are concerned, there's not a great deal in there that Catalyst hasn't already posted or that most people following the situation could reasonably guess. The worst part about the letter being leaked is that Randall et al. will probably communicate even less with the freelancers than they do already, for fear of it getting out to the public at large. A very unfortunate turn of events, and indicative of the lack of trust that already exists in the organization.

[knasser]

I'm going to somewhat withdraw my comments from above. It isn't good that communications meant personally get posted online. It depends on the content, really. Someone tells you confidentially that they're going to blow up parliament, you do have to set that above the wrongness of breaching confidentiality (actually, parliament's a bad example... let's say a hospital). Where does this sit on the scale of things? Everyone will have a different take on things. Someone could have just said: "there's a letter which confirms fraud and the CGL Managing Developer takes the position of forgive and forget" and that could have been sufficient. But I suppose you'd have then got some people doubting it or saying "no proof!", so the approach that was taken was understandable.

I'm going to say one thing on the subject of religion (no don't panic mods, this is okay) and it's that religious / spiritual forgiveness is not intrinsically tied to lack of punishment nor is repentence tied to lack of sentence, neither in Christianity or Islam. So the religious angle is irrelevant here.

Peace,

K.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

And it's a good thing.

Chilling effects are never a good thing.

Frank should be sued for his actions.

There is nothing to gain from that but nuclear PR.

It isn't good that communications meant personally get posted online.

To be perfectly fair, posting private messages to the public is pretty much the most severe breach of netiquette possible.

[Sengir]

Well, I guess nobody doubted that the person who originally leaked the info to FT (or to the person who then gave it to a person who then gave it to him) violated the standard confidentiality clause in his or her contract (never seen one witout it) and/or a seperate NDA. Trollman on the other hand was just acting as a private person.


Anyway, what I find interesting is the timeline that is beginning to emerge: Towards the end of last year, people figured out that private and business funds had been mixed up and began to analyze the situation and write a plan how to unwist that mess. Towards the end of the process first the operations manager jumps ship, then on the day the final report is delivered the bookkeeper does the same. The next day the news break and everybody goes into headless chicken mode...that is, except on cbt.com, where the admins aparently never heard of Mrs. Streisand (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Kid Chameleon]

I would comment on your view that he has the most at stake. I would actually, politely, dispute that. My view is that those who have the most at stake are the people who play Shadowrun and worry for how this may impact the game.

Really? The few people employed by Catalyst are relying on this for their livelihood not just so they can enjoy a few hours. To propose that you would lose more because you past time isn't being produced for you is ridiculous when compared to people being unable to provide for their families. I find that the priorities you are displaying here are out of wack with reality.

[fistandantilus4....]

After checking, I'm relieved that I referenced the correct person I quoted.

Sorry for any confusion caused.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

DS is the Official forum after all.

Nope. Sorry.

At this point, Frank is not suspended. For a nice dose of transparency, he has been issued a Warning for his comments in regards to religion. That's a ToS violation. It's also his 8th violation on record. We generally follow a 10 step process where #10 is a Permaban. That has been superceded before, when a particular poster asked to be banned and we obliged. In other words, there can be special circumstances if the privelege is abused. That isn't the case at the moment.

As to the internal emails of Catalyst, that is still being debated. We prefer to wait for all of our mods to sound off on issues like this so we can speak with a general consensus when something isn't clear cut under the ToS. So at this point, the only debate would be whether or not the infamous e-mail falls under "piracy".

Obviously everyone has a lot of personal feelings invested on all sides, myself included. We're doing our best to put those aside and do our jobs, namely abiding by the rules we set out under the Terms of Service, just as everyone else is. So that's it for the moment. Play nice, no more name calling. Some more Warnings will likely be going out to individuals, but those will be (hard to say this with a straight face) internal, unlike what we've seen here. Obviously trust is getting burned on both ends, so we're trying to be very transparent here.

If you have questions regarding that, feel free to voice them. But don't do it in this thread. Take it to the "Bugs/news" thread. We'd like to make an effort to keeping this one on topic.

[knasser]

And it's a good thing. DS is the Official forum after all.

No it isn't.

Frank should be sued for his actions. He infringed confidentiality. Even if he was a proxy for a ranting freelancer that freelancer should have all his work done under the NDA taken and given to CGL without payment, for the NDA infringement. That freelancer should also post an official excuse to this board or to CGL. He humiliated CGL and should be humiliated in return.

If you commit massive fraud, you shouldn't put the blame for any "humiliation" on the people who comment about it. You seem to be putting CGL on some sort of pedestal, thinking they have some privilege of some kind. My loyalty is to the game. If people like Adam Jury and Ancient History (his DS name is what I mentally know him as) are walking due to disagreements with Catalyst, I want to know about it. I have an interest in knowing about it. Frank's involvement with Shadowrun predates the very existence of Catalyst. Any loyalty he has is to the game, not the company that is licensing the rights. He doesn't work for them. He shouldn't be sued for "infringing confidentiality", his actions have brought all this to our attention and given the freelancers - who are far more the core of this game than Catalyst is - greater leverage.

Wrongs have been done. I fail to see why you think someone should be sued for exposing them. (Not that he could be).

[knasser]

Really? The few people employed by Catalyst are relying on this for their livelihood not just so they can enjoy a few hours. To propose that you would lose more because you past time isn't being produced for you is ridiculous when compared to people being unable to provide for their families. I find that the priorities you are displaying here are out of wack with reality.

You didn't read my post. I said the community has the greatest stake in the success of the game. I may have only donated a few hundred hours to writing materials for the game. The thousands upon thousands of people who play it and have bought the books - no individual's interests in Shadowrun come close the scale of interest of the community as a whole. My meaning was very clearly stated.

[Demonseed Elite]

Ultimately, as far as the contents of the letter are concerned, there's not a great deal in there that Catalyst hasn't already posted or that most people following the situation could reasonably guess. The worst part about the letter being leaked is that Randall et al. will probably communicate even less with the freelancers than they do already, for fear of it getting out to the public at large. A very unfortunate turn of events, and indicative of the lack of trust that already exists in the organization.

I agree with AH. As outspoken as I tend to be about Catalyst's mistreatment of freelancers, I'd have preferred that the letter to freelancers was not posted to the public. It accomplished little unless you believed Catalyst's press release word-for-word, in which case I have a bridge I would like to sell you. But it will accomplish a great deal in further breaking down the trust between freelancers and the publisher, trust which up until this point had been mostly damaged by Catalyst, not by the freelancers themselves. But when freelancers start taking communications meant for them to the public, that dynamic changes. I can understand that some freelancers are angry and it's also possible that they didn't realize it would be released publicly, but it does more damage than good.

[LurkerOutThere]

And how has said community been harmed?

A couple of scenarios

CGL gets it's act together, retains the license and pays it's debts: Minimal harm, potential loss of talent already gone.
CLG folds: Delay in production likely of a year while new operation spins up, all the problems of above plus the possibility that none of the freelancers return.

Now since people have called the Coleman's and Bill's judgement into question: It's their call to make, it's their choice to make, business entities are seldom a democracy. THe players can vote with their wallets if they find the quality lowered, the freelancers can vote with their talent by working elsewhere and withholding copyright. Not what I think i'd do but then again I'm not in their situation and not owed money, I tend to get terribly annoyed when i am owed and not paid so I understand others doing the same.

However a line has been crossed by some where they endeaver to ruin the company and drag peoples name through the mud, question their judgement, and insult their beliefs. I don't know why that's cool on the internet, it historically goes over very poorly face to face.

Final ponderance: In just under 6 hours I will be running a game of shadowrun at my FLGS. Nothing that occurs with CGL or this debate will affect that. Even if CGL folds none of it will cause my hard copies to combust or my PDF's to delete themselves. But the damage to peoples reputation's is more permanent I would urge everyone, including Frank to consider that before escalating this llittle nothing into something more. If you are owed funds by the company I have no right to advise you on your course of action, but everyone else should probly unplug for a moment and take a few deep breaths.